10 hours ago, Tirion said:

regular gun is lackluster????

Here is some math for you:

With bistan at range 3 they average 5.125 hits, pao 4.250.

Bistan & Co still manage 3.625 average hits at range 4!

To put that in perspective DT with the DLT average 4.625 hits.

I'm not saying these guys are as good as DTs but to say there offensive output is a joke makes no sense. At every range band they compete for the most damage for their faction.

Dead guys only get to shoot when they're alive. Bistan accounts at least a third of that and he has to recover to get his gun working again. Pau usually survives and then is ignored the rest of the game or killed before scoring.

I think running them as an expensive 4 man unit that never shoots is maybe the only way to play them. Dodge grab objectives and move are the only actions.

The price is the problem. For 100pts they've got to contribute. I shouldn't have to run a 150+ decoy next to them to make them work

11 hours ago, Tirion said:

All I can say man is but a lotto ticket can you live in some crazy land of probability for that to happen every time..... Even once is at an end of the bell curve

I get statistics, I've done the math.

But if it happens the first or second turn of the game, you never get to see the other end of the bell curve. The only reason Han gets to the end of the game is because Chewie is Tanking all his shots. Then, you'll start to see his dice turn around. Pathfinders don't have that luxury usually. Even with Jyn's point change, I haven't noticed a big swing in her survivability. If I just hide her for 3 turns and then pop her out...she'll die turn 4. I'll get to roll 7 dice, but she'll still die. I really don't think I like the Rebel play-style. I like the models. I enjoy the hobby part of it, but the play-style sucks (which is why I'm still holding out for Scum and Mercs)

Most of my Rebels are aliens and are customized to some degree. I want their cool ramshackle hot-rod terrorist vehicles to be good but they're not. I want their suicide bombers to be better but they're not. I enjoy the characters (except for Jyn's execution of rules) I like playing Han and Chewie. I like Leia (Padme looks better) I like both iterations of Luke and Sabine, has great rules, but I can't stand the other units. I have 2 converted Desert/Jungle TaunTauns but have only played them once. I'm sure they're fine because everyone complains about them, but the rest of the units don't do what I wish they would do. My main opponents are Imperials and the GAR and CIS aren't filled out enough yet to be interesting. I may just have to wait until they release something that suits me better.

7 hours ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

A 32 point upgrade is what’s giving you those hits, not the 4 whole white dice from the regular dudes... you’re getting what, one and a half hits per 4 white dice? They’re ok offensively, but for their cost they need something better. Either more survivability or more offensive upside. Having a commander with entourage might help also, but I guess only empire get that.

Compared to most units 0 dice at range 4 it's pretty amazing. Also no one is taking just naked PTs so I think it's a safe assumption

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

Dead guys only get to shoot when they're alive. Bistan accounts at least a third of that and he has to recover to get his gun working again. Pau usually survives and then is ignored the rest of the game or killed before scoring.

I think running them as an expensive 4 man unit that never shoots is maybe the only way to play them. Dodge grab objectives and move are the only actions.

The price is the problem. For 100pts they've got to contribute. I shouldn't have to run a 150+ decoy next to them to make them work

I've found successes but that's obviously anecdotal so *shrugs*. I like them I play them. You don't and that's cool.

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

I get statistics, I've done the math.

But if it happens the first or second turn of the game, you never get to see the other end of the bell curve. The only reason Han gets to the end of the game is because Chewie is Tanking all his shots. Then, you'll start to see his dice turn around. Pathfinders don't have that luxury usually. Even with Jyn's point change, I haven't noticed a big swing in her survivability. If I just hide her for 3 turns and then pop her out...she'll die turn 4. I'll get to roll 7 dice, but she'll still die. I really don't think I like the Rebel play-style. I like the models. I enjoy the hobby part of it, but the play-style sucks (which is why I'm still holding out for Scum and Mercs)

Most of my Rebels are aliens and are customized to some degree. I want their cool ramshackle hot-rod terrorist vehicles to be good but they're not. I want their suicide bombers to be better but they're not. I enjoy the characters (except for Jyn's execution of rules) I like playing Han and Chewie. I like Leia (Padme looks better) I like both iterations of Luke and Sabine, has great rules, but I can't stand the other units. I have 2 converted Desert/Jungle TaunTauns but have only played them once. I'm sure they're fine because everyone complains about them, but the rest of the units don't do what I wish they would do. My main opponents are Imperials and the GAR and CIS aren't filled out enough yet to be interesting. I may just have to wait until they release something that suits me better.

My point was simply their offense isn't a joke it's among the best in their faction and they are more survivable though maybe not by much than their faction counterparts. The math is there.

14 minutes ago, Tirion said:

My point was simply their offense isn't a joke it's among the best in their faction and they are more survivable though maybe not by much than their faction counterparts. The math is there.

If we are talking in absolute terms of their offense is a joke or no joke, I agree with you.

However in practical terms they dont generate enough offense for their cost nor their survivability. When we compare them to units they face across the board such as death troopers or shore troopers who can hit harder, it is pretty obvious their offense is actually a joke. I think you are missing that.

4 hours ago, Uetur said:

If we are talking in absolute terms of their offense is a joke or no joke, I agree with you.

However in practical terms they dont generate enough offense for their cost nor their survivability. When we compare them to units they face across the board such as death troopers or shore troopers who can hit harder, it is pretty obvious their offense is actually a joke. I think you are missing that.

That's fair but then all rebel infantry offensively is a joke as they are among the best.

I would argue that pathfinders are the best late game unit. The more enemy units get whittled down the better danger sense becomes, getting plinked at with reduced dice pools makes them very tanky. Duck and cover helps keep them rolling the extra white dice and Erso keeps them from running for the door.

9 hours ago, Tirion said:

That's fair but then all rebel infantry offensively is a joke as they are among the best.

Pretty much this. They have range 3 offense equivalent of Fleet Troopers, and at range 4 what besides Death Troopers outshoots them? That’s 18 points more expensive than the Pathfinders. Shore Troopers T-21B, but only with Fire Support from a mortar? Great, that’s 120 points, more than Pathfinders + Bistan by 20 points.

So, great, the empire can try to outshoot those Pathfinders...but only by outspending them by more than 20% of the Pathfinder unit cost.

But death troopers don't die. Pathfinders sneeze themselves off the table. You can take 6 minimun trooper units for 240pts. You have to take something else in your list. Pathfinders don't perform like they are 70% more expensive. They perform like troopers essentially.

That's all we're saying

Accept your imminent death at the hands of the AAT main gun with High Velocity. Your dodges can't save you now!

10 hours ago, buckero0 said:

But death troopers don't die. Pathfinders sneeze themselves off the table. You can take 6 minimun trooper units for 240pts. You have to take something else in your list. Pathfinders don't perform like they are 70% more expensive. They perform like troopers essentially.

That's all we're saying

I mean, 6 barebones rebel troopers average 12 damage total, but broken up into 2s, which doesn’t penetrate cover, and you have to manage to get all 6 actions to try and get that (probably not going to happen, it’s safe to assume your opponent will kill/attrit at least some of them before they can act). They also have white surge saves, and nimble is good, but it requires that they activate before the attacker.

The Pathfinders can attack at a range Rebel Troopers just can’t, and they attack for more at the same range. And that’s before you add in Pao or Bistan. The three units are 258 points, which is only 18 points more, and combined they deal 12.375 (.375 more, but also across only 3 attacks, making them more likely to get that damage out, and faster).

And their defense is just better than any other Rebel special forces or corps unit, but I wouldn’t expect them to be invincible. And, with Danger Sense, you have a very good chance of shrugging off plink damage.

There’s something to be said for activation counts, but if they don’t do much, it’s nothing positive.

As for Death Troopers, they’re just a little tougher than regular Stormtroopers, but that also makes them ideal targets for units with Pierce.

As much as I love the principle of taking a variety of weapons, I've given up on ion. I am too absent minded to remember which ones have to recover, and besides, it seems like my ion guns always wind up in a shootout at The OK Corral, and my flamers/gatling guns always wind up going up against vehicles, or camped out on an objective out of range of anything. Le sigh.

Any time I lose an AT-ST as an imperial, it's from cc with Luke Skywalker.

On 2/28/2020 at 11:26 AM, Uetur said:

If we are talking in absolute terms of their offense is a joke or no joke, I agree with you.

However in practical terms they dont generate enough offense for their cost nor their survivability. When we compare them to units they face across the board such as death troopers or shore troopers who can hit harder, it is pretty obvious their offense is actually a joke. I think you are missing that.

Bear in mind that Rebels can’t take either of those units, so it becomes apples and oranges at some point.

edit: @TauntaunScout that case history suggests you should shoot him as soon as he’s in range.

Tinfoil hat time!:

Pathfinders (and rebels in general) would be much better if the surge was adjacent to the block on the white defense die instead of the opposite side. The die has basically 2 4-side axes to roll on. If it ends up rolling on the side with no paint, you're boned. If it was a normal 5+ roll on numeric dice, then no matter which way it rolls you'd have a chance.

