7 minutes ago, RStan said:Just double checking doing the math over myself...did you take into account that BXs have natural surge to hit? Was trying the math against no cover Rebel Troopers and I get 1.41 with no Aim.
Plus he's got a bunch of commas in there instead of periods like God intended.
8 hours ago, Tirion said:Are you sure about that?
Yes. Han and Commandos were announced on 3/24/18 (the core set was released 3/22/18), and released 8/23/18. Boba and Scouts were announced on 5/11/18 and released 9/27/18.
For comparison, ARCs and BXs were announced 116 days after the CW core set was released.
8 hours ago, Tirion said:I play gar and see no reason for 3 arcs
I’m currently looking at two of them for my army. We just don’t get many releases so we have to capitalize on what we have.
I don’t know how good it’ll be, but in tabletop admiral I got myself the ultimate scouting party... 2x full ARC units each with a unique hero we don’t know what they do yet, a sniper strike team since I’ll have the minis for it, 4x P1 clone units in misc config, Padmé with looted blaster and aggressive tactics + recon Rex. Between infiltrate and scout/scouting party, I can basically have my entire army out of my own deployment zone turn 0.
Good? Maybe not. Hilarious as can be for specific objectives or boards? Probably.
8 hours ago, Tirion said:I play gar and see no reason for 3 arcs
Maybe just for variety. I'm hoping you can field 3 different types of units with 2 boxes that way you don't have to buy too many. I do hope they have more shelf life than Commandos. I've only fielded a full unit of commandos (instead of the small unit) once and that's just because I painted them.
10 hours ago, RStan said:losing is MUCH easier with BXs
Now now, they can't be that bad? ^^
1 hour ago, buckero0 said:Maybe just for variety. I'm hoping you can field 3 different types of units with 2 boxes that way you don't have to buy too many. I do hope they have more shelf life than Commandos. I've only fielded a full unit of commandos (instead of the small unit) once and that's just because I painted them.
you can field 4 actually, not that the force org chart allows that, but you'll have the models and cards for it.
6 hours ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:Yeah, impervious and red saves is terrible on sniper teams... who even cares what fives and echo does, I’m sure they’re not worth it.
I'm just saying I can build what I need with 2 boxes. Never said they weren't good and you only need one box for fives and echo
18 hours ago, Hoffburger said:AI was very obviously thought up and balanced around the vacuum of the core set only. It makes sense and plays well there. When you start slapping it on to everything or introduce it to a world with cheap comm jammers on fast units that can cohere to screw you (tauns)...it becomes very much a garbage NPE mechanic that is pure fluff and hinders gameplay.
If an opponent attempts to disrupt that early by throwing a unit across the field with Comms Jammer, then they have essentially taken the lamb to the slaughter. If they wait until later in the game, then the CIS player has time to shoot it off of the table. The tank is going to DESTROY Tauntauns. It will do an average of 5 wounds per turn to Tauntauns using Barrage without an aim.
18 hours ago, Hoffburger said:What benefit do dekas, B2s, the tank, and commandos get that requires them to have the AI handicap attached to them? Commando snipers would be good without AI, but with it they become a clunky mess. ARC snipers just completely trump them in every way.
CIS requires skill to pilot and the general has to actually account for things which can impact its perfect activation control. No other army can achieve perfect activation turn after turn the way droids can.
I think people are missing out on the fact that the snipers are supposed to be different. These new Strike Teams are not supposed to be carbon copies of the GCW teams. I like that the BX strike team has the capability to be far more defensive than any other sniper unit out there (although admittedly pricey).
15 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:
If an opponent attempts to disrupt that early by throwing a unit across the field with Comms Jammer, then they have essentially taken the lamb to the slaughter. If they wait until later in the game, then the CIS player has time to shoot it off of the table. The tank is going to DESTROY Tauntauns. It will do an average of 5 wounds per turn to Tauntauns using Barrage without an aim.
CIS requires skill to pilot and the general has to actually account for things which can impact its perfect activation control. No other army can achieve perfect activation turn after turn the way droids can.
I think people are missing out on the fact that the snipers are supposed to be different. These new Strike Teams are not supposed to be carbon copies of the GCW teams. I like that the BX strike team has the capability to be far more defensive than any other sniper unit out there (although admittedly pricey).
