41 minutes ago, Sobonis01 said:Part of me thinks dropping Vader putting a different commander and putting on individual dice control on each ship.
Yeah... I was thinking that switching from Vader to Romodi and giving all the ships some dice control might be the better option here. Besides, in my list, OSD —> OTB & Vader —> Romodi saves 30 points. That’s a LOT, even if I have to spend a few more points on Ordnance Experts here and there.
46 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:
Yeah... I was thinking that switching from Vader to Romodi and giving all the ships some dice control might be the better option here. Besides, in my list, OSD —> OTB & Vader —> Romodi saves 30 points. That’s a LOT, even if I have to spend a few more points on Ordnance Experts here and there.
I agree with Romodi his only my only concern is that he does not help out black dice ships that much. Part of me wants to try Screed for crits on the OSD superweapon and demo.
OSD And 5 Activations. V2 (385/400)
Empire
Commander: General Romodi
Objectives: Contested Outpost, Solar Corona, Surprise Attack
[flagship] Onager-class Star Destroyer (110)
- General Romodi (20)
- Cataclysm (5)
- Intel Officer (7)
- Orbital Bombardment Particle Cannons (5)
- XI7 Turbolasers (6)
- Veteran Gunners (5)
- Gunnery Chief Varnillian (6)
= 164 total points
Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer (56)
- Demolisher (10)
- Intel Officer (7)
- Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
- Engine Techs (8)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 92 total points
Raider I-class Corvette (44)
- Hondo Ohnaka (2)
- External Racks (3)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 53 total points
Raider I-class Corvette (44)
- External Racks (3)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 51 total points
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
- Comms Net (2)
= 25 total points
5 hours ago, Sobonis01 said:I agree with Romodi his only my only concern is that he does not help out black dice ships that much. Part of me wants to try Screed for crits on the OSD superweapon and demo.
Ah, you’re right, Romodi would be terrible with the close ranged brawlers.
Screed could be much better.
2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:Ah, you’re right, Romodi would be terrible with the close ranged brawlers.
Screed could be much better.
On that note! I dropped cataclysm and Hondo, but kept the core of the list with screws to guarantee of black crit or red crit. Feel like I should change the title of this thread.
OSD And 5 Activations Mk III (384/400)
Empire
Commander: Admiral Screed
Objectives: Contested Outpost, Solar Corona, Surprise Attack
[flagship] Onager-class Star Destroyer (110)
- Admiral Screed (26)
- Intel Officer (7)
- Orbital Bombardment Particle Cannons (5)
- XI7 Turbolasers (6)
- Gunnery Chief Varnillian (6)
- Veteran Gunners (5)
= 165 total points
Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer (56)
- Demolisher (10)
- Intel Officer (7)
- Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
- Engine Techs (8)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 92 total points
Raider I-class Corvette (44)
- External Racks (3)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 51 total points
Raider I-class Corvette (44)
- External Racks (3)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 51 total points
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
- Comms Net (2)
= 25 total points
3 hours ago, Sobonis01 said:On that note! I dropped cataclysm and Hondo, but kept the core of the list with screws to guarantee of black crit or red crit. Feel like I should change the title of this thread.
OSD And 5 Activations Mk III (384/400)
EmpireCommander: Admiral Screed
Objectives: Contested Outpost, Solar Corona, Surprise Attack
[flagship] Onager-class Star Destroyer (110)
- Admiral Screed (26)
- Intel Officer (7)
- Orbital Bombardment Particle Cannons (5)
- XI7 Turbolasers (6)
- Gunnery Chief Varnillian (6)
- Veteran Gunners (5)
= 165 total pointsGladiator I-class Star Destroyer (56)
- Demolisher (10)
- Intel Officer (7)
- Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
- Engine Techs (8)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 92 total pointsRaider I-class Corvette (44)
- External Racks (3)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 51 total pointsRaider I-class Corvette (44)
- External Racks (3)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 51 total pointsGozanti-class Cruisers (23)
- Comms Net (2)
= 25 total points
See, having played something very like this, let me reiterate what I learned: You should turn the OSD into an OTB, drop a Gozanti OR downgrade a Raider to a Gozanti, and use those 30-40 points to add some sort of anti-fighter plan. You already have the firepower to kill any ship, the question is how long will it take you, and will their fighters get you first? I initially thought “kill the carriers before the fighters get you” was solid. But if the carrier is a Starhawk, you need a better plan, or a delaying force of fighters.
