35 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

I’d rather baby step it and have to slowly buff multiple times instead of making it too good and then backing off some of them.

I like the speeder X change concept as so far all of them are susceptible to crits against white dice and personally I would prefer rrg changes over points changes or keyword changes if possible.

I agree it might be a bit much of adding all that at one time. I do however like the Speeder X - remove crits idea.
I think one of Legion's big design flaws is just about the subject on natural crits. Its not so much of a benefit to use weapons with certain keywords who makes them specialized against certain units. They are also often exhausts which is not ideal. Now you lean over to units with critical X which works against everything, also making dodges obsolete (except Deflect). Or just use units with very large dice pools which wil generate 1-2 natural crits on average.
In the end even when you got Cover1-2, Armor and a dodge there is maybe 2 crits on the table, before impact, and you will save 0. And thats from upgraded 1 trooper unit.
So the addition to the speeder X rule would deal with this in a good way.
But the Natural Crits discussion would deserve its own topic

8 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Could they even be hurt at that point? Like, the average crits is going to be something <1 on most dice pools already, and with the pilot they’d have to suffer >4 regular hits with impact to even possibly get hurt at that point.

Yes, it would be like before. With the jockey and a dodge you would need at least 4 hits with impact to have a chance of giving damage. And with white defense dice..

Like I mentioned in the previous post Outmaneuver might be a bit excessive for now, but I dont know.

Maybe the design of Critical X is flawed too? Its a boost against all unit types and is an additional reason why dodge action is often a waste.
It also makes Crit x preferable to take instead of an impact 1 or exhaust impact 3 weapon. Because critical results dont care about cover or dodges!
Went a bit off course here but Im cheering on some RRG changes

13 minutes ago, HOBOBOI said:

Yes, it would be like before. With the jockey and a dodge you would need at least 4 hits with impact to have a chance of giving damage. And with white defense dice..

Like I mentioned in the previous post Outmaneuver might be a bit excessive for now, but I dont know.

Maybe the design of Critical X is flawed too? Its a boost against all unit types and is an additional reason why dodge action is often a waste.
It also makes Crit x preferable to take instead of an impact 1 or exhaust impact 3 weapon. Because critical results dont care about cover or dodges!
Went a bit off course here but Im cheering on some RRG changes

You know that the downside of Critical X is that it's much less likely to trigger than Impact, right (unless you're rolling surgeless whites)? I feel like this is something that a lot of people that complain about it forget.

well there need to be fix some where as all speeders need a small buff even if the seeder x let use dodges to block crits that be a start.

2 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

You know that the downside of Critical X is that it's much less likely to trigger than Impact, right (unless you're rolling surgeless whites)? I feel like this is something that a lot of people that complain about it forget.

Not in a large dice pool.
Shores with T21B + extra trooper
7black 2white Critical 1.

On 9 dice you the expected results are 1,125 natural crits and 1,125 surges. The critical 1 will convert a surge to crit.
It makes at least 2 crits which goes past cover and dodges. This is also before spending aim. And it works just as good against troopers and vehicles.
And you are not really firing an anti-vehicle weapon either. Rolling defense against those 2 crits with white dice is expected 0,66 so you will highly possible take 2 damage

1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

You know that the downside of Critical X is that it's much less likely to trigger than Impact, right (unless you're rolling surgeless whites)? I feel like this is something that a lot of people that complain about it forget.

Additionally, Cover X can prevent Impact, but not Critical X.

Maybe Cover X should remove X hit and/or surge results instead of acting as normal cover?

The other option is to increase offensive output, so maybe errata to include Tactical 1? You wouldn’t get the aim for compulsory move, so I think that wouldn’t be OP. It would just increase action efficiency offensively.

14 minutes ago, smickletz said:

Additionally, Cover X can prevent Impact, but not Critical X.

Maybe Cover X should remove X hit and/or surge results instead of acting as normal cover?

The other option is to increase offensive output, so maybe errata to include Tactical 1? You wouldn’t get the aim for compulsory move, so I think that wouldn’t be OP. It would just increase action efficiency offensively.

both are fair suggestion i like cove x suggestion it a slight buff. not over the top but still think dodge are the worst action at this point.

On 2/23/2020 at 9:35 PM, syrath said:

Is it,

Aat 4 red attack average per hit. = 3 against T47 RRRBBB = 4.25 per attack

Defense AAT 9/6 red dice. T47 7/5 white dice + surge

Yes the speeder has greater offense but If you put it back to 175 pts I think that it compares well with the AAT which does get barrage. Since it's harder to put down (and yes I know the speeder has cover, but it's taking more hits after rolling defense)

That duel situation would be the exception. Most of the time the T-47 would be up against lists without a heavy vehicle.
I think it is just fair that the T-47 usually looses a direct shootout against a stationary tank.
It should be a different kind of unit than the artillery pieces of other factions.

