I think there's little debate that Zizi is pretty great. I also think there's not much debate that Kaz is good, but my question is when is he a better fit than Zizi for a list?

Let's assume they're both the canonical 45 point versions, and you can only have one in a list:

Kazuda Xiono (40)
Heroic (1)
R5 Astromech (4)

Ship total: 45 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 3

Zizi Tlo (40)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 45 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 2

Total: 45

I know when I'd choose Kaz over Zizi, but when/why would you choose him?

Go for Kaz when

• the list wants that Kaz gets shot insteadmof others
• the list needs a strong "supporting threat"
• ... and has not enough points to add more than 44-46

He has no shields, and his dial is worse. He has no boost. He has no rear arc. That makes his time on target worse, and as a result roughly equals the net damage output between the two.

Go with Zizi when

• the list has 4 Awings already. Why isn't Zizi one of them anyway?!
• you want an Awing. Why don't you?!
• the list has Kaz already
• more seriously, when you have a lot of other shots, and want high volume of shots

I don't know when you would take Zizi over Kaz.

A lot of shots means that you have probably both? Zizi Greer Kaz Rose Finn? Something like that where you can't or don't want to take Cova, Jess and Bastian for some specific reason?

Kaz is a 3/3/6, Zizi is a almost3/3/4. Even if optics were as good as 3 native dice...

It all boils down to rear arc vs 3dice. A rear arc is great, amazing even, but a vast majority of other ships do well without one. You have to wonder why.

It is really unclear.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

It is really unclear.

It really is.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

his dial is worse. He has no boost. He has no rear arc. That makes his time on target worse, and as a result roughly equals the net damage output between the two.

I don't know, for quality shots, if this is true, which I suppose is the crux of the matter. The availability of all of the 1-speed maneuvers on a forward-facing arc is kind of amazing for time on target.

I would take Zizi over Kaz if:

1) I have a list where all the elements move fast and are agile (5A, 4A+)

2) She is the cheapest ship on the board and I use her as a bullet sponge.

3) I already took Kaz and I have a list that has 45 points to spare.

Its funny how much I prefer Kaz since in a 1vs1 Zizi eats Kaz alive 99/100 times.

28 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

Its funny how much I prefer Kaz since in a 1vs1 Zizi eats Kaz alive 99/100 times.

It's maybe the spike damage potential? For example, given an infinite amount of time, I think Zizi could potentially solo (most of) a droid swarm, but we don't have infinite time, so droids have to die fast.

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

It's maybe the spike damage potential? For example, given an infinite amount of time, I think Zizi could potentially solo (most of) a droid swarm, but we don't have infinite time, so droids have to die fast.

That's a good way of putting it. If the game was to the death and not timed Zizi would be an auto include in any list.

I think it depends on the meta and/or your lists weaknesses. I dont want Kaz over Zizi vs Boba Fetts cause he would just die easy where Zizi can token up and run away and still fire. But vs something like 5X I would want Kaz for the slamming action into range 1 shots, or vs droids slamming passed them even if he only gets two red dice. Kaz also fits in if you need a flanking threat ala Ric Olie that can toss 3 red dice so your opponent cant just ignore them.

In extended, I think I take Zizi almost everytime. I dont want Kaz in there against something like Oli's list. I had supernatty 7th Sis (i4) vs Oli's list at LVO and vs good players it was hard for her to even get decent shots. Kaz would basically just become an expensive blocker in that kind of a matchup.

Had fun last night with Zizi, Kaz, and two Black Squadron Aces all heroic, Zizi with Optics, Kaz with R5, and the BSAs with R4s and hull upgrade.

Does this make sense: Zizi is great if Zizi is the biggest threat in the list. If there's a significantly bigger threat, go Kaz ?

When Zizi is the scariest ship (5A or such), it's great because your opponent kind of has to attack her, but she's also kind of the worst target, since she's got the extra focus or evade token. But if Zizi is going to get ignored (say, when paired with Rey and Cova Nell), she's going to get left alone, and then... she's just an A-Wing. Optics 2-red is nice, but if you're being ignored, 3-dice is probably just a bit better.