Also: I don’t think Screed is the answer, at least not for me. The spent die always bugs me with Screed, and I’m not a guy who’s typically willing to run Concentrate Fire commands to make up for the lost die... I’m usually too busy maneuvering, especially with Demo. Dropping all of the Ordnance Experts and Screed is exactly the cost of Vader anyway, and I think Vader’s where I’d rather be. Either that, or Ozzel, who I think is actually good with ships like this, especially in a world of Magnite Crystal Tractor Beams. Or maybe Romodi after all; thinking back to the test games I played, my targets were obstructed most of the time in the Doomed Station scenario. Maybe just keeping him from wanting to try to obstruct shots would be enough of a win, even if I don’t always get the extra bonus die from General Romodi.
Here's a Onager using the SCBT. I think its a mistake not to use both gunnery slots. I want to hit as many crits as possible and go after the enemy's biggest ship fast and hard hopefully hitting it twice before it can respond. The Harrow is to provide muscle in case something bigger closes in and the raider is to provide flak and go after corvettes or flotillas. Onager Screed Author: mj10982 Faction: Empire Commander: Admiral Screed Assault Objective: None Defense Objective: None Navigation Objective: None [flagship] Onager-Class Star Destroyer (110) - Admiral Screed (26) - Cataclysm (5) - Commander Vanto (7) - Superheavy Composite Beam Turbolasers (7) - Linked Turbolaser Towers (7) - Weapons Battery Techs (5) - Gunnery Chief Varnillian (6) = 173 points Raider I-Class Corvette (44) - Corvus (2) - Iden Versio (6) - External Racks (3) - Ordnance Experts (4) = 59 points Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73) - Harrow (3) - Captain Brunson (5) - Expanded Launchers (13) - Engine Techs (8) - XI7 Turbolasers (6) - Ordnance Experts (4) = 112 points 1 "Mauler" Mithel (15) 1 Valen Rudor (13) 1 Ciena Ree (17) = 45 points
2 hours ago, Mj10982 said:Here's a Onager using the SCBT. I think its a mistake not to use both gunnery slots. I want to hit as many crits as possible and go after the enemy's biggest ship fast and hard hopefully hitting it twice before it can respond. The Harrow is to provide muscle in case something bigger closes in and the raider is to provide flak and go after corvettes or flotillas. Onager Screed Author: mj10982 Faction: Empire Commander: Admiral Screed Assault Objective: None Defense Objective: None Navigation Objective: None [flagship] Onager-Class Star Destroyer (110) - Admiral Screed (26) - Cataclysm (5) - Commander Vanto (7) - Superheavy Composite Beam Turbolasers (7) - Linked Turbolaser Towers (7) - Weapons Battery Techs (5) - Gunnery Chief Varnillian (6) = 173 points Raider I-Class Corvette (44) - Corvus (2) - Iden Versio (6) - External Racks (3) - Ordnance Experts (4) = 59 points Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73) - Harrow (3) - Captain Brunson (5) - Expanded Launchers (13) - Engine Techs (8) - XI7 Turbolasers (6) - Ordnance Experts (4) = 112 points 1 "Mauler" Mithel (15) 1 Valen Rudor (13) 1 Ciena Ree (17) = 45 points
I would get rid of mauler and expanded launchers. I would put acms on the Vic 1. I would put a flotilla in there as well for a activation, and token passing. You can put sunder one the OSD, to weaken your enemy.
I like the Cataclysm title in order to make firing the SCBT easier. I don't want to miss a shot because my target darted out of my arc.
