7 hours ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

Hope they don’t jack with the point costs of units people have spent money on already... how about making some of the other units better... *cough* pathfinders *cough*

They have already done a point change that even helped pathfinders. Free armament and cheaper duck and cover.

I feel pathfinders along with normal commandos squad really sufferers from lack of personell upgrade, now that there exist so many.

2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

They have done plenty of new bases. I think it’s entirely possible. Especially because they are new class of vehicle (hover air in RRG). I’m thinking it’s less unlikely than you’re giving it credit for.

Re: pivot - I thought aside from standard move, you could only do 1 action type? Ie shoot once, aim once, etc. pivot is not a standard move, so wouldn’t you be limited to the rule of doing it once? Just get to do it for free instead of one of two actions.

Well, I think it's more unlikely than you're giving it credit for. I guess we'll see.

A pivot is a move action, so you can do as many of them as you have actions. There's nothing about only Standard moves being free from the restriction against doing the same action more than once per activation. It's all move actions.

8 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I have had fun with the AT-ST. I haven’t gotten my t47 out on the board yet.

I enjoy the look of the landspeeder, but I certainly agree it doesn’t look great gameplay wise.

The CW tanks look amazing. I’d be terrified of messing up that paint job though... going to look really really good or really really bad. Either way, they look like they completely outclass the GCW heavies, and that gives me some concern.

They have done plenty of new bases. I think it’s entirely possible. Especially because they are new class of vehicle (hover air in RRG). I’m thinking it’s less unlikely than you’re giving it credit for.

Re: pivot - I thought aside from standard move, you could only do 1 action type? Ie shoot once, aim once, etc. pivot is not a standard move, so wouldn’t you be limited to the rule of doing it once? Just get to do it for free instead of one of two actions.

Pathfinders weapon is free now. That’s still not enough? (I do not have them nor do my friends in the play group so statement is untested).

Just to confirm about pivot

Under movement in the RRG

The primary way that units move is by performing a move action. When a unit performs a move action, it performs a standard move, reverse, pivot, climb, clamber, embark, or disembark.REG

So a pivot is a standard move action and can be done more than once per activation.

As for pathfinders as good as they are you don't see them in many winning tournament lists. This could be down to a number of things, they could be competitive , but no-one has learned how to play them yet (unlikely) , it could be that they don't do well as the previous metas , for example they might not have done well against shores and or Tauntauns lists, in which case the new rules could help them to blossom, or it could be their natural prey.isn't popular (for example they could have been excellent against snipers , however snipers were the opposition to snipers and now Tauntauns are nerfe d perhaps a spot exists ( anyone who knows the game will realise that none of the above is actually likely to be true)

The simple matter is that for rebel pathfinders are a less efficient choice in that slot than sniper strike teams, and for their cost it's better to get other options like naked rebel.troopers.

1 hour ago, syrath said:

Just to confirm about pivot

Under movement in the RRG

The primary way that units move is by performing a move action. When a unit performs a move action, it performs a standard move, reverse, pivot, climb, clamber, embark, or disembark.REG

So a pivot is a standard move action and can be done more than once per activation.

As for pathfinders as good as they are you don't see them in many winning tournament lists. This could be down to a number of things, they could be competitive , but no-one has learned how to play them yet (unlikely) , it could be that they don't do well as the previous metas , for example they might not have done well against shores and or Tauntauns lists, in which case the new rules could help them to blossom, or it could be their natural prey.isn't popular (for example they could have been excellent against snipers , however snipers were the opposition to snipers and now Tauntauns are nerfe d perhaps a spot exists ( anyone who knows the game will realise that none of the above is actually likely to be true)

The simple matter is that for rebel pathfinders are a less efficient choice in that slot than sniper strike teams, and for their cost it's better to get other options like naked rebel.troopers.

I think you mixed up efficiency with cheapness.

The DH-447 comes in at .020 damage per point spent, the basic pathfinder is between .022 and .051 damage per point depending on which weapon you use; that’s a huge increase in efficiency per point. So, if you have filled your corps slots, and you have the spare points to invest, the Pathfinder is the more efficiency return.

I can’t speak to the inability of supposedly capable players to exploit starting on objectives. I mean, if you can’t make that kind of head start work, how do you win any games at all? That’s not a rhetorical question, how do you win normally if you can’t win with a head start? Are there any live-streams of games of players using Pathfinders?