Meanwhile, Kaz has a bit of a trap factor to him. Because you can shut down his bonus dice, it's tempting to put shots into him, and any time shots don't go into Rey when they could have gone into Rey, that's good.

On 2/27/2020 at 11:01 PM, theBitterFig said:

Does this make sense: Zizi is great if Zizi is the biggest threat in the list. If there's a significantly bigger threat, go Kaz ?

Yes, but that's not the only case.

In the latest Mynock episode, Brandon explains his list with BB8Poe, Zizi and Cova . I agree with him when he says Zizi is the better choice there. Kaz would be an obvious first target. Zizi turns Cova into that first target - who can wait behind a cloud, and where Poe+Zizi can punish at least one flank.

Poe is not a big enough threat on his own. Rey on the other hand is so punishing that Kaz does well next to her.

e: also @gennataos , feel the temptation of BB8 Poe...

See here , the latest tournament

54 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, but that's not the only case.

In the latest Mynock episode, Brandon explains his list with BB8Poe, Zizi and Cova . I agree with him when he says Zizi is the better choice there. Kaz would be an obvious first target. Zizi turns Cova into that first target - who can wait behind a cloud, and where Poe+Zizi can punish at least one flank.

Poe is not a big enough threat on his own. Rey on the other hand is so punishing that Kaz does well next to her.

e: also @gennataos , feel the temptation of BB8 Poe...

See here , the latest tournament

This I feel is the perfect list for Zizi and one of the rare ones where she looks like she is 10 points undercosted.

Just reread the restrictions. I was going to say why not use both!

I'd use Kaz when I want something to draw fire away from a main threat. Limiting him to just the R5 and Heroic, though, means that he's not going to do that very effectively. I think Zizi has greater potential to be a long-term threat, because of that I5 + the free mod after attacking or defending + that turret!

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, but that's not the only case.

In the latest Mynock episode, Brandon explains his list with BB8Poe, Zizi and Cova . I agree with him when he says Zizi is the better choice there. Kaz would be an obvious first target. Zizi turns Cova into that first target - who can wait behind a cloud, and where Poe+Zizi can punish at least one flank.

Poe is not a big enough threat on his own. Rey on the other hand is so punishing that Kaz does well next to her.

e: also @gennataos , feel the temptation of BB8 Poe...

See here , the latest tournament

I, uh....kudos to Brandon for joining the "Won a tiny event with BB-8 Poe" club! I'm not sure what happens there if/when Cova is correctly prioritized.

1 hour ago, feltipern1 said:

Just reread the restrictions. I was going to say why not use both!

I'd use Kaz when I want something to draw fire away from a main threat. Limiting him to just the R5 and Heroic, though, means that he's not going to do that very effectively. I think Zizi has greater potential to be a long-term threat, because of that I5 + the free mod after attacking or defending + that turret!

I think it's entirely dependent upon the list in which they're included. From my experience in the list I play, Kaz has a similar effect as Zizi in that people ignore him because he's more difficult to target and kill than other ships, so he's more freedom to flank and pursue...but with more damage potential.

How did the tournament rule regarding Leia and BB-8 interaction?

2 minutes ago, Rettere said:

How did the tournament rule regarding Leia and BB-8 interaction?

I want to say "the correct way", because BB8 explicitly says "before you execute" and Leia reduced the difficulty of the executed maneuver. I was not aware that this is even in question. If it is, then maybe better not here.

Here’s the link to a rules discussion, I don’t think it works. (I wish it did).

edit: the basic argument is that the RRG says Leia and other things like R4 only apply to effects that trigger “during or after” the maneuver, and BB-8 is before and not during or after, therefore it doesn’t work.

I've basically come up with 3 ideas on this debate:

The cop out aka Why Not Both?

Zizi Tlo (40)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Black Squadron Ace (47)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Hull Upgrade (5)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Black Squadron Ace (47)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Hull Upgrade (5)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Kazuda Xiono (40)
Heroic (1)
R5 Astromech (4)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Zizi's Offering:

Black Squadron Ace (47)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Black Squadron Ace (47)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Black Squadron Ace (47)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Zizi Tlo (40)
Heroic (1)
Ion Missiles (4)
Advanced Optics (4)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

And the Kaz idea:

Black Squadron Ace (47)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Black Squadron Ace (47)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Black Squadron Ace (47)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Kazuda Xiono (40)
Heroic (1)
R5 Astromech (4)
Contraband Cybernetics (2)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

19 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I want to say "the correct way", because BB8 explicitly says "before you execute" and Leia reduced the difficulty of the executed maneuver. I was not aware that this is even in question. If it is, then maybe better not here.

I mean, my first impression was that it ought to work, but I just don't feel like investing a lot of effort into fighting for that side.

The list I was giving it a shot with was 3x Blue T-70s with Optics and BB, plus a standardish Cova. It actually feels rather sweet, but is, alas, extended.

41 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, my first impression was that it ought to work, but I just don't feel like investing a lot of effort into fighting for that side.

The list I was giving it a shot with was 3x Blue T-70s with Optics and BB, plus a standardish Cova. It actually feels rather sweet, but is, alas, extended.

BBs not being in Hyperspace is a travesty.

Hyperspace is THE travesty.

Black Balls of Fire w/ Zizi

(40) Kazuda Xiono [Fireball]
(6) R1-J5
(2) Coaxium Hyperfuel
(5) Hull Upgrade
(3) Advanced SLAM
(1) Heroic
(2) Kaz's Fireball
Points: 59

(47) Black Squadron Ace [T-70 X-wing]
(0) Integrated S-foils
(1) Heroic
Points: 48

(47) Black Squadron Ace [T-70 X-wing]
(0) Integrated S-foils
(1) Heroic
Points: 48

(40) Zizi Tlo [RZ-2 A-wing]
(1) Heroic
(4) Advanced Optics
Points: 45

Total points: 200

Limited experience with this list (<4 games) but have not given up more than half points on Kaz. Bucket has been the star of this build; allowing six hits without giving up points.

On 3/7/2020 at 4:35 AM, TychoCelchu505 said:

Black Balls of Fire w/ Zizi

(40) Kazuda Xiono [Fireball]
(6) R1-J5
(2) Coaxium Hyperfuel
(5) Hull Upgrade
(3) Advanced SLAM
(1) Heroic
(2) Kaz's Fireball
Points: 59

(47) Black Squadron Ace [T-70 X-wing]
(0) Integrated S-foils
(1) Heroic
Points: 48

(47) Black Squadron Ace [T-70 X-wing]
(0) Integrated S-foils
(1) Heroic
Points: 48

(40) Zizi Tlo [RZ-2 A-wing]
(1) Heroic
(4) Advanced Optics
Points: 45

Total points: 200

Limited experience with this list (<4 games) but have not given up more than half points on Kaz. Bucket has been the star of this build; allowing six hits without giving up points.

I feel like Bucket is overlooked a lot! What damage card do you pull with the title?

9 hours ago, xxFishStixx said:

I feel like Bucket is overlooked a lot! What damage card do you pull with the title?

That’s an excellent question. I’m a relatively new player who has very quickly grown to love Kaz and the Fireball, but I was a bit stumped on what I should be taking for Explosion With Wings...

On 3/24/2020 at 11:58 PM, xxFishStixx said:

I feel like Bucket is overlooked a lot! What damage card do you pull with the title?

Depends, I usually set up so Kaz bump-SLAMs on turn 1 to flip the damage card and then repair/Bucket it the following turn. Weapons Failure, because it causes no permanent damage, and almost certainly not engaging turn 1. This gives me a 7 health Kaz. This makes Kaz/Bucket 6 threshold, for 30 points. That's like a cheap Upsilon shuttle! I find that I don't use the ship ability that often, I use him as an arc-dodgy opportunistic point sink. The 70s and Zizi do most of the work.

As for Zizi, when can you spend her charge to get your token? After the attack is declared? Or is it after everything resolves and damage is taken?