Maybe i should downgrade the Harrow to a Demolisher?
Edited by Mj1098215 minutes ago, Mj10982 said:I like the Cataclysm title in order to make firing the SCBT easier. I don't want to miss a shot because my target darted out of my arc.
Maybe i should downgrade the Harrow to a Demolisher?
That was going to be my suggestion, as well as adding a Gozanti with EHB and Hondo for dedicated squadron activations (instead of giving the OSD Squadron commands) and to pass a CF token to Cataclysm in Round 1. But Demolisher with Engine Techs, ACM, OE, and Brunson cost 197 points. If you went with Expanded Launchers it would be 402 points. Alternatively, you could go against META and use Insidious instead.
Onager Star Destroyer (110)
• Admiral Screed (26)
• Intel Officer (7)
• Gunnery Chief Varnillian (6)
• Weapons Battery Techs (5)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Superheavy Composite Beam Turbolasers (7)
• Cataclysm (5)
= 173 Points
Gladiator I (56)
• Captain Brunson (5)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Engine Techs (8)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
• Demolisher (10)
or:
Insidious (3)
= 90 Points (
or:
83 points with Insidious)
Raider I (44)
• Iden Versio (6)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• External Racks (3)
• Corvus (2)
= 59 Points
Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Hondo Ohnaka (2)
• Expanded Hangar Bay (5)
= 30 Points
Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Mauler Mithel (15)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 45 Points
Total Points: 397 ( or: 390 points with Insidious)
As I mentioned earlier, the problem with the VSD is you'll probably only get one frontal arc black dice shot. If your target changes its speed or you time your activations wrong, you might even miss your one shot. Whereas if you used Insidious, you could deploy the GSD on the far side of the DZ and perform a wide flanking maneuver, at Speed 3 and using ET, to swing into the rear arc of your primary target in Round 3 or 4. That type of maneuver should keep you out of range of any big ships' powerful firing arcs, and even a CR90A or MC30 SC shouldn't be able to stop you. If you pull it off, you can reduce speed, hover in the target ship's rear arc, and blast away. This is exactly what I use Expanded Launchers for -- although ACM works nearly as well.
With Demolisher, you'll probably be going straight at your primary target, or turning into your primary target. Against a Starhawk or Mon Cal ship, that's a suicide run. The best your could hope for is that Demolisher pulls off the perfect last-first attack and escapes, and is probably out of the fight for the rest of the game. The more plausible scenario is Demolisher will limp away with 1 or 2 hull points and desperately try to survive.
Whereas Insidious would be relatively safe in the primary target's rear arc, could keep attacking Rounds 4-6, and any larger ship can't outmaneuver or outrun a GSD with ET. Realistically, any large ship caught in the cross-fire between an OSD and GSD are going to be destroyed in 2-3 rounds.
Another option is to switch Screed for Ozzel. As I mentioned earlier, Screed forces you to spend a die to change a die to a Crit. Your ships already have numerous dice changing Upgrades so I don't think you need Screed, especially if you choose Expanded Launchers over ACM. Ozzel isn't just the cheapest Imp Commander, but his ability is actually useful for your ships. Insidious would be moving at Speed 3 to execute its flanking turn; then when it gets into the enemy ship's rear arc, it might need to drop to Speed 1 to stay there. Or, since you're saving 6 points with Ozzel, you could afford Demolisher, and you could change speed rapidly depending on the situation. Same idea with the Raider; it will probably be going Speed 3 or 4, and it could be useful to drop 2 speeds. The OSD would be the opposite. It could be at Speed 0 or 1, and need to jump to Speed 2 or 3. I often do this with the Onager because around Round 4, if the enemy's big ships aren't dead, have closed in on the OSD, and will move into its side arcs next round, it's time to get the **** out of there by jumping to Speed 3. Those big ships won't be able to turn around and catch the OSD as it escapes.
Romodi is another 20-point option, but probably only the OSD would be able to take advantage of his ability because your ships are rolling a lot of black die, and the odds of close range shots being obstructed are fairly low.
1 hour ago, Reavern said:Whereas Insidious would be relatively safe in the primary target's rear arc, could keep attacking Rounds 4-6, and any larger ship can't outmaneuver or outrun a GSD with ET.
Given the way pursuit works, forcing medium range shots from behind is unlikely; you’d basically need to be touching their rear arc each round.
Even first last (rare with 4 activations) can only ensure a shot every other round.
In the same position, Demolisher can get close and long range shots every round, on speed 3 targets.
So you can fly Demolisher like Insidious and usually get the same or better results.
Not a fan of Insidious. Demolisher should be stapled to the Gladiator card imo. Dropped Mauler. Suppressor can squadron command Valen/Cienna. Gladiator hunts down smaller ships or finishes off the Cataclysm's target. Corvus fights squadrons and backs up the Demolisher. Screed might be overkill considering I have LTT and my two gunnery slots. Maybe put in Motti? He'd give 6 hull total.
Onager Screed Author: mj10982 Faction: Empire Commander: Admiral Screed Assault Objective: None Defense Objective: None Navigation Objective: None [flagship] Onager-Class Star Destroyer (110) - Admiral Screed (26) - Cataclysm (5) - Commander Vanto (7) - Superheavy Composite Beam Turbolasers (7) - Linked Turbolaser Towers (7) - Weapons Battery Techs (5) - Gunnery Chief Varnillian (6) = 173 points Raider I-Class Corvette (44) - Corvus (2) - Iden Versio (6) - External Racks (3) - Ordnance Experts (4) = 59 points Gozanti-Class Cruisers (23) - Suppressor (4) - Electronic Countermeasures (7) - Slicer Tools (7) - Minister Tua (2) = 43 points Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56) - Demolisher (10) - Captain Brunson (5) - Rapid Reload (8) - Engine Techs (8) - Ordnance Experts (4) = 91 points 1 Valen Rudor (13) 1 Ciena Ree (17) = 30 points
36 minutes ago, Mj10982 said:Not a fan of Insidious. Demolisher should be stapled to the Gladiator card imo. Dropped Mauler. Suppressor can squadron command Valen/Cienna. Gladiator hunts down smaller ships or finishes off the Cataclysm's target. Corvus fights squadrons and backs up the Demolisher. Screed might be overkill considering I have LTT and my two gunnery slots. Maybe put in Motti? He'd give 6 hull total.
Onager Screed Author: mj10982 Faction: Empire Commander: Admiral Screed Assault Objective: None Defense Objective: None Navigation Objective: None [flagship] Onager-Class Star Destroyer (110) - Admiral Screed (26) - Cataclysm (5) - Commander Vanto (7) - Superheavy Composite Beam Turbolasers (7) - Linked Turbolaser Towers (7) - Weapons Battery Techs (5) - Gunnery Chief Varnillian (6) = 173 points Raider I-Class Corvette (44) - Corvus (2) - Iden Versio (6) - External Racks (3) - Ordnance Experts (4) = 59 points Gozanti-Class Cruisers (23) - Suppressor (4) - Electronic Countermeasures (7) - Slicer Tools (7) - Minister Tua (2) = 43 points Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56) - Demolisher (10) - Captain Brunson (5) - Rapid Reload (8) - Engine Techs (8) - Ordnance Experts (4) = 91 points 1 Valen Rudor (13) 1 Ciena Ree (17) = 30 points
I would put intel officer on the OSD, and I would put acm on GSD. Also vet gunners and gunnery V is a great combo. I think Motti is a good idea as he will make your whole fleet stronger. I would swap the blue flotilla with a red dice model and put repair crews on them. You can use them to patch up the OSD and con fire for two reds vs the inbound horde.
8 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:Given the way pursuit works, forcing medium range shots from behind is unlikely; you’d basically need to be touching their rear arc each round.
Even first last (rare with 4 activations) can only ensure a shot every other round.
In the same position, Demolisher can get close and long range shots every round, on speed 3 targets.
So you can fly Demolisher like Insidious and usually get the same or better results.
It's actually very easy to stay at medium range of the target ship if it's travelling Speed 1 or 2. It's only at Speed 3 that it gets difficult and Insidious will be beyond medium range every other round. But Armada is only 6 rounds and Insidious probably won't get into position until Round 3 or 4. And the target ship isn't going to last very long.
4 activations is better than average ever since Wave 8 was released.
Regardless, 4 or more activations probably means the enemy is running mostly small ships, so Insidious either isn't going to get any shots against the enemy's small, fast ships (Demolisher would have the same problem because GSDs mostly roll black dice), or Insidious will get 1 shot per ship, which is all it should need, because no small ship has more than 5 hull and 2 rear shields.
Don't get me wrong, Demolisher is far. But when points are critical, Insidious isn't bad. IME Insidious doesn't die nearly as often as Demolisher because Dem is high risk-high reward.
3 hours ago, Reavern said:It's actually very easy to stay at medium range of the target ship if it's travelling Speed 1 or 2. It's only at Speed 3 that it gets difficult and Insidious will be beyond medium range every other round. But Armada is only 6 rounds and Insidious probably won't get into position until Round 3 or 4. And the target ship isn't going to last very long.
4 activations is better than average ever since Wave 8 was released.
Regardless, 4 or more activations probably means the enemy is running mostly small ships, so Insidious either isn't going to get any shots against the enemy's small, fast ships (Demolisher would have the same problem because GSDs mostly roll black dice), or Insidious will get 1 shot per ship, which is all it should need, because no small ship has more than 5 hull and 2 rear shields.
Don't get me wrong, Demolisher is far. But when points are critical, Insidious isn't bad. IME Insidious doesn't die nearly as often as Demolisher because Dem is high risk-high reward.
The difference in length between a straight speed 2 maneuver and medium range is around 1.25 inches. There's a little room from flexibility in angle and the assumption that the target won't make a straight maneuver, but it's still a very close thing.
Additionally, only 20% of fleets dipped below 4 activations according to the 2019-2020 Primes data, whereas 63% of fleets had 1 or more large ships. Assuming all MSU brings more than 3 activations, around 43% of lists had a large ship and 4 or more activations without even accounting for SSD lists to skew the data further.
It's definitely a thing, even with the birth of Hawk + 134.
Demolisher is much better suited to popping a small ship in 1-2 hits, with its battery effectively extending beyond red range in the direction it travels. It can also fork from a greater range and isn't first player dependent.
But my ultimate point is this: Insidious is a solid flanker/finisher, but situational. Demolisher is a more versatile tool capable of being played aggressively or in the same roles Insidious likes, which is probably why it appeared in 39% of winning Imperial fleets. Those extra 7 points are something to shift other elements of the fleet around.
Emphasis on statistical evidence to avoid subjectivity.
Edited by The Jabbawookie
The first GSD in a list should almost always be Demolisher. Insidious is the title you give to the (unlikely) second GSD.
13 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:The first GSD in a list should almost always be Demolisher. Insidious is the title you give to the (unlikely) second GSD.
I could not agree more.
20 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:Additionally, only 20% of fleets dipped below 4 activations according to the 2019-2020 Primes data, whereas 63% of fleets had 1 or more large ships. Assuming all MSU brings more than 3 activations, around 43% of lists had a large ship and 4 or more activations without even accounting for SSD lists to skew the data further.
Wave 8 has only been released for a month. Even if the 2020 Primes data includes Wave 8 builds, competitive players won't have adopted the Wave 8 ships so soon. Competitive players have practiced and honed their builds for the past year. They're not going to hastily abandon their proven builds and switch to a Starhawk or Onager build overnight. So the statistics don't tell the whole story. Give it another 6 months and we'll see how the statistics shift.
1 hour ago, Reavern said:Wave 8 has only been released for a month. Even if the 2020 Primes data includes Wave 8 builds, competitive players won't have adopted the Wave 8 ships so soon. Competitive players have practiced and honed their builds for the past year. They're not going to hastily abandon their proven builds and switch to a Starhawk or Onager build overnight. So the statistics don't tell the whole story. Give it another 6 months and we'll see how the statistics shift.
No doubt they will.
But the future is conjecture. Right now, 4 activations is common (and likely to stay that way, unless most players adopt Starhawk squadron builds and 2 Ship) and Demolisher is wildly successful (and has been for the last 5 years, and likely will stay that way, barring an errata.)
I have difficulty telling people to adopt a less successful option now based on the belief it will become more successful. If Insidious starts cleaning up, I'm ready to change my tune.
The simple fact is that even if Insidious is underrated (and I personally think it is), Demolisher is so much better than Insidious that 7 points more is a steal.
Let’s face it, I’d probably still run Demolisher regularly if the title were 15 points. And I STILL wouldn’t ever run Insidious unless it was on my second GSD.
If you don’t believe in the power of the Demolisher, go build a list with a properly kitted-out Demo and a 15+ point bid, and watch it rip half the hull points off of a Starhawk with a double-arced last/first.
11 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:The simple fact is that even if Insidious is underrated (and I personally think it is), Demolisher is so much better than Insidious that 7 points more is a steal.
Let’s face it, I’d probably still run Demolisher regularly if the title were 15 points. And I STILL wouldn’t ever run Insidious unless it was on my second GSD.
If you don’t believe in the power of the Demolisher, go build a list with a properly kitted-out Demo and a 15+ point bid, and watch it rip half the hull points off of a Starhawk with a double-arced last/first.
I have run Double GSD builds and used both Demolisher and Insidious. IME my opponents focused so much on Demolisher that Insidious was virtually ignored. There's strategy in using an under-estimated ship or ship title.
For example, using Gozanti Assault Carriers. A lot of players would consider it foolish to spend those 5 extra points, but there are situations wherein a cheap Command 1 ship with a red die suddenly becomes 2 red dice with a CF command, which is just what you need to finish off an enemy ship with 1 or 2 hull points remaining.
That's why I don't hesitate to use Insidious because most players dismiss it immediately.
1 hour ago, Reavern said:I have run Double GSD builds and used both Demolisher and Insidious. IME my opponents focused so much on Demolisher that Insidious was virtually ignored. There's strategy in using an under-estimated ship or ship title.
For example, using Gozanti Assault Carriers. A lot of players would consider it foolish to spend those 5 extra points, but there are situations wherein a cheap Command 1 ship with a red die suddenly becomes 2 red dice with a CF command, which is just what you need to finish off an enemy ship with 1 or 2 hull points remaining.
That's why I don't hesitate to use Insidious because most players dismiss it immediately.
As you just admitted, though, players ignore Insidious if Demolisher is already on the table. Nobody is saying Insidious is terrible (at least, I’m not); I’m just saying if you have only one GSD, it should be Demolisher. Insidious is always GSD #2.
As for the Assault Carriers, they’re only remotely worth it if Romodi is your commander, in my opinion.
7 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:As for the Assault Carriers, they’re only remotely worth it if Romodi is your commander, in my opinion.
That’s definitely a case for them.
I think they’re also worth considering with Intensify Firepower, but have a hard time justifying them over just tacking Disposable Capacitors onto a normal Gozanti. Slightly more reliable damage (since you’re just plinking anyway that’s a good thing) two points cheaper, works out the side, and you often won’t be getting multiple long range front arc shots from a flotilla.
16 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:That’s definitely a case for them.
I think they’re also worth considering with Intensify Firepower, but have a hard time justifying them over just tacking Disposable Capacitors onto a normal Gozanti. Slightly more reliable damage (since you’re just plinking anyway that’s a good thing) two points cheaper, works out the side, and you often won’t be getting multiple long range front arc shots from a flotilla.
The other thing I have used the flotilla for is an addition flak unit while the OSD is getting attacked by bombers.