11 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Pathfinders weapon is free now. That’s still not enough? (I do not have them nor do my friends in the play group so statement is untested).

9 hours ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

They’re still not good...

There’s still no reason to take them over taun tauns.

Ya Pathfinders are meh at best? Rebels have so many better units that are better. They are not bad as heavies.

Real interesting to see in this year's point changes to see if they try to make a lot of these units better.

Think they will just go with as long one list is good they won't really change that much.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

I think you mixed up efficiency with cheapness.

The DH-447 comes in at .020 damage per point spent, the basic pathfinder is between .022 and .051 damage per point depending on which weapon you use; that’s a huge increase in efficiency per point. So, if you have filled your corps slots, and you have the spare points to invest, the Pathfinder is the more efficiency return.

I can’t speak to the inability of supposedly capable players to exploit starting on objectives. I mean, if you can’t make that kind of head start work, how do you win any games at all? That’s not a rhetorical question, how do you win normally if you can’t win with a head start? Are there any live-streams of games of players using Pathfinders?

Hey, I like playing with pathfinders, and in not just talking offensive of even defensive efficiency, I'm talking overall efficiency including activation count. If you have seen any of my own army posts you will find I happen to use some of the least taken units (Jyn as commander , pathfinders etc).

If however pathfinders were top tier efficient then some of them would have made top 8 list at smaller tournament by now, and so far I think the most successful I've heard of was a double pathfinder , triple RT, Jyn Erso, 5 rebel trooper, 11 activation list. That went undefeated at a 10 man RPQ. I actually use a similar list,

799/800

Jyn Erso (110 + 9 = 119)
--Strict Orders (5), Duck and Cover (4), A-180 Rifle Config (0)

R2-D2 (35 + 0 = 35)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 8 = 48)
--R5 Astromech Droid (8)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 26 = 66)
--DLT-20A Trooper (26)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 8 = 48)
--R5 Astromech Droid (8)

Rebel Pathfinders (68 + 26 = 94)
--Pao (22), Duck and Cover (4), A-300 Long Range Config (0)

Rebel Pathfinders (68 + 48 = 116)
--Bistan (32), Offensive Push (4), HQ Uplink (10), Recon Intel (2), A-300 Long Range Config (0)

Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (20 + 28 = 48)
--DH-447 Sniper (28)

AT-RT (55 + 20 = 75)
--AT-RT Rotary Blaster (20)

AT-RT (55 + 20 = 75)
--AT-RT Rotary Blaster (20)

AT-RT (55 + 20 = 75)
--AT-RT Rotary Blaster (20)

However I plan on using Cassian when released which will change my list a bit. I do okay locally. Where pathfinders win IMO is on action economy it's hard to lose both actions even if one had to be a move. They can also save on actions by deploying close to where you want to be. In fact the reason I don't have duck and cover on Bistan is that I love to deploy, recon, activating offensive push so that he starts with an Aim, take a shot on Armor (or droids) with 14 white 1 black, impact 1 Ion 1with an aim. Then recover turn on the second action, then have R2 smoke screen turn 2 to get a second Ion on the Armor and possibly a second turn 4 red 4 white 1 black pool on turn 2, although again if it's Armor I'll use the range 3 wespon to the increased crit chance. This can really hamper an Armor users game by messing with their action economy, and sometimes shutting them down to anything but free actions for a turn (if you can go late. Go early)

15 hours ago, jocke01 said:

They have already done a point change that even helped pathfinders. Free armament and cheaper duck and cover.

I feel pathfinders along with normal commandos squad really sufferers from lack of personell upgrade, now that there exist so many.

They still just die to easy for dudes that cost 17 points. When shores open up on them they still die. And they only have 1 heavy weapon that’s even remotely worth taking, and he’s a character of corse (maybe they’ll get Chirrut and Baze some day). I think red defense dice are too undervalued, especially with aggressive tactics now (which is all but useless to rebels), or white dice are too overvalued. They need to be about 14 points, and have better heavy weapons, if they don’t want to change points. Giving them more than a single white dice at range 4 might help also. When you compare them to death troopers they’re woefully disappointing. The rebels just have the short end of the stick overall. It’s not huge, but it’s definitely an uphill battle. Unless you take 3 tauns 😎

6 hours ago, syrath said:

Hey, I like playing with pathfinders, and in not just talking offensive of even defensive efficiency, I'm talking overall efficiency including activation count. If you have seen any of my own army posts you will find I happen to use some of the least taken units (Jyn as commander , pathfinders etc).