You really don't play the game in a competitive setting if you think the above is true. You only have perfect activation control with B1s, which I already mentioned and you ignored. None of the other AI units (except the tank with the droid upgrade) allow you to have activation control and therefore don't really have a reason for the AI handicap. This was my entire point which you glossed over.
Also, if a TT gets a comm jammer off on a B1 squad you're gonna be stuck slinging white dice at it in melee. You can't withdraw due to AI. So no, it's not a free kill "lamb to the slaughter" situation. Lastly, the tank has a minimum range which can also be abused, so again, no, it's not going to slaughter TTs.
5 hours ago, Vector Strike said:I've made a chart comparing the snipers in the game. It seems BX are worse than all others unless you give them at least 1 Aim token - and go for Lethal instead of re-rolls (unless the enemy has Deflect or Impervious).
There's a few ways to feed aim tokens to them fortunately. Hunter and Offensive Push being the best bets. I'm actually fine with this being the case since they do better than the rest of the snipers against saber users. The gap when shooting into heavy cover also narrows significantly with how easy it is for the BX to roll double hit.
14 hours ago, RStan said:Am I the only one potentially more excited to see what the Dioxis Mine will do for the Saboteur BXs? Just a strike team with that and some Vibroblades seems very interesting with access to Scout 3. Overally I'm interested in 3-4 types of BX units. Obviously the Sniper Strike Team (BORING, but will play if necessary ). Dioxis Mine Saboteur Team with Vibroblades. Full squad with Shields. Full squad with Vibroblades.
Super exited for this unit and the many ways you can mix and match them as well.
One unit of Commandos with tenacity and vibroswords is 78 points compare that to a wookie squad with tenacity being 79. Now I know wookies work a bit............strange, but it is a good comparison to a unit that main job is to damage something. Throw in better defense and scout 3 for a unit that I can easily see running 3 of and them getting into melee combat most of the time. Both Dooku and Grevious would love to have backup charging in with them and jamming gun lines. Not counting the extra body and added control of the mine (wish we got that leaked). Will it be good? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Will it be fun? I think so.
As for the shields I can see running a full unit with the mine. Between 2 shields, impervious, and poison mines they could really hold down an objective. Throw in two sniper strike teams for support to really hold down a lane.
2 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:There's a few ways to feed aim tokens to them fortunately. Hunter and Offensive Push being the best bets. I'm actually fine with this being the case since they do better than the rest of the snipers against saber users. The gap when shooting into heavy cover also narrows significantly with how easy it is for the BX to roll double hit.
They actually do worse - other snipers have High Velocity, so a Jedi can't even spend the Dodge to activate Deflect in the first place.
16 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:Also, if a TT gets a comm jammer off on a B1 squad you're gonna be stuck slinging white dice at it in melee. You can't withdraw due to AI. So no, it's not a free kill "lamb to the slaughter" situation. Lastly, the tank has a minimum range which can also be abused, so again, no, it's not going to slaughter TTs.
The AAT can very easily block TTs from engaging B1s. And if TTs do get withing the main gun's minimum range, a single reverse brings them back in range; they don't even need to move the full distance. With High-Energy Shells, that's 6R1W Crit 3 with High Velocity. Even with just the stock weapons it's 4R3B Crit 2, though they would lose HV in that case.
7 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:I'm actually fine with this being the case since they do better than the rest of the snipers against saber users.
How so? I would think they do worse given that the other snipers have High Velocity.
12 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:You really don't play the game in a competitive setting if you think the above is true. You only have perfect activation control with B1s, which I already mentioned and you ignored. None of the other AI units (except the tank with the droid upgrade) allow you to have activation control and therefore don't really have a reason for the AI handicap. This was my entire point which you glossed over.
Okay, I guess I need to run this by the numbers for you. Perfect activation means having the ability to choose which unit goes whenever one would like. It does not mean my entire army has a face up order token. If I get all of my units except for Special Forces an order at the beginning of the turn, I still have perfect activation control. I know that only BX droids are in my stack. This is pretty easy to do every turn. Just use HQ uplinks on the turns during which a 1-pip is played.
16 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:Also, if a TT gets a comm jammer off on a B1 squad you're gonna be stuck slinging white dice at it in melee. You can't withdraw due to AI. So no, it's not a free kill "lamb to the slaughter" situation. Lastly, the tank has a minimum range which can also be abused, so again, no, it's not going to slaughter TTs.
A Tauntaun unit can at most move 17" (Speed 3 move + base x2 or 1 inch short of Range 3). The tank has range 4, so it will get at least one round of shooting if not two (again perfect activation control). In the event that B1s are left out in a vulnerable position, it is likely that Dooku or Grievous will be there to support. If the Tauntauns try to play range games, then good luck. The base is 150mm and it can strafe. It is going to be farther than Range 1 after a move. Even with one action, the tank shoots with the high energy shells at 6R 1W and ignores the dodges.
19 hours ago, Hoffburger said:What benefit do dekas, B2s, the tank, and commandos get that requires them to have the AI handicap attached to them?
Dekas are weird with their cost. It takes a long time for a single unit to gun them down while they do okay ranged damage, but more importantly have suppressive and immune deflect. I think they could stand to be cheaper, but they certainly aren't bad.
B2s don't care about their AI for the most part. People forget that with Fleet Troopers the big con to them was a single suppression token made them crap. B2s don't suffer from that at all. They also have some of the highest damage output for a corp unit outside of fire support. Throw on a surge and it becomes the highest raw damage output off a corp unit unless you're pulling some serious aim shenanigans on Shoretroopers. Most of the time, you're going to be moving into range 2 then shooting so an aim isn't likely. An aim after that would be nice, but a surge is just as good.
The Tank, if you plan on using barrage a lot, doesn't care about AI: Attack at all since using barrage takes both actions. Heck an aim doesn't do much for the main gun since critical 2 with 4 red means you aren't rolling that many blanks to begin with.
Commando Droids without AI are Deathtrooper levels of good, if not better. Trading the surge to block and the exhaustible range 4 supressive weapon for a better base attack, impervious, scale, and the option for the shield or vibroswords in a cheaper package that can't lose actions due to suppression. There's a reason I'm excited for these guys and it's not for the strike team.
11 minutes ago, costi said:They actually do worse - other snipers have High Velocity, so a Jedi can't even spend the Dodge to activate Deflect in the first place.
8 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:How so? I would think they do worse given that the other snipers have High Velocity.
I'd rather them waste a dodge token to cancel a single hit that they then can't deflect rather than a 3-5 damage attack that the can deflect damage back on.
9 minutes ago, Lochlan said:The AAT can very easily block TTs from engaging B1s. And if TTs do get withing the main gun's minimum range, a single reverse brings them back in range; they don't even need to move the full distance. With High-Energy Shells, that's 6R1W Crit 3 with High Velocity. Even with just the stock weapons it's 4R3B Crit 2, though they would lose HV in that case.
I totally agree the AAT will punish Jedi, Tauntauns and really anything trying to use dodge. Tauntauns do get one benefit in that there will be two of them for one AAT kitted out and they often have activation advantage which will let them get in close. Where as Jedi or dodge based hero's are in real trouble. Dropping high velocity shells, 4r per attack, or 6r1w with an aim token is brutal firepower.
16 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:Okay, I guess I need to run this by the numbers for you. Perfect activation means having the ability to choose which unit goes whenever one would like. It does not mean my entire army has a face up order token. If I get all of my units except for Special Forces an order at the beginning of the turn, I still have perfect activation control. I know that only BX droids are in my stack. This is pretty easy to do every turn. Just use HQ uplinks on the turns during which a 1-pip is played.
A Tauntaun unit can at most move 17" (Speed 3 move + base x2 or 1 inch short of Range 3). The tank has range 4, so it will get at least one round of shooting if not two (again perfect activation control). In the event that B1s are left out in a vulnerable position, it is likely that Dooku or Grievous will be there to support. If the Tauntauns try to play range games, then good luck. The base is 150mm and it can strafe. It is going to be farther than Range 1 after a move. Even with one action, the tank shoots with the high energy shells at 6R 1W and ignores the dodges.
You are still missing the point. Let me try to explain it again and dumb it down...
B1 has coordinate, AI on B1 make sense.
B2/BX/Deka no has coordinate, AI handicap no make sense.
Comm Jammer means you have to shoot something instead of move unless you're running one of the tank upgrades that removes AI. Running thr AAT means you will be at an activation disadvantage which lets them last first very easily which means an NTFS TT can effectively cover 38.5" of ground. Even if you don't get AI, you still have to be able to move 6" away which isn't always possible due to terrain, especially if you're trying to block with the AAT.
26 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:You are still missing the point. Let me try to explain it again and dumb it down...
B1 has coordinate, AI on B1 make sense.
B2/BX/Deka no has coordinate, AI handicap no make sense.
