1 minute ago, TauntaunScout said:Well it’s not up to them to explain why they want 6 battle droids for people with different motivations. “Why” is irrelevant to the discussion of monetary pros and cons.
Apparently they didn't want the items that badly then. The increased cost on troopers was obviously too much for a lot of people seeing as how they are both currently sold out...
2 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:Apparently they didn't want the items that badly then. The increased cost on troopers was obviously too much for a lot of people seeing as how they are both currently sold out...
That's seemingly at least partially due to shortages, not necessarily a greater demand than for previous product.
3 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:That's seemingly at least partially due to shortages, not necessarily a greater demand than for previous product.
Both points are merely conjecture at this point, so who really knows?
8 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:Apparently they didn't want the items that badly then. The increased cost on troopers was obviously too much for a lot of people seeing as how they are both currently sold out...
by sold out you mean not even available?
Only Phase 2's even came in locally, and they are not sold out.
3 minutes ago, Icelom said:by sold out you mean not even available?
Only Phase 2's even came in locally, and they are not sold out.
No, I mean sold out:
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-legion/products/b2-super-battle-droids-unit-expansion/
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-legion/products/phase-ii-clone-troopers-unit-expansion/
Just now, Mokoshkana said:
all i am saying is, not having enough product or it shipped out in time is technically sold out...
I guess if they cant get enough product produced and shipped they might as well crank the prices because they don't have enough for demand anyways so lost sales wont exist.
I'm fine with it, for now.
In my case, I only pick one of each CW expansion. Not for the minis, but for the rest. I use the rules, cards and tokens for a Lego version of Legion. And leave the minis to my old man.
Since most of the price increase is due to minis, that's a bit annoying for me, but that's my problem. I like to have each "original" set, before scanning and printing the cards. With all these expansions I'll be good regarding tokens.
3 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:The point was more to get some amount of baseline for the market of nonhistorical wargames miniatures. I was not trying to imply anything about quality of value, just that the entire market generally has similar or "worse" pricing. Short of only supporting miniature manufacturers with better pricing, or finding another hobby entirely, we're going to be asked to pay whatever the market will bear and allow for the store, distributor, manufacturer, and license holder to all make as much profit as they can after paying their workers and other expenses.
The fact that you have to specify no historical kinda defeats the purpose of some of your argument. “They’re kinda cheap if you don’t count this huge part of the industry”.
@Mokoshkana
"Having assembled 4x B-1 squads and 2x B-2 squads, I can say the ease of assembly for the B-2's is vastly improved over the B-1's. If folks want to deal with substandard soft plastic for a cheaper price, have at it, but that's not my prerogative. Give me better quality and I will pay for it."
I think you're (unintentionally) setting up a false choice here. The way it's stated, you make it sound like the B1s were "substandard soft plastic" when, they weren't. They were hard plastic, just like the B2s and the Droidekas.
The B2s are easier to assemble because they aren't tiny little pieces and the arms are entirely independent of each other. The B1s had to have both arms attach to ball joints (as if there were a lot of posing opportunity) and then also meet together...so you had to half-glue them, then quickly glue the left hand into the gun and hold until they stuck.
More often than not this was obnoxious because they'd get moved, and you'd have to reset, or they'd slip and you'd end up with glue on your hands. Trying to glue one arm, and then the other, could result in a poor fit where they had to meet (or no fit at all!).
Having gotten basically everything, I don't really agree that the soft plastic was lacking in detail. They were 'extremely' detailed, and although I can see the argument for something flimsy like B1s or some of the Droideka parts being better suited to hard plastic, the B2s are basically Thicc. At this point, it's just a question of convenience for manufacturing. It's easier to have 'everything' in one material type, and not have to pay for two different qualities.
The quality? That was already visible in the latest softer plastic models.
Just look at Chewie, Pao and Bistan, Deathtroopers, Shoretroopers, the Tauntaun Rider (all the fur) and Dewback Rider (so many folds!). There's really no more detail that those figures could have, especially when it comes to the armored troopers. That's just the nature of most of those costumes, they're sleek, anything else would become movie inaccurate.
1 hour ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:The fact that you have to specify no historical kinda defeats the purpose of some of your argument. “They’re kinda cheap if you don’t count this huge part of the industry”.