If however pathfinders were top tier efficient then some of them would have made top 8 list at smaller tournament by now, and so far I think the most successful I've heard of was a double pathfinder , triple RT, Jyn Erso, 5 rebel trooper, 11 activation list. That went undefeated at a 10 man RPQ. I actually use a similar list,

799/800

Jyn Erso (110 + 9 = 119)
--Strict Orders (5), Duck and Cover (4), A-180 Rifle Config (0)

R2-D2 (35 + 0 = 35)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 8 = 48)
--R5 Astromech Droid (8)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 26 = 66)
--DLT-20A Trooper (26)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 8 = 48)
--R5 Astromech Droid (8)

Rebel Pathfinders (68 + 26 = 94)
--Pao (22), Duck and Cover (4), A-300 Long Range Config (0)

Rebel Pathfinders (68 + 48 = 116)
--Bistan (32), Offensive Push (4), HQ Uplink (10), Recon Intel (2), A-300 Long Range Config (0)

Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (20 + 28 = 48)
--DH-447 Sniper (28)

AT-RT (55 + 20 = 75)
--AT-RT Rotary Blaster (20)

AT-RT (55 + 20 = 75)
--AT-RT Rotary Blaster (20)

AT-RT (55 + 20 = 75)
--AT-RT Rotary Blaster (20)

However I plan on using Cassian when released which will change my list a bit. I do okay locally. Where pathfinders win IMO is on action economy it's hard to lose both actions even if one had to be a move. They can also save on actions by deploying close to where you want to be. In fact the reason I don't have duck and cover on Bistan is that I love to deploy, recon, activating offensive push so that he starts with an Aim, take a shot on Armor (or droids) with 14 white 1 black, impact 1 Ion 1with an aim. Then recover turn on the second action, then have R2 smoke screen turn 2 to get a second Ion on the Armor and possibly a second turn 4 red 4 white 1 black pool on turn 2, although again if it's Armor I'll use the range 3 wespon to the increased crit chance. This can really hamper an Armor users game by messing with their action economy, and sometimes shutting them down to anything but free actions for a turn (if you can go late. Go early)

I just don’t see the 2 pathfinders units being better than 2 units of Tauns. You obviously can’t take 3 RTs and Tauns, but then you can take more regular rebels and/or snipers. If not, I think you’re crazy not to take 3po with Jyn/pathfinders. Calculate odds on the turn she gains teamwork seems crazy good to me. Calculate odds on any unit with duck and cover is really good.

I think you can also distract with 3po, while keeping r2 out of LOS, and if 3po dies, have one of your astromechs bring him back later in the turn.

56 minutes ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

I just don’t see the 2 pathfinders units being better than 2 units of Tauns. You obviously can’t take 3 RTs and Tauns, but then you can take more regular rebels and/or snipers. If not, I think you’re crazy not to take 3po with Jyn/pathfinders. Calculate odds on the turn she gains teamwork seems crazy good to me. Calculate odds on any unit with duck and cover is really good.

I'm with you on the 3po and I'd drop the dlt for him. As for the pathfinders dying the same as other units. , that isn't my experience with them, however I totally agree that the red defense dice is undervalued.

Edit here is how I'd do it with Cassian and Tauntauns

Jyn Erso (110 + 9 = 119)
--Strict Orders (5), Duck and Cover (4), A-180 Rifle Config (0)

Cassian Andor (90 + 21 = 111)
--Offensive Push (4), Duck and Cover (4), Grappling Hooks (3), A280-CFE Sniper Config (10)

R2-D2 (35 + 20 = 55)
--Comms Relay (5), C-3PO (15)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (20 + 28 = 48)
--DH-447 Sniper (28)

Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (20 + 28 = 48)
--DH-447 Sniper (28)

Tauntaun Riders (90 + 14 = 104)
--Tenacity (4), HQ Uplink (10)

