23 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Yeah I am of the lets see if they fall into the same traps the sequels fell into. Be sad if they did. would be great if they learned their lesson and actually gave use great characters instead of 2 dimensional cut outs.

As always, mileage varies. From my perspective, the characters didn’t revolve into caricatures until the final installment. You didn’t. It happens.

Given the established body of work - even limited just to Star Wars - of the writers involved, I’m inclined to give them more than a little benefit of the doubt.

Okay, let's try not to completely derail this thread please? Especially not devolving into the mudslinging that always seems to accompany the Sequel Trilogy/High Republic?

It would be appreciated if you guys could stop this cold turkey so that it doesn't spiral out of control as it has done on many an occasion.

3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Okay, let's try not to completely derail this thread please? Especially not devolving into the mudslinging that always seems to accompany the Sequel Trilogy/High Republic?

It would be appreciated if you guys could stop this cold turkey so that it doesn't spiral out of control as it has done on many an occasion.

Fair enough. Even trying to acknowledge that different people have different tastes, as I’ve tried here, doesn’t usually work. 😢

Just now, Nytwyng said:

Fair enough. Even trying to acknowledge that different people have different tastes, as I’ve tried here, doesn’t usually work. 😢

You've been pretty much fine, but others are more combative about the topic.

7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

You've been pretty much fine, but others are more combative about the topic.

I’ll try to be more unreasonable next time. Promise. 😏

11 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

As always, mileage varies. From my perspective, the characters didn’t revolve into caricatures until the final installment. You didn’t. It happens.

Given the established body of work - even limited just to Star Wars - of the writers involved, I’m inclined to give them more than a little benefit of the doubt.

To be fair I found all character in A Force Awakens to be interesting Characters that had a lot of their potential not used in the Last Jedi and then a massive rush job in the Rise of Skywalker. Which is what makes the Last Jedi infuriating.

That'll be a no from Daeglan then. 😛

I really enjoyed the latest episode, although it wasn’t without its problems.

P-47 makes some interesting points about Anakin’s fake surrender. I find that specific element of the scene troublesome for a number of reasons, most of which have already been covered here. What I did like about that scene was the pure arrogance displayed by Anakin and the bold way he embraced the force. Refusing to take cover and walking into the firefight knowing he could evade or deflect all of the blaster bolts, then snatching the tactical droid and slicing him in half mid air shows a level of power that should make any Jedi observing grow very concerned. This is something that I felt has always is missing from characterizations of Anakin, the idea that he feels that the force is power and he isn’t going to leave any of that power underutilized. He’s not the whiny man-child from the feature films, but a bold competent force user who places himself above convention and right/wrong.

However this makes the “Oh Ani! Aw shucks.” Attitude that Obi-wan, Padmé and others all the more problematic. While the Clone Wars really drives home the hubris that the Jedi and Republic have come to embrace this lack of reaction strains credulity from my perspective.

Another issue is truly a nitpick and I only mention it because it speaks to a potentially big issue for Star Wars in general, and that is Ahsoka’s use of the codename Fulcrum. My issue is that the writers were willing to subvert canon for such a nothing little bit of fan-service. First Obi-wan and Anakin assume it’s Saw Guerrera as if its a code name we’ve heard him use before. More importantly though is that Ahsoka creates that codename in the Ahsoka novel, which Disney has told us is canon. Ahsoka take on the mantle of Fulcrum at the end of the novel because the name embodies her attempt to tip the scales of power towards the rebellion and it marks her allegiance to the rebellion. It was a BIG moment in the novel, now gutted because Fulcrum is now just a codename people have always used.

The novel was nothing great, but this was a fun nod to rebels and created a bit of legacy for the Fulcrum name. The use of it in Clone Wars was a bit of a throw-away and like I said my dislike of its use is a nitpick, but it makes me wonder; if the writers are so willing to usurp recently established canon for frivolous reasons it won’t take long for things to get messy to the point of absurdity.

I know many would claim that with the ST things have already gotten to that point... maybe they’re right. If their philosophy is that we’re going to only ever focus on the story in front of us and the devil with what has come before, well I feel that’s lazy and shows a lack of creativity.

Otherwise lots of great action in the episode and it was fun to watch. I’m hopeful they’ll deliver something really special to end the series.

The episode doesn't contradict the novel, though. She looks at Alderaan and its position in the galaxy's political landscape and decides on the name Fulcrum. There's nothing there indicating definitely that this is a brand-new name, only that in the moment she was reminded of the term.