The purpose is comparing like to like.
Historical miniatures don't have copyright protection or license holders to pay. I know of at least 10 different companies that produce Sherman tanks. That sort of direct competition drives the prices down, since if I don't like the price of the "28mm Sherman tank" from company X, I'll buy the "28mm Sherman tank" from company Y. Both are WYSIWYG, and allowable in any historical wargame tournament I've ever see .
On the other hand, you HAVE to buy Star Wars miniatures from FFG for Legion. There is no direct competition, so there isn't as much market pressure keeping their prices down. Same goes for the other companies I listed. They are making models for copyrighten properties (their own or others) so the direct competition isn't really there, you are obligated to use their miniatures in their tournaments/events.
The initial post that spawned the comparisons anyway was claiming a similar price to 40k, which is what I was striving to prove incorrect.
Edited by Caimheul1313It's pretty fair for people to be a bit shocked when they see price increases of this magnitude, whether the increase in quality matches the increase in price or not, which in this case I believe it does.
I know my small group was a bit shell shocked by this, they were coming over for Warhammer and absolutely loving the cheaper price point of this game. So it was kind of like a... what the **** man? moment.
There is no doubt a higher price point will influence new and potential players, as well as sticker shock some existing.
However, I do believe FFG knows what they are doing and realizes the increase in quality of product will pay dividends as this game grows in popularity and begins to compete with games like Warhammer at major gaming events.
I bought two B2 units from my FLGS. They look awesome! And are way easier to assemble than the B1's.
Im okay with modest price increases if the quality also goes up.
I’d much prefer the softer plastic versions if they’re going to be cheaper. I thought they looked fine and were easy to assemble. The ones that come on sprues are too hard to assemble and aggravate me to the point I don’t even want them. I will only buy one of each expansion rather than two from now on.
13 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:I bought two B2 units from my FLGS. They look awesome! And are way easier to assemble than the B1's.
Im okay with modest price increases if the quality also goes up.
%50 is modest?
10 minutes ago, Icelom said:%50 is modest?
In absolute, not relative terms. Ie $10 is generally within the budget for disposable income of this magnitude. I agree that I wish they had stuck with the softer plastic, which is easier to assemble, and also of course retained their customer service at the pre-existing level, but it is what it is.
My wallet can't handle price increases of this magnitude.
It did make me sad that there was more posability in the phase 1s than with the phase 2s that were on a sprue. Virtually no posability there and almost all phase 2 squads will look identical without a lot of work. On the flip side all of my 5 phase 1 squads look different from each other and it wasn't a lot of work.
Edited by Tirion10 minutes ago, Tirion said:It did make me sad that there was more posability in the phase 1s than with the phase 2s that were on a sprue. Videos no posability there and almost all phase 2 squads will look identical without a lot of work. On the flip side all of my 5 phase 1 squads look different from each other and it wasn't a lot of work.
This is true. I don't know (I hope) that they will get better, but right now the soft plastic is way better quality and easier to convert. I haven't seen enough pose-ability or variations to justify a $10 price hike. I liked that the game was less expensive than other competitors.
#Goldswords
I remember (this was a few years ago) a friend of mine toured the Reaper facility where they sold their miniatures and they had just switched over to the soft plastic line called Bones. It cost the company about $ .25 to produce a normal sized figure and most of that was the plastic and cardboard packaging. I always assumed Legion was somewhat similar (although I'm sure prices have gone up) and FFG always had more packaging and printed tons of cards for their games.
I'm just wondering what details or numbers made them switch to a sprue. I'm sure it was margin of production.
I'm just saying I have yet to have a piece missing out of any of my Legion boxes, but the first box of P2 Clone troopers had a couple of parts loose in the box rolling around because they fell off the sprue.
Edited by buckero037 minutes ago, Tirion said:It did make me sad that there was more posability in the phase 1s than with the phase 2s that were on a sprue. Videos no posability there and almost all phase 2 squads will look identical without a lot of work. On the flip side all of my 5 phase 1 squads look different from each other and it wasn't a lot of work.
I can't say I'm surprised. "Hard plastic" does not innately mean there are more customization options. I know that hard plastic kits are frequently easier to customize, but I've noticed an increase in push-fit models, arms/legs molded to torsos, and generally specific parts designed to fit in specific ways, with modification only possible with a saw/knife, glue, and putty.
Personally, I find hard plastic easier to glue small pieces together with plastic glue, than using super on a different material, which makes weapon/hand swaps a bit easier for me. I do still agree that the Phase 1s were easier than the Phase 2s appear to be.
At least head and weapons swaps are more of a thing now for non-hero units. I just wish that the weapon swaps included two bodies that could hold the Z-6 without modification (I haven't had time yet to star assembly, so no idea as to how much sawing and carving is needed).
30 minutes ago, buckero0 said:I'm just wondering what details or numbers made them switch to a sprue. I'm sure it was margin of production.
I'm just saying I have yet to have a piece missing out of any of my Legion boxes, but the first box of P2 Clone troopers had a couple of parts loose in the box rolling around because they fell off the sprue.
If I recall correctly, the molds for metal/resin/soft plastic miniatures tend to be cheaper to create initially, but need replacement fairly frequently. On the other hand, hard plastic molds are significantly more expensive up front, but last significantly longer.
I have had multiple kits with parts missing. I'd prefer parts fallen of sprue (unbroken) in the box, than not in the box at all. Especially with the new parts policy.
2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:If I recall correctly, the molds for metal/resin/soft plastic miniatures tend to be cheaper to create initially, but need replacement fairly frequently. On the other hand, hard plastic molds are significantly more expensive up front, but last significantly longer.
Yeah but these costs have been sorta misrepresented over the years, mostly by GW and its apologists.
If metal and its molds, and hard styrene molds, cost as much as they are made out to, it wouldn't explain the prices of, say, Eureka minis. Or Copplestone Castings. Or Perry Bros. Miniatures. Or the cost of Revel, MPC, etc. model kits, of both licensed IP's and unlicensed subjects.
Edited by TauntaunScout54 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:Yeah but these costs have been sorta misrepresented over the years, mostly by GW and its apologists.
If metal and its molds cost as much as they are made out to, it wouldn't explain the prices of, say, Eureka minis.
Aren't Eureka minis metal? As I said, molds for metal minis are cheaper (I've generally seen them as rubber molds from places like Perry Brothers[If you haven't seen it, I recommend the "How It's Made" episode talking about miniature figures, which used footage from the Perry Brother factory]), but require replacement fairly regularly. I've seen one kickstarter share that the quote for their molds was $64,000 for their resin miniatures (they never specified exactly how many miniatures, but it seemed like they were going for about 20 or so?).
I have heard from various sources that the cost for production mold for hard plastic (which is made from aluminium) is somewhere between $10,000 and $100,000 for a single mold (depending on size etc). But this is rumour and conjecture, so I don't know the actual numbers of course.
2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:I can't say I'm surprised. "Hard plastic" does not innately mean there are more customization options. I know that hard plastic kits are frequently easier to customize, but I've noticed an increase in push-fit models, arms/legs molded to torsos, and generally specific parts designed to fit in specific ways, with modification only possible with a saw/knife, glue, and putty.
Well, I for one had remained skeptical about the options for Phase II Clone Troopers until I saw the Phase I Clone Troopers. Now a positive surprise has been followed by a negative surprise. I had planned on only getting two boxes of Phase II Clone Troopers for budgetary reasons, anyway, but now I really can't see me ever getting even one more box. As for that increase in mono-pose models (at GW): As much as I like my hard plastic Sisters of Battle and am looking forward to the Lumineth pointy aelves, this kills any desire of mine to maybe later expand them into armies instead of sticking with only small skirmish forces for Kill Team and Warcry, respectively. I am immensely happy that the Tau got their plastic kits when GW's process was advanced enough for varying poses and tightly packed frames, but not yet so self-indulgent as to lose themselves in finely sculpted unique poses that allow for no real deviation. It may not be that bad when regular soldiers/gangers repeat themselves (it's worse with SWL Rebels due to the fixed alien heads), but it really annoys me that with most GW kits from the last couple of years only one specific model can be turned into a sergeant or the equivalent, as when the eye-catching leaders of each squad all strike the same pose, they really stick out like a couple of sore thumbs. And to make matters worse, that model usually can't be built as a regular squad member, meaning that you can't field a ten-man squad with two five-man boxes. Anyway, as far as I can tell from a handful of recent and imminent releases - in resin or hard plastic - from several smaller (mostly tiny) manufacturers, this return to mono-pose troops hasn't caught on. (The exception being games where you never use that many models to begin with, many of which still using metal minis.) Hopefully it never will.
