2 hours ago, Lochlan said:

Unless the attacker has Critical X and Impact X (and there aren't very many of those), Critical X does not give a single hoot about cover if the defender has full Armor. True, it's certainly not as reliable against armor as Impact, but it is reliable (and common) enough that it can definitely bring down armored targets.

Critical X isnt anywhere near as strong as Impact is against vehicles in general especially Impact 2 and 3. Frankly with any vehicle if you are telling me I only have to worry about 1 surge and Critical hits to hurt me, than that is a fairly tanky vehicle. There are only a couple of guns that have critical as well and unless the entire army has them you are looking at 2 to 3 shots a turn at most with critical.

Drop it another 20 points.

With the new tanks the impact 3 is gonna come in handy more often.

It just needs to be less of a handicap when you don't see armor across the table.

3 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

You are vastly overestimating the effectiveness of Critical X if you think it makes Cover 2 "worthless". You do know there's only 1 surge symbol on each die, right?

I will admit that worthless is taking it too far but vastly overestimating? Critical x does not care about cover or armor. It is quite good even though its only converting 1 surge
Thanks for informing me but yes, I do know there is 1 surge on each die! . But when attacking, you often throw not only a few dice.

Shoretroopers with T21B
84 points
8 dice.

Expected results are 1 critical and 1 surge which will be crit.
2 crits. Hits irrelevant due to Armor. Cover 2 does nothing.

Or do you prefer taking something with more Impact? Stormtrooper + extra trooper and an HH12 with cumbersome and exhaust? (nobody uses this but it does provide an anti-vehicle weapon)
81 points
8 dice
Expected hits 2,75 and 1 crit. Cover 2 - 2 hits goes away and your left with 1-2 crits after the Impact 3

1 hour ago, Uetur said:

Critical X isnt anywhere near as strong as Impact is against vehicles in general

I mean, I did point that out...

But there are way more than "a couple" weapons with Critical. Rebels have 3 (1 of which has Fire Support), Empire has 6 (1 of which has Fire Support, and 2 of which are on the Dewback), Republic has 6 (2 of which have Fire Support, and 2 of which are on the Saber), and CIS has 3.

But Critical is important to the discussion about the T-47 specifically because it has innate cover, and an upgrade to give it more cover. Cover can prevent Impact, but it can't do anything to other crits.

Airspeeder needs its main gun to be range 4 and it needs the barrage keyword

19 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

I mean, I did point that out...

But there are way more than "a couple" weapons with Critical. Rebels have 3 (1 of which has Fire Support), Empire has 6 (1 of which has Fire Support, and 2 of which are on the Dewback), Republic has 6 (2 of which have Fire Support, and 2 of which are on the Saber), and CIS has 3.

But Critical is important to the discussion about the T-47 specifically because it has innate cover, and an upgrade to give it more cover. Cover can prevent Impact, but it can't do anything to other crits.

When looking at the typical LVO top 8 list you will see there are 4 lists that have 4 units with a critical weapon, the remaining lists are 6,2,0,0. When you consider that on average half of all those lists are mortar teams throwing 3 white dice at range 3 to 4 with cumbersome it is really fair to say the average T-47 is only going to be hit by a "couple" of weapons a turn. If I told a Rebel player those hard hitting shoretrooper units are going to be dropping 2 hits a turn on the T47 when the T47 chooses to engage versus shooting the other non-armor infantry units I would take that everytime. The T-47 doesn't have a critical problem it has a points problem.

48 minutes ago, HOBOBOI said:

I will admit that worthless is taking it too far but vastly overestimating? Critical x does not care about cover or armor. It is quite good even though its only converting 1 surge
Thanks for informing me but yes, I do know there is 1 surge on each die! . But when attacking, you often throw not only a few dice.

Shoretroopers with T21B
84 points
8 dice.

Expected results are 1 critical and 1 surge which will be crit.
2 crits. Hits irrelevant due to Armor. Cover 2 does nothing.

Or do you prefer taking something with more Impact? Stormtrooper + extra trooper and an HH12 with cumbersome and exhaust? (nobody uses this but it does provide an anti-vehicle weapon)
81 points
8 dice
Expected hits 2,75 and 1 crit. Cover 2 - 2 hits goes away and your left with 1-2 crits after the Impact 3

This is what I like to call a best case scenario for the T47. Let's assume there are 2 Shoretrooper units on your standard list which was true for most of the Top 8 LVO lists. When it chose to engage the Shoretroopers are hitting for an average of two hits a turn for two units. It will save at least one of those hits which it should it took two really hard hitting imperial units, that cost more than it out of the gunline and they won't kill it for at least 2.5 turns on average. It also got to fire at something for an average 3.75 hits per turn. The issue is the points and the Meta, not Critical X.

46 minutes ago, Uetur said:

This is what I like to call a best case scenario for the T47. Let's assume there are 2 Shoretrooper units on your standard list which was true for most of the Top 8 LVO lists. When it chose to engage the Shoretroopers are hitting for an average of two hits a turn for two units. It will save at least one of those hits which it should it took two really hard hitting imperial units, that cost more than it out of the gunline and they won't kill it for at least 2.5 turns on average. It also got to fire at something for an average 3.75 hits per turn. The issue is the points and the Meta, not Critical X.

I don’t have to assume, I played against a shore trooper + mortar, Krennic, Bossk, Deathtroopers, Sniper Strike team army.

T-47s easily ran down the strike teams and then pivoted to disrupt and harry the mortars. That load out really just doesn’t have what it takes to fight armor, there’s just too little impact to get the job done in 6 rounds.

53 minutes ago, Uetur said:

This is what I like to call a best case scenario for the T47. Let's assume there are 2 Shoretrooper units on your standard list which was true for most of the Top 8 LVO lists. When it chose to engage the Shoretroopers are hitting for an average of two hits a turn for two units. It will save at least one of those hits which it should it took two really hard hitting imperial units, that cost more than it out of the gunline and they won't kill it for at least 2.5 turns on average. It also got to fire at something for an average 3.75 hits per turn. The issue is the points and the Meta, not Critical X.

Well the Meta consists a lot of critical X units. The most used upgrade at LVO was the T21B. Also a lot of Shores includes Mortars in their list which also got critical 1 and can fire support too.
LVO also did not include the Trooper Upgrade expansions which offer new good Critical X option for all factions. Range 4 too

I've never ment to say that Critical X is the only problem but I think its an increasing reason why not to take a glass cannon Airspeeder. A unit most people did not want to bring in the first place because of its poor value for its cost. You could as you imply and many others here suggest just reduce the cost but how much would be fair? I think it needs some more errata or rules addition/changes in the RRG.
To be honest it would also make the unit more interesting piece to play.

On 2/26/2020 at 7:51 PM, SoonerTed said:

Why not Wookies? Also, Landspeeders aren't immune to blast or grenades.

The Landspeeder is a glass cannon. To use Arsenal 3 you have to either overspend on upgrades or get it at range 2, risking melee attacks.

Fleet troopers with the mpl wreck landspeeders just saying.