Comm Jammer means you have to shoot something instead of move unless you're running one of the tank upgrades that removes AI. Running thr AAT means you will be at an activation disadvantage which lets them last first very easily which means an NTFS TT can effectively cover 38.5" of ground. Even if you don't get AI, you still have to be able to move 6" away which isn't always possible due to terrain, especially if you're trying to block with the AAT.
Okay I guess I need to dumb it back down for you. The drawbacks make sense because of point costs. As @thepopemobile100 explained above, these units are pretty amazing for their point costs. Without this drawback reducing the overall point costs, the unit would all be priced much higher.
If the TT isn't getting into melee, then they are open to shooting. You can't have it both ways. Either they are jamming everything after being locked into combat, or they are moving an unreal amount of distance just to get into range to jam the comms. As for moving, the AAT has strafe, which means it can move in ANY of four directions. It has a base size of 150mm (5.9") and it still gets to move the speed 1 on top of that. Oh yeah, it also HOVERS:
Quote"A unit with hover: ground is only treated as a ground vehicle by other units . For all other game effects, the unit is still a repulsor vehicle. Importantly, as a repulsor vehicle, it is still able to move uninhibited over many types of terrain. Refer to "Additional Terrain Rules" on page 8 for how repulsor vehicles interact with certain types of terrain"
9 hours ago, arnoldrew said:Plus he's got a bunch of commas in there instead of periods like God intended.
Nobody confuses a comma with a decimal point though.
10 hours ago, RStan said:Just double checking doing the math over myself...did you take into account that BXs have natural surge to hit? Was trying the math against no cover Rebel Troopers and I get 1.41 with no Aim.
Yup. I'm using this:
2 red dice, surge to hit vs white defense with surge do block, nothing else. The culprit is the lack of Pierce/Critical 1 on their weapon.
5 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:There's a few ways to feed aim tokens to them fortunately. Hunter and Offensive Push being the best bets. I'm actually fine with this being the case since they do better than the rest of the snipers against saber users. The gap when shooting into heavy cover also narrows significantly with how easy it is for the BX to roll double hit.
Yes, but Hunter only works vs multi-wound units (snipers aren't really useful against them unless they're on their death throes) and Offensive Push asks for Recover every other turn... They really need order tokens to shine.
10 hours ago, arnoldrew said:Plus he's got a bunch of commas in there instead of periods like God intended.
41 minutes ago, Derrault said:Nobody confuses a comma with a decimal point though.
Excel in Portuguese; Romance languages use commas for decimals and dots for thousands
1.000 = one thousand
1,000 = one
Edited by Vector Strike
Ok I am confused over how some people think Immune: Deflect is worse than High Velocity keywords?
Surely being able to use a bigger pool while being immune to deflect is better than being limited to just 2R?
Fair enough if they sniper is shooting stuff at range 3 or less than it's not really a sniper but the BX droids feel like they are going to operate differently than the GCW counterparts.
10 minutes ago, Karnage1992 said:Ok I am confused over how some people think Immune: Deflect is worse than High Velocity keywords?
Surely being able to use a bigger pool while being immune to deflect is better than being limited to just 2R?
Fair enough if they sniper is shooting stuff at range 3 or less than it's not really a sniper but the BX droids feel like they are going to operate differently than the GCW counterparts.
I assume most people are assuming firing with just the sniper rifle with range 4+shots. However that is a good point that, if you are firing the E-5 as well (strike team or full unit), Immune: Deflect is definitely better, seeing as it still works at that point.
11 minutes ago, Karnage1992 said:Ok I am confused over how some people think Immune: Deflect is worse than High Velocity keywords?
Surely being able to use a bigger pool while being immune to deflect is better than being limited to just 2R?
Fair enough if they sniper is shooting stuff at range 3 or less than it's not really a sniper but the BX droids feel like they are going to operate differently than the GCW counterparts.
In a vacuum, High Velocity prevents dodge tokens from being spent, which is effectively better than Immune: Deflect. However Immune: Deflect is better if you have other BX droids in the unit shooting since you don't need every weapon in the pool to have Immune: Deflect to gain that effect while High Velocity does.
Outside of just looking at the two keywords, I prefer Immune: Deflect on a sniper as I'd rather the opponent waste the dodge on that shot rather than a different attack pool. If they don't spend the dodge because of a bigger threat, it's effectively the same outcome. I see it as a win/win for me.