4 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:Aren't Eureka minis metal? As I said, molds for metal minis are cheaper
Yeah but the rate at which replacement occurs, and the cost of the metal poured into the mold, is misrepresented by those trying to justify GW.
GW had a bad habit of making the plastic replacement for a metal model cost only slightly less, and later, cost even more, than the metal sculpt it replaced. In an apparent attempt to make these prices look normal, they raised prices on the then yet-to-be-replaced metal units, to absurd levels.
People would also say "They have to charge so much to recoup the cost of metal molds for hard plastic!". This didn't explain why prior GW hard plastic sculpts weren't priced to the moon. Nor why the assorted Renedra molds (many companies use Renedra, and GW used to), or the various hard plastic model kits available at any store (many of which are licensed IP's) don't seem to suffer this problem of needing to price things at literally laughable prices* to recoup the cost of molds.
Now, arguments about detail and value and charging a premium for quality were made (and I subscribed to them) decades ago in regard to GW vs. other companies. However, since that time, the competitors models got as good or better than GW's were back then, and GW's prices have risen too fast against inflation, for this argument to still hold water with me. The dollars to fun ratio no longer comes out in favor of GW, like it did back then.
*In the last like year, I kinda stopped looking at the GW products very often, when for the umpteenth time I laughed out loud for reals, at the price tags.
@twincast GW's plastic has oddly gone from multipose to monopse to multipose to monopose etc. over the course of their history. It's been weird to watch. No reason Legion et al. might not do the same thing.
If it's any consolation, you can always play second edition, where a 1,000 point army's worth of figures would be a "small skirmish" force today. Power armored troops like Space Marines and Sisters of Battle only used like 40-50 models for a 2,000 point army back then.
4 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:Yeah but the rate at which replacement occurs, and the cost of the metal poured into the mold, is misrepresented by those trying to justify GW.
GW had a bad habit of making the plastic replacement for a metal model cost only slightly less, and later, cost even more, than the metal sculpt it replaced. In an apparent attempt to make these prices look normal, they raised prices on the then yet-to-be-replaced metal units, to absurd levels.
People would also say "They have to charge so much to recoup the cost of metal molds for hard plastic!". This didn't explain why prior GW hard plastic sculpts weren't priced to the moon. Nor why the assorted Renedra molds (many companies use Renedra, and GW used to), or the various hard plastic model kits available at any store (many of which are licensed IP's) don't seem to suffer this problem of needing to price things at literally laughable prices* to recoup the cost of molds.
Now, arguments about detail and value and charging a premium for quality were made (and I subscribed to them) decades ago in regard to GW vs. other companies. However, since that time, the competitors models got as good or better than GW's were back then, and GW's prices have risen too fast against inflation, for this argument to still hold water with me. The dollars to fun ratio no longer comes out in favor of GW, like it did back then.
*In the last like year, I kinda stopped looking at the GW products very often, when for the umpteenth time I laughed out loud for reals, at the price tags.
GW raises the prices when the winds change direction to be honest. And it's easier to convince customers to pay a price a "new" set at a significantly higher price than it is to convince them an existing kit is suddenly worth $15 more, especially when it is listed as having fewer options on the sprue.
I remember when they changed the packaging on Imperial guard from 20 models to 10, and "reduced" the price from $30 to $20... (or something like that). These are fair points, but I'm not talking about GW for this particular price change. We haven't seen a similar thing from FFG/Asmodee (yet). No released hard plastic Stormtroopers at $45 while the Phase 2s are still $35 with the same material.
Since Asmodee's current modus operandi seems to be to cut costs while increasing profits (at least in the short term), a price change at the same time as a change in material makes sense from a business perspective (perceived change in value, so who knows. It could be due to some increased costs, it could be simply they figure they can convince the customers to pay a new price. The only people who know for sure aren't talking.