One (minor) advantage of the T-47 over other vehicles is that it is very difficult to hide key units from its attacks.
If each T-47 could potentially get 2 Attacks per activation, that ability could become very frustrating to play against.
Even if the opposing unit would be in heavy cover, it would probably have to roll 5 or 6 defence dice per T-47 activation with barrage, Linked Targeting Array and Aggressive Tactics.
If you catch the unit from an angle where it only has Suppression Tokens for defence, 2 T-47 could easily threaten the Emperor, Grievous or Vader with a back-to-back activation.

@Fistofriles
"well there need to be fix some where as all speeders need a small buff even if the seeder x let use dodges to block crits that be a start."

Given that Outmaneuver exists, it's unlikely they would alter the Speeder keyword to do that.

@HOBOBOI
"Not in a large dice pool.
Shores with T21B + extra trooper
7black 2white Critical 1.

On 9 dice you the expected results are 1,125 natural crits and 1,125 surges. The critical 1 will convert a surge to crit.
It makes at least 2 crits which goes past cover and dodges. This is also before spending aim. And it works just as good against troopers and vehicles.
And you are not really firing an anti-vehicle weapon either."

Those 7 black 2 white will also roll 2.875 hits. i.e. more likely to convert into an Impact than Critical 1. (outside cover 2, of course; but that's why Critical 1 is useful, it helps get past cover/dodge, whereas Impact doesn't).

2 hours ago, M.Mustermann said:

That duel situation would be the exception. Most of the time the T-47 would be up against lists without a heavy vehicle.
I think it is just fair that the T-47 usually looses a direct shootout against a stationary tank.
It should be a different kind of unit than the artillery pieces of other factions.

One (minor) advantage of the T-47 over other vehicles is that it is very difficult to hide key units from its attacks.
If each T-47 could potentially get 2 Attacks per activation, that ability could become very frustrating to play against.
Even if the opposing unit would be in heavy cover, it would probably have to roll 5 or 6 defence dice per T-47 activation with barrage, Linked Targeting Array and Aggressive Tactics.
If you catch the unit from an angle where it only has Suppression Tokens for defence, 2 T-47 could easily threaten the Emperor, Grievous or Vader with a back-to-back activation.

I hear what you are saying however if you take the most expensive weapon upgrades on each unit with the keyword Armor this is how it ends up

1st ATRT (7.5 EW)

2nd Aat (18 EW)

3rd Saber (18 EW) can spend dodges on crits

4th AT ST (16.5 EW)

5th Airspeeder (9EW

6th Occupier tank(16EW) gains heavy cover with barricades

So in effective wounds the airspeeder is marginally better than the worst unit defensively (which btw is half it's price)

Taking into account it's cost the airspeeder has the worst defense per cost of any Armor in the game (about half that of the ATRT which btw is second worst)

When looking at offense only the occupier tank is worse than the airspeeder after taking into account cost with a range of .024 normal wounds per point spent up to 0.042 wounds per point spent. For reference th AAT hits 0.037 so since the AAT is so much better defensively for its cost to balance it out the airspeeders would have to have a wound per point spent higher than this to balance it out which means it needs to do 40% more DMG than it currently does to even the playing field on offense (while it still lags majorly behind on defense, or alternatively it could come down in cost to 110 pts

This still factors in its maneuverability since it's offense would still only equal that of the AAT and be slightly better than the saber, but it would still be 50% of either on defense. Decreasing its points puts it behind the AAT and ahead of the saber on offense but closes the gap on defense.

This goes to show just now far off the mark the T47 when it's all but tied for both worst defense and worst offense of all Armor (not Armor X) units in the game at least once you factor in its cost. IMO it should be a glass cannon, it should have one of the highest offense. Another thing that would change it would be pierce and perhaps sharpshooter, as this wouldn't increase its ceiling on DMG but it would increase it's consistency.