Tauntaun Riders (90 + 4 = 94)
--Tenacity (4)

Tauntaun Riders (90 + 9 = 99)
--Tenacity (4), Comms Jammer (5)

however if I wanted efficiency I'd drop Jyn for Leia

1 hour ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

They still just die to easy for dudes that cost 17 points. When shores open up on them they still die. And they only have 1 heavy weapon that’s even remotely worth taking, and he’s a character of corse (maybe they’ll get Chirrut and Baze some day). I think red defense dice are too undervalued, especially with aggressive tactics now (which is all but useless to rebels), or white dice are too overvalued. They need to be about 14 points, and have better heavy weapons, if they don’t want to change points. Giving them more than a single white dice at range 4 might help also. When you compare them to death troopers they’re woefully disappointing. The rebels just have the short end of the stick overall. It’s not huge, but it’s definitely an uphill battle. Unless you take 3 tauns 😎

I agree that they can die way to easy. However with infiltrate and danger sense + duck and cover they can sit on a objective and tank damage. Or they just die in 1 attack when u blank.

They are a nice unit, but they could use a boost in something. Pao's gun could have had pierce. They could have had uncanny luck 1-2 or something.

In my experience they can be very solid. However I have lost them turn 1 in one attack while in heavy cover.

1 hour ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

I think you can also distract with 3po, while keeping r2 out of LOS, and if 3po dies, have one of your astromechs bring him back later in the turn.

Actually 3po has to die first no matter LOS even if 3po is hidden. A counterpart card is always destroyed first.

1 hour ago, syrath said:

I'm with you on the 3po and I'd drop the dlt for him. As for the pathfinders dying the same as other units. , that isn't my experience with them, however I totally agree that the red defense dice is undervalued.

Edit here is how I'd do it with Cassian and Tauntauns

Jyn Erso (110 + 9 = 119)
--Strict Orders (5), Duck and Cover (4), A-180 Rifle Config (0)

Cassian Andor (90 + 21 = 111)
--Offensive Push (4), Duck and Cover (4), Grappling Hooks (3), A280-CFE Sniper Config (10)

R2-D2 (35 + 20 = 55)
--Comms Relay (5), C-3PO (15)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (20 + 28 = 48)
--DH-447 Sniper (28)

Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (20 + 28 = 48)
--DH-447 Sniper (28)

Tauntaun Riders (90 + 14 = 104)
--Tenacity (4), HQ Uplink (10)

Tauntaun Riders (90 + 4 = 94)
--Tenacity (4)

Tauntaun Riders (90 + 9 = 99)
--Tenacity (4), Comms Jammer (5)

however if I wanted efficiency I'd drop Jyn for Leia

But what if K2 is too good to pass up!?!? 😂

Tauntaun loss of 2x dodge after double move sucks. They clarified that...bummer.

55 minutes ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

But what if K2 is too good to pass up!?!? 😂

Then drop a taun, which might free up an uplink

44 minutes ago, Deadshane said:

Tauntaun loss of 2x dodge after double move sucks. They clarified that...bummer.

They did? Where? When?

1 hour ago, Deadshane said:

Tauntaun loss of 2x dodge after double move sucks. They clarified that...bummer.

Where? Nothing has changed, they still have 2 dodges after a double move.

4 hours ago, syrath said:

I'm with you on the 3po and I'd drop the dlt for him. As for the pathfinders dying the same as other units. , that isn't my experience with them, however I totally agree that the red defense dice is undervalued.

Edit here is how I'd do it with Cassian and Tauntauns

Jyn Erso (110 + 9 = 119)
--Strict Orders (5), Duck and Cover (4), A-180 Rifle Config (0)

Cassian Andor (90 + 21 = 111)
--Offensive Push (4), Duck and Cover (4), Grappling Hooks (3), A280-CFE Sniper Config (10)

R2-D2 (35 + 20 = 55)
--Comms Relay (5), C-3PO (15)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (20 + 28 = 48)
--DH-447 Sniper (28)

Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (20 + 28 = 48)
--DH-447 Sniper (28)

Tauntaun Riders (90 + 14 = 104)
--Tenacity (4), HQ Uplink (10)

Tauntaun Riders (90 + 4 = 94)
--Tenacity (4)

Tauntaun Riders (90 + 9 = 99)
--Tenacity (4), Comms Jammer (5)

however if I wanted efficiency I'd drop Jyn for Leia

The big problem with using Tauntauns instead being that creature troopers can’t do the missions that Pathfinders can, and don’t start on the objectives. The strike teams are very unlikely to get committed to an objective and successfully contest it.