So basically get a dice tower to make your rolls really random, or throw them really hard into a tray, because just gently tossing white dice makes it likely it'll just roll on the 4 blank sides. Or use numeric dice in friendly play.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Bear in mind that Rebels can’t take either of those units, so it becomes apples and oranges at some point.

edit: @TauntaunScout that case history suggests you should shoot him as soon as he’s in range.

Yeah cause I also had a decent record stomping him to death if I can get a few wounds on him before cc ensues.

4 hours ago, Derrault said:

I mean, 6 barebones rebel troopers average 12 damage total, but broken up into 2s, which doesn’t penetrate cover, and you have to manage to get all 6 actions to try and get that (probably not going to happen, it’s safe to assume your opponent will kill/attrit at least some of them before they can act). They also have white surge saves, and nimble is good, but it requires that they activate before the attacker.

The Pathfinders can attack at a range Rebel Troopers just can’t, and they attack for more at the same range. And that’s before you add in Pao or Bistan. The three units are 258 points, which is only 18 points more, and combined they deal 12.375 (.375 more, but also across only 3 attacks, making them more likely to get that damage out, and faster).

And their defense is just better than any other Rebel special forces or corps unit, but I wouldn’t expect them to be invincible. And, with Danger Sense, you have a very good chance of shrugging off plink damage.

There’s something to be said for activation counts, but if they don’t do much, it’s nothing positive.

As for Death Troopers, they’re just a little tougher than regular Stormtroopers, but that also makes them ideal targets for units with Pierce.

I want to play on your tables where there’s always perfect heavy cover no matter what the scenario is or what I’m trying to do.

7 minutes ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

I want to play on your tables where there’s always perfect heavy cover no matter what the scenario is or what I’m trying to do.

That's the thing. He's never played.

This is making me wanna buy Pathfinders. Two boxes.

32 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

This is making me wanna buy Pathfinders. Two boxes.

I have 2 and have used them heavily. I could write an entire article on the way to be successful with Pathfinders. I'm telling you there is a learning curve but they are good. Just remember that the talking heads that told us all that 6 z6 was the way to play rebels and that Pathfinders aren't good did a 180 stating that naked rebel troopers are now what's good. Long story long (and I know you don't subscribe to the talking heads like most) most things in this game are good and playable it's just a matter of figuring out how they tick.

Disclaimer - I am the resident fan boy of fleet troopers, Pathfinders and jyn so what do I know.

57 minutes ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

I want to play on your tables where there’s always perfect heavy cover no matter what the scenario is or what I’m trying to do.

In my experience people hug heavy cover.
edit: and this doesn’t address the main point: they do very little expected damage, take minimal effort to remove in kind, and are paper tigers, easily removed activations.

50 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

That's the thing. He's never played.

🤥 🤥 🤥 🤥 🤥

Yet another 5 pinnochio statement from @thepopemobile100

11 minutes ago, Tirion said:

I have 2 and have used them heavily. I could write an entire article on the way to be successful with Pathfinders. I'm telling you there is a learning curve but they are good. Just remember that the talking heads that told us all that 6 z6 was the way to play rebels and that Pathfinders aren't good did a 180 stating that naked rebel troopers are now what's good. Long story long (and I know you don't subscribe to the talking heads like most) most things in this game are good and playable it's just a matter of figuring out how they tick.

Disclaimer - I am the resident fan boy of fleet troopers, Pathfinders and jyn so what do I know.

Why aren’t you taking these skills to the bigger competitions and placing in the top 8?

6 minutes ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

Why aren’t you taking these skills to the bigger competitions and placing in the top 8?

I mostly agree with Tirion. I've enjoyed Pathfinders and have good success with them. Love Fleet Troopers, but not a fan of Jyn.

The problem I see with Pathfinders at the competitive level recently is this: They're ability to not die is heavily dice dependent. In high leveled play, you're playing quite a few games. You'll botch a defense roll at some point, and it's going to hurt your chances of success substantially in an environment that counts total victory points earned throughout all games. They also take away from your SF slots, which want to be used for sniper teams to pad activations. The reason DTs see use with consistency is because of entourage, which is something rebels lack completely.

19 minutes ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

Why aren’t you taking these skills to the bigger competitions and placing in the top 8?

Not all of us have the free time or inclination to travel. If those competitions wanna come to our local area, hey, by all means.

1 hour ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

Why aren’t you taking these skills to the bigger competitions and placing in the top 8?

Cause I have 2 small children and I don't have money to travel to play a minis game.