19 minutes ago, syrath said:

I hear what you are saying however if you take the most expensive weapon upgrades on each unit with the keyword Armor this is how it ends up

1st ATRT (7.5 EW)

2nd Aat (18 EW)

3rd Saber (18 EW) can spend dodges on crits

4th AT ST (16.5 EW)

5th Airspeeder (9EW

6th Occupier tank(16EW) gains heavy cover with barricades

So in effective wounds the airspeeder is marginally better than the worst unit defensively (which btw is half it's price)

Taking into account it's cost the airspeeder has the worst defense per cost of any Armor in the game (about half that of the ATRT which btw is second worst)

When looking at offense only the occupier tank is worse than the airspeeder after taking into account cost with a range of .024 normal wounds per point spent up to 0.042 wounds per point spent. For reference th AAT hits 0.037 so since the AAT is so much better defensively for its cost to balance it out the airspeeders would have to have a wound per point spent higher than this to balance it out which means it needs to do 40% more DMG than it currently does to even the playing field on offense (while it still lags majorly behind on defense, or alternatively it could come down in cost to 110 pts

This still factors in its maneuverability since it's offense would still only equal that of the AAT and be slightly better than the saber, but it would still be 50% of either on defense. Decreasing its points puts it behind the AAT and ahead of the saber on offense but closes the gap on defense.

This goes to show just now far off the mark the T47 when it's all but tied for both worst defense and worst offense of all Armor (not Armor X) units in the game at least once you factor in its cost. IMO it should be a glass cannon, it should have one of the highest offense. Another thing that would change it would be pierce and perhaps sharpshooter, as this wouldn't increase its ceiling on DMG but it would increase it's consistency.

The T-47 has 10.5 effective wounds (white surge defense = 6/4 hp. Also, worth noting, every other heavy has Weak Point, ensuring bonus crits go through.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

The T-47 has 10.5 effective wounds (white surge defense = 6/4 hp. Also, worth noting, every other heavy has Weak Point, ensuring bonus crits go through.

Even at 10.5 it's still the weakest defensively of all Armor and the point still stands. Also given its been pointed out that it's position gives it an advantage on attacking other units who can't hide from it, this actually just means that it's open to return shots from just about the whole opposing army making it even easier to focus fire. IMO it is the single worst unit in the game ....... Still.

It's such a shame because it is still fun to play, just not fun to play competitively.

Edit white surge means it saves 1/3 so 9 wounds with 3 saves on average kills it with 6 wounds getting through. So unless my maths is wrong somehow ,

Fwiw weak point while relevant is situational in its very nature and even taking that into account the t47 will get destroyed quicker than any of the other Armor unless the opposing player starts with the game with said weak point pointing at the enemy and does nothing about it.

Please consider that maybe the problem is that “armored” units / not units that have an Armor X keyword should simply be impervious to any weapons that don’t have the Impact keyword? (i.e. small arms fire) ...That is the reason that tanks (armored units/vehicles) (IRL) were invented. There are so many instances where the Imperial tank, T-47, AT-ST etc. are taken out, or severely whittled down with natural crits from infantry rifles or pistols that is absurd. It makes the investment in armored units inviable, and is the reason why nearly every "competitive" batrep/tournament, is an infantry only game based on activation count. Perhaps I'm wrong but when most people think of STAR WARS, they think of the vehicles and technology that define the universe beyond the infantry & heroes; so it's pretty underwhelming when you have a bunch of really cool models that you aren't going to field if you want to actually "win" the game.

In addition the T-47 should have a longer range on its main. I understand why they started with range 3, but at this point in the development of the game, with so many range 4 infantry and armored unit weapons this should be revised; not to mention that it’s thematically (& realistically) unbelievable.

10 hours ago, Derrault said:

Those 7 black 2 white will also roll 2.875 hits. i.e. more likely to convert into an Impact than Critical 1. (outside cover 2, of course; but that's why Critical 1 is useful, it helps get past cover/dodge, whereas Impact doesn't).

That is probably some of the problem. Critical is just a easy way getting through the defense of all units even when they use upgrades (Jockey for cover 2), terrain, and an dodge action. If the Airspeeder had red defense dice I think it would be ok but with white...
An additional wording to the Speeder X rule like I suggested would remove this. After the attacker converts surges, by ability, spending tokens and using critical, the Speeder X unit gets to turn X results back to hits. If you got Impact this will not limit you much.
Lets say you attack with impact 2 and the result after modding - 2crits 2 hits.
Airspeeder - Speeder 2 would convert 2 crits back to hits - 4 hits
Cover 2 (Speeder Jockey) removes 2 hits - 2 goes through
You roll 2 white in defense - 2 blank

Seems fair? Or too good?
AT RT might be sad
After modifying surges
"Armor reduces 1 crit to hit"
"Speeder reduces 1 crit to hit"

Difficult! lol. But there needs be a change to how non-anti vehicle weapons can just make it up with throwing large dice pools and/or critical x.

9 hours ago, syrath said:

Even at 10.5 it's still the weakest defensively of all Armor and the point still stands. Also given its been pointed out that it's position gives it an advantage on attacking other units who can't hide from it, this actually just means that it's open to return shots from just about the whole opposing army making it even easier to focus fire. IMO it is the single worst unit in the game ....... Still.

It's such a shame because it is still fun to play, just not fun to play competitively.

Edit white surge means it saves 1/3 so 9 wounds with 3 saves on average kills it with 6 wounds getting through. So unless my maths is wrong somehow ,

Fwiw weak point while relevant is situational in its very nature and even taking that into account the t47 will get destroyed quicker than any of the other Armor unless the opposing player starts with the game with said weak point pointing at the enemy and does nothing about it.

It has 7 hp, not 6 (the AT-RT has 6)

If you wanted a tip or two on force preservation, I tend to commit them on flanks, where only the target and maybe one-two other units are even capable of return fire, and generally plan that attack for the end of the turn, so that there’s little or no chance of that happening (first-lasting on the first engagement if there are multiple units)

Ideally you exploit their speed to make those attacks are maximum range (so that slower trooper units can’t swarm to engage) and when it’s inconvenient for your opponent to do so (they would have to walk away from an objective).

Weak point is +.5 damage Per attack against the Red armor, and +.667 against the white surge.

4 hours ago, HOBOBOI said:

That is probably some of the problem. Critical is just a easy way getting through the defense of all units even when they use upgrades (Jockey for cover 2), terrain, and an dodge action. If the Airspeeder had red defense dice I think it would be ok but with white...
An additional wording to the Speeder X rule like I suggested would remove this. After the attacker converts surges, by ability, spending tokens and using critical, the Speeder X unit gets to turn X results back to hits. If you got Impact this will not limit you much.
Lets say you attack with impact 2 and the result after modding - 2crits 2 hits.
Airspeeder - Speeder 2 would convert 2 crits back to hits - 4 hits
Cover 2 (Speeder Jockey) removes 2 hits - 2 goes through
You roll 2 white in defense - 2 blank

Seems fair? Or too good?
AT RT might be sad
After modifying surges
"Armor reduces 1 crit to hit"
"Speeder reduces 1 crit to hit"

Difficult! lol. But there needs be a change to how non-anti vehicle weapons can just make it up with throwing large dice pools and/or critical x.

Critical is better against infantry, worse against armor.

So the snow speeder and at-st have the same exact save (white with surge) and both have full armor. But I never hear people complain about the at-st (at least not to the same extent as the t47) what does the at-st have that the t47 doesnt? Do the 4 extra hitpoints really make that much a difference? But the at-st doesnt get the benefit of cover like the t47.

16 minutes ago, lunitic501 said:

So the snow speeder and at-st have the same exact save (white with surge) and both have full armor. But I never hear people complain about the at-st (at least not to the same extent as the t47) what does the at-st have that the t47 doesnt? Do the 4 extra hitpoints really make that much a difference? But the at-st doesnt get the benefit of cover like the t47.

4 hitpoints is a big deal, but a lot of the people who complain about the Airspeeder dying too easily flew it into range of their opponent's entire army on turn 1 or 2. The Airspeeder comes to you, but anything that wants to kill the AT-ST generally has to go to it and take a beating in the process.

22 minutes ago, lunitic501 said:

So the snow speeder and at-st have the same exact save (white with surge) and both have full armor. But I never hear people complain about the at-st (at least not to the same extent as the t47) what does the at-st have that the t47 doesnt? Do the 4 extra hitpoints really make that much a difference? But the at-st doesnt get the benefit of cover like the t47.

The AT-ST can sit back and use range 4 to limit the enemy's ability to effectively shoot at it. The T-47 is only range 3, and is forced to move very quickly forward every activation, meaning it is usually getting shot at a lot more.

Interesting that no one can really agree on the best way to help the poor thing. Compare that to pretty much everyone calling the nurfs that the shores and tauntans took. Maybe because the core concept of the T-47 does not work?

I know they want to play super passive with point changes, but hopefully they try again with this one. I would be okay with them making this one op for a year.

@arnoldrew
"a lot of the people who complain about the Airspeeder dying too easily flew it into range of their opponent's entire army on turn 1 or 2."

I think this is the crux, this is sign of bad play, not a sign of a bad unit. After all, if you move a unit (any unit) into range of the entire enemy army, expect it to get melted. There's no reason to do that with Luke Skywalker or a Rebel Trooper, let alone a T-47.

Is that really how the detractors were planning on using their heavies? Because if you do that with your GAR tanks, they're toast with that side Weak Point.

@HOBOBOI
"Maybe the design of Critical X is flawed too? Its a boost against all unit types and is an additional reason why dodge action is often a waste.
It also makes Crit x preferable to take instead of an impact 1 or exhaust impact 3 weapon. Because critical results dont care about cover or dodges!
Went a bit off course here but Im cheering on some RRG changes"

I don't know that there are many units where there's an actual choice here. i.e. Most units have access to one OR the other, but not both, only with the addition of the Rebel Trooper and Stormtrooper upgrade packs were some of these possible to choose between.

As eluded to by several other posters I feel that the compulsory move is what makes this unit (and other units with compulsory move) far less desirable.

If you were to take a T-47 with 1-2 upgrades its basically the same points as 2 x rotary canon AT-RT's

Benefits of 2 x AT-RT's over 1 x T-47 are:

2 activations over 1

Nearly twice as much combined health as the T-47

Average damage output is 3.125 per At-RT (total of 6.25 across 2 attacks) vs. 3.75 for the single T-47

Ability to hold an optimal position and defend it, and in some instances score points for objectives whereas the T-47 can't sit still and has to keep moving putting it in less optimal locations preventing focus fire or consistent area control.

Realistically until more objectives like bombing run turn up that take advantage of the T-47's speed as a benefit rather than a hindrance I can't see it being competitive.

For me, compulsury moves aren't a problem, it's essentially a free action that has to be slightly planned around.

The bigger issue in my opinion is my perception of paying for "Arsenal 2" on the unit itself when all of the additional weapons are rear facing, making it difficult to utilize both weapons in a single turn without putting the T-47 far forward, away from any support.

44 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I think this is the crux, this is sign of bad play, not a sign of a bad unit. After all, if you move a unit (any unit) into range of the entire enemy army, expect it to get melted. There's no reason to do that with Luke Skywalker or a Rebel Trooper, let alone a T-47.

No reason other than that very long compulsory speed 3 move with a 100mm base unit?

I mean sure you could fly sideways and land on friendly units to avoid being shot at if that's what a good player would do....

2 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

As eluded to by several other posters I feel that the compulsory move is what makes this unit (and other units with compulsory move) far less desirable.

If you were to take a T-47 with 1-2 upgrades its basically the same points as 2 x rotary canon AT-RT's

Benefits of 2 x AT-RT's over 1 x T-47 are:

2 activations over 1

Nearly twice as much combined health as the T-47

Average damage output is 3.125 per At-RT (total of 6.25 across 2 attacks) vs. 3.75 for the single T-47

Ability to hold an optimal position and defend it, and in some instances score points for objectives whereas the T-47 can't sit still and has to keep moving putting it in less optimal locations preventing focus fire or consistent area control.

Realistically until more objectives like bombing run turn up that take advantage of the T-47's speed as a benefit rather than a hindrance I can't see it being competitive.

Alluded to. (To elude is to avoid).

If you add the ground buzzer, it’s 10 points, which is the same as two AT-RTs with a weapon upgrade each. Then it’s 5.5 damage in one attack vs the 6.25 from the AT-RTs across two activations. One of the nice things about having more damage in a single activation is that you attrit your opponent more before they can act. Having to wait several activations to get your damage out is actually a hindrance. The sole benefit to more activations is attempting to force your opponent to act first, and then somehow exploit that. If you can’t exploit it, it’s a waste.

AT-RTs have more wounds, but they only roll white no surge dice, saving for 1/2 what the T-47 does; nor do they have cover (which sets a minimum number of successes to benefit from impact), nor are they immune to blast or range one weapons. Meaning any infantry unit can lay them out with impact or frag grenades.

The slowness of the RT is a major impediment, it can’t attack and double move, meaning it can’t maneuver for a shot easily, and it’s low to the ground, so it can’t circumvent cover on targets as easily. Being forced to fire into heavy cover is a -2 penalty, and that’s a big deal, effectively reducing the damage output to 1.125, which against a red save is .5625 damage. Worse, if you take that weapon option for the RT, you’re forgoing utility against armor. The T-47 doesn’t have to choose. It is the single best anti-armor tool that the Rebels have, the issue is more that few players have gone in big on armor in the competitive scene.

That is extremely likely to change with the AAT coming online. I wouldn’t be surprised if most CIS players ran one or two of them, given the buzz.

And Mace, the compulsory move is pure benefit, you can run loop de loops if you want, or zig zag easily.

Given what we see in the movie: They should be completely immune to anything smaller than an e-web. And dedicated anti-vehicle weapons like shoulder missile launchers. Let the points fall where they may.