2 hours ago, Deadshane said:

Tauntaun loss of 2x dodge after double move sucks. They clarified that...bummer.

"Clarified" what, and where? You still get 2 Dodge tokens for moving twice.

.

On 2/22/2020 at 8:11 PM, Derrault said:

Are there any live-streams of games of players using Pathfinders?

Not really, I think I saw one when they first came out, the player chose to put them alone in the open in front of a stromtrooper unit. They didn't last long...

On 2/21/2020 at 10:40 AM, Caimheul1313 said:

Sorry for double post, but I had a question about my reading of Beam.

So lets say there are three enemy units lined up from right to left, and I choose to attack with Sabre tank, targeting the leftmost unit with the Beam weapon and the center unit with the main weapon. Now, as far as I'm aware the initial attack pools are resolved in the order of the active players choosing, correct? So after resolving the attack with the main gun, I now resolve the attack with the Beam weapon. After resolving the Beam weapon's initial attack, I target the unit in the center with one of the generated "extra attacks." Does this lead to two suppression on the center unit, or should the additional attack been resolved as part of the same dice pool as the main weapon?

After re-reading the entry for Attack in the RRG, it appears that you would assign all the dice at the same time and only perform a single roll against a single unit. I think the way that most people resolve attacks, most likely based on the number of available dice, isn't the correct order of operations per the RRG.

To clarify, the 3rd bullet under step 3 Declare Additional Defender states

Quote

The dice in each attack pool should be placed near the corresponding defender.

then step 4 is Roll Attack Dice

Just now, NeonWolf said:

After re-reading the entry for Attack in the RRG, it appears that you would assign all the dice at the same time and only perform a single roll against a single unit. I think the way that most people resolve attacks, most likely based on the number of available dice, isn't the correct order of operations per the RRG.

To clarify, the 3rd bullet under step 3 Declare Additional Defender states

then step 4 is Roll Attack Dice

Yes, but reading Beam:

Quote

After a unit performs an attack with a weapon that has the beam x keyword, it may perform x additional attacks using only the beam x weapon.

So only the initial attack dice pool exists when the Beam weapon targets the other unit at the same time as the main gun. Only after both of those attack pools are resolved is that "attack" done, therefore at that point Beam would allow you to perform an additional attack. It's not forming the additional attack pools at the same time. Declare Additional Defenders handles attacking with different weapons (through Arsenal or having multiple miniatures with different weapons). So this would be more akin to Barrage allowing for multiple attack actions.

7 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Yes, but reading Beam:

So only the initial attack dice pool exists when the Beam weapon targets the other unit at the same time as the main gun. Only after both of those attack pools are resolved is that "attack" done, therefore at that point Beam would allow you to perform an additional attack. It's not forming the additional attack pools at the same time. Declare Additional Defenders handles attacking with different weapons (through Arsenal or having multiple miniatures with different weapons). So this would be more akin to Barrage allowing for multiple attack actions.

This may need some clarification on the Rules forum. Had a similar issue over the weekend at a Prime with the interaction between Trained in Your Jedi Arts and Inconspicuous R2. Inconspicuous reads "While a unit with the Inconspicuous keyword has at least one suppression token, when an enemy unit performs an attack, it must target another unit if able" and here is an image of the command card:

The situation was that both R2 and a BARC speeder were at range 1 of Grievous and R2 had a suppression token. There is no clear answer on if TIYJA ignores Inconspicuous and is able to attack R2 or if he must attack the BARC speeder twice, or can only attack the BARC speeder once.

@NeonWolf New keywords/command cards/upgrades needing further clarification on intent after widespread release isn't really anything new for Legion, or many other miniatures games honestly.

The "May" clause on Trained in Your Jedi Arts in addition to "an attack" might be intended to handle such a situation, since he doesn't have to attack R2 (which is good since arguably he can't), and since it specifies "an attack" the BARC can only be attacked once. That's my read on it at least, which could be completely wrong.