The episode adds further context to her deciding to use that name (again), it doesn't contradict the scene in the book.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

The episode doesn't contradict the novel, though. She looks at Alderaan and its position in the galaxy's political landscape and decides on the name Fulcrum. There's nothing there indicating definitely that this is a brand-new name, only that in the moment she was reminded of the term.

The episode adds further context to her deciding to use that name (again), it doesn't contradict the scene in the book.

You’re right. It doesn’t contradict it, but I feel it robs it of its gravitas. Just like how much of the ST doesn’t contradict the OT but really diminishes the impact of its major events.

I get the impression the Filoni or other power-that-be feel they wasted good story elements in the Ahsoka novel and so they are rehashing them here. Who know maybe these scripts drive the novel because they never thought they’d get to tell them in Clone Wars.
Either way it’s strikes me as lazy writing and is not a practice that I feel bodes well for the stories to come.

5 minutes ago, Hutchback said:

You’re right. It doesn’t contradict it, but I feel it robs it of its gravitas. Just like how much of the ST doesn’t contradict the OT but really diminishes the impact of its major events.

I get the impression the Filoni or other power-that-be feel they wasted good story elements in the Ahsoka novel and so they are rehashing them here. Who know maybe these scripts drive the novel because they never thought they’d get to tell them in Clone Wars.
Either way it’s strikes me as lazy writing and is not a practice that I feel bodes well for the stories to come.

I think it’s far simpler than “lazy writing” or “wasted in the novel” or anything else. I think it’s simply a matter of Filoni and company taking the opportunity to make small callouts and connections to Rebels that wouldn’t/couldn’t have existed in the initial version of this final arc because Rebels wasn’t a thing then.

What is that even supposed to mean, "lazy writing". As if they just throw together episodes without a care.

And how does the episode usurp canon when it doesn't contradict it, as you admit, but instead adds further context to her decision in the novel?

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

What is that even supposed to mean, "lazy writing". As if they just throw together episodes without a care.

Lazy writing is what non-writers think happens when they don’t get the results they like.

9 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I think it’s far simpler than “lazy writing” or “wasted in the novel” or anything else. I think it’s simply a matter of Filoni and company taking the opportunity to make small callouts and connections to Rebels that wouldn’t/couldn’t have existed in the initial version of this final arc because Rebels wasn’t a thing then.

Good point, but I find that those connections can become problematic, and that IMO the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

10 minutes ago, Hutchback said:

Good point, but I find that those connections can become problematic, and that IMO the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

Mileage varies.

Briefly seeing a holographic young Caleb Dume next to Depa Bilaba harms nothing. Hearing the code name “Fulcrum” in this context harms nothing. While it could be said that someone coming in after the fact and watching the movies and tv series for the first time in chronological order would “spoil” the reveal of Fulcrum’s identity in Rebels, the same could be said of Empire’s Vader reveal.

Frankly, I’ve seen people more forgiving of an element that actually does contradict the novel - the color of Ahsoka’s lightsaber blades - than some seem to be about this simple name drop.

But then, as I myself said, mileage varies.

6 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Lazy writing is what non-writers think happens when they don’t get the results they like.

I think that is an unfair characterization of my rationale. While my professional writing is limited to ad copy, I do have a lot of experience designing and I would liken lazy writing to lazy graphic design. After decades of design work I have already created solutions for most challenges I would encounter. My existing toolbox and library is something that I draw upon often and it’s an efficient way to work. Sometimes, however, it’s just lazy to do so. My clients and the project itself are often better served by me ignoring what I already have and exploring something new. Sometimes “lazy” is totally appropriate... short deadlines... leveraging existing material reinforces both the original and the new... new for the sake of new can often confuse audiences, but other times it weakens the work.

As Nytwyng mentioned they wanted to make a connection, but I felt it was ground they already covered and nothing was gained by its inclusion. Rather a new connection could have provided more of an aha moment, at least for those who read the novel (which to be fair may be a very small group of people).

Again, this was a nitpick! It was mentioned earlier in this thread was there is a perceived need for the Star Wars universe to connect all things. When done well it gives the writing a cohesiveness. I personally don’t think this is one of those times.

I regret even implying the writers don’t care, but sometimes we’re “lazy” for reasons we can’t control. Perhaps it wasn’t even the writers idea, but a producer who felt they were being particularly clever that day. Perhaps they care too much and I am wrong about them falling back on existing material because it creates convenient story points. Perhaps caring too much has caused a lack of perspective, which happens. Remember William Faulkner said “In writing you must kill all your darlings.” Again I did suggest that they may have felt that really good writing was left unread in Ahsoka (I have no idