Just completed our first RTL campaign with a crushing victory for the Beast Lord. A splendid time was had by all!
We have a few questions from the “final battle”.

1) The heroes’ maximum wounds are increased by the sum of half their conquest points gained in the final dungeon. A strict reading of the RTL rulebook on page 20 tells me it is only the maximum wound number that is increased, and the heroes are not “healed” up to this new number. However, the hero player argued he would never actually benefit from that number if the heroes had to start the final battle with their current number of wounds. I allowed this, as I knew they were doomed anyway because of #2.

Question 1: Do the heroes “heal to the new max total” before the final battle against the Overlord’s Avatar?

2) The heroes entered the Beast Lord’s “final” lair with only one of them actually holding a weapon thanks to “Crushing Blow”. One of them couldn’t even punch through the shadow clones’ armor.

Question 2: Should there be a limit placed on the use of “Crushing Blow” just as cards like “Spiritwalker” have been limited for use in RTL?

3) The Overlord removes his Overlord cards when the final battle begins. The hero player decided he should put away his “Feat” cards as well.

Question 3: Should the heroes put away their “Feat” cards for the final battle?

TK

I'm going to be a total punk here...

In reference to Q2: No, never in a million years. CB is the best weapon an OL has to win the game with. Nerf it in Gold and the Final Battle and you've taken away his best weapon. The game is competitive for a reason, the OL is not a DM.

Big Remy said:

I understand your feelings, and agree with you. We would not have changed "Spiritwalker" if the change wasn't "official". But....I'm also interested in hearing what the designer says. Usually, we go with the designer, even if it goes against our personal preferences. It's easy to customize this game to taste, and I just want to know what KW says about this.

Thanks for contributing!

TK

We don't use Crushing blow that much, but never remove it totally it should always be an option.

As players we always carry a spare weapon though because you never know when you'll lose your main weapon to crushing blow or frost.

1) The heroes heal a number of wounds equal to the number fo wounds they gained when entering the final battle (this is in the FAQ).

2) Yes, there should. Unfortunately, there isn't.

3) The ToI rulebook doesn't mention anything regarding discarding Feat cards for the final battle, so I guess not. But then again, the ToI rulebook doesn't really mention anything in regard to Feats in a RtL setting.

Bleached Lizard said:

D'oh! Thanks!

TK

Tell your heroes to move faster.

For crushing blow, the heroes should stockpile equipment for the final battle. If every hero has 2 gold weapons and a silver or shop weapon, they should be able to do something at the final battle. Alternatively, look into the mana and kata skill. Each weasel can hold one item, and can't be targeted by the OL, so they make a good item bank. By the time you get that far, you should have a strategy for dealing with crushing blows. Unless your overlord didn't start using them until the last dungeon, in which case he is exceptionally evil.

The heroes keep their rumor rewards going into the final battle, some rumors aren't even used except for it. So I'd argue for allowing feats, although discarding them as a houserule would be reasonable if it would make for a better final battle..

Badend said:

Well, that was my plan. I guess I'm just exceptionally evil?

Grmbl, quote malfunction again...

Before being interrupted by this stupid forum software, I was saying that CB should be houseruled if you find it too powerful (it allows the OL to crush 2 items/dungeons, combined with dark relics, you can make the heroes' income barely positive, as the heroes will get a little more than 2 items on average in 3 dungeon levels).

Restraining yourself from using it doesn't make any sense at all. It is a competitive game, if CB is too powerful to keep the game competitive, just change the rule governing its use, and bargain something to take away from the heroes in return.

I don't think a houserule is necessary on CB. The heroes have their ways to 'fight' it. There is this one skill, unforunatly i don't know its name by now, which allows the heroes to look through the cards the OL has in hands and tell him to discard one every time a new area is revealed..

So even if he has enough treachery for both CB's (which costs alot and prevents him from gettin stronger on other issues) he can only use one per encounter and in a dungeon, if the heroes are lucky, they coould 'destroy' both or should at least manage to 'destroy' one. So that's one lost item per dungeon for the heroes where they should get approximate 2 from chests in the same time. (~3 chests per dungeon, 4 rolled dice per chest, 1/6 chance for an item makes 3 * 4 = 12 / 6 = 2 ; as there are dungeon levels with more chests this number increases actually) Not mentioned the money they earn additionally. Btw the OL has to manage to hit the hero of his choice which isn't that easy.

I think that's just a fair way for the OL to fight the powers of the party...

MaHaPaTe said:

Hitting a hero without needing to pass his armor is easy, even with taunt, you only need weak kobolds to block the LoS.There is zero chances the heroes will be able to intercept a CB with wind pact, as the OL will use it ASAP if the heroes have the skill, unless you get horribly unlucky on card draws. You usually get more than 9 threats/turns with monster attacks, discards, and the 1 threat/hero. Getting a CB out is really not that hard, if you don't spawn every turn. Thus, the heroes would discard about 1/10th CB in dungeons, not 1 or 2.

I don't see how a combo that should be used on every possible occasion could be considered fair. And it"s not even like it would be a big waste to the OL: Once the tank has been stripped of his armor, he is an easy kill. The only times it is not vastly overpowered is when the OL is going easy on the heroes and refrains himself. Otherwise, there are no compelling reasons not to use it on every occasion for 1 treachery.

It could make up for heroes being stupidly imbalanced at gold, but it doesn't change the fact that the game will never get to gold if the OL gets the card at copper.

I'm still undecided on CB. However, there are plenty of session reports I have read where this card has essentially ruined the game. Heroes constantly finding their stuff is destroyed all the time. Saying that the heroes have something to counter it is correct however. One skill that may or may not be in the game.

The fact that so many groups have either banned the card or limited its use is clear enough. Yes, it is a competitive game and the OL should be trying to win, but doing so with a card which surely breaks the game is wrong. - The idea of the heroes gaining 2 treasures per dungeon but also losing 2 treasures per dungeon thanks to a card seems completely wrong.

However, there is the counter argument. Sometimes (like in my campaign) the heroes have got completely lucky right from the start. Landrec the wise, with Spiritwalker found Staff of the Grave in the very first chest. IMO totally broken - the entire campaign so far has been a walk in the park for the heroes from day 1. And the advice I am being given is that I have to save my XP, buy Crushing Blow in order to reset the balance. If CB was removed from the game, I would be even more screwed and not able to deal with my heroes lucky equipment draws.

However, I can easily see how if the OL gets CB early and just starts blowing things up every time, this will seem awfully wrong.

WARNING: Nonsensical rambling follows...

I think part of the problem IMO at least is that many people, and I throw myself into this, still have this perception in Descent (vanilla or RtL) the OL is still a DM to a degree. People don't expect the person who is running the game to be out to destory them at every turn. I know the game is billed as co-operative, but the OL is still very much a DM/GM. He's the one with all the monsters, has control of the Quest Book and knows the secrets of the map, etc etc.

Plus having one person with a card like CB wiping the floor with 4 other people can get annoying. One thing I've noticed about CB from reading the forums is that people either use it death on the Heroes or don't use it at all. So maybe part of the problem with it is just how the card is being used and not the card itself. I personally in RtL never use it in Copper (except for Staff of the Grave, which is the first thing to get destroyed in Silver), and plan on using it only when I feel that the Heroes equipment is giving them too much of an edge. Other than that, I'd rather have fun mixing some of the other Treachery cards in.

Just my opinion.

That is a little contradictory If we want CB not to ruin the game, we need to assume that the OL will do something suboptimal (like using other treachery cards), like not using it at every occasion.

There is no problem with the card if the OL tries to keep things fun for everyone, but that's part of the matter: as it is now, CB forces the OL to play Dungeonmaster, and not use it as often as he should.

In my group, we take turn playin the OL (that is, we rotate after each campaign), and the problem is not us playing Descent like a RPG, but abusing each combo (gauntlets of rapid firing, early tamalir blitz, 3*beastmen command stacking, crushing blow at every occasion...). If we don't rebalance things, all our games would end up looking the same.

I'd rather fix the abusable rules than try to restrain myself from using them, as I'm an unredeemable minimaxer.

If the original Doom game is any sort of guide, then Crushing Blow might be more "fair" if it's changed to be played after declaring an attack but before rolling the dice. That's would significantly weaken the ability and make it susceptible to Dodge and Feat cards.

Galdred said:

I'd rather fix the abusable rules than try to restrain myself from using them, as I'm an unredeemable minimaxer.

Me too. And that was my point on another thread. My heroes have got themselves a game-breaking combo from day 1 of the campaign. Staff of the Grave is way too good an item and I think it should be removed / changed / nerfed.

However, people told me to stop moaning about it and buy Crushing Blow. I didnt like the fact that something happened in a game and now I am forced to follow a certain path in order to fix it. And then of course, once I have crushing blow, from what I've read about it is that it ruins the games for the players so you have to limit its use.

A lot of people are saying things like "I use it sparingly and only when the players get items that are too good". But this isnt how the game is supposed to be played. The OL is not supposed to go easy on the players. The OL should not be a DM - They should be trying to win. As a GM of D&D for 25 years, this is a hard concept for me to appreciate, but I slowly have. The heroes are trying everything they can to win, and so should the OL. If the game presents them a stupidly broken card which completely ruins the game for the players but helps the OL win, the card should be changed somehow.

Possibilities are to increase its treachery cost to 2. Make it cost more threat to play. Make the equipment damaged and unusable until repaired. Make CB only playable once every 2-3 game weeks. etc. etc.

The problem I have is that I need to buy CB in order to try and rebalance my campaign. The problem is that once I have it, it could completely ruin the game for the players.

I'd much prefer nerfing some of the more powerful items and reducing the power of CB so that everything is a bit more balanced.

CB came up in our campaign last session. I played it in late copper at an Lt. encounter and destroyed the bow of the only ranged char. Mind you, they still had two magic chars.

But one of my players got really upset, saying that he had asumed we agreed not to use CB. I cant remember any such agreement as i dont see why. It got a little heated and we finally desided to talk about it the next session. But here are some of my thoughts so far.

If i am supposed to let CB fly then surely they have to loose telekinesis!

The player pointed out that they will not use the endless-fire-combo if i dont use CB. Thats just nonsense. If they use the combo i just CB it.

He felt confused in a way because in his eyes i had not played my best havent used CB before. (We try to play competitive.) But matter of fakt i just wanted to try out other cards and the probability of getting one CB out of the OL-deck is small if your players just go max. through one and halve levels in under 10 rounds.

So you see, i dont think CB needs tweaking. As OL i refrain myself in certain circumstances from using it, as it seems not effective. In dungeons for now i found better cards to use. But you can be sure to find one in every hand i play my Lt.-encounters with.

Natarko said:

IMO the main problem with CB is one of player mindset, not balance. CB sends a character backwards on the progression trail. It is one of the few things that does so, and it does it extremely reliably and so easily it is like a slap in the face. The hero players are playing in the mindset of gradually improving their characters through the campaign. Hero death is minor, you just come back the same and the penalty feels minor because it is a 'later' bonus for the OL. But losing your precious equipment, which is difficult to acquire (because its randomly acquired and only at certain times and places do you even have an opportunity for the randomness to happen), is a downgrade for the Hero, and is permanent. This is just about the only thing the OL has that 'downgrades' heroes specifically (a couple of monsters or special effects have opportunities to do that IIRC). And there is simply no avoiding it. At least with Frost the Hero can unequip and use 'lesser' items until the frost melts (and have a chance to get rid of the Frost, and only a chance of it breaking equipment anyway) or choose to take the risk.

If CB-ed equipment was moved to the Shop deck and thereafter freely available, maybe at half price*, then CB would have both a less morale effect and a more specific 'here-and-now'/'for this event (Dungeon/encounter) only' effect.

I'm not really an advocate of nerfing CB because there are better cards to use in dungeons and the OL needs all the help he can get in the later stages outdoors. And there are hero combos that are as bad or worse. But if it crippling a campaign such that there is a resolution to houserule it, I''d suggest the above shop-rule might be worth trying. And as an OL I'd demand nerfing both Rapid Fire (once per 'normal' attack) and Telekinesis (to work like Knockback on larger monsters) to even things up...

*Half price because otherwise the economic effect of CB remains a long-term damaging penalty to the heroes, and because, frankly, the shop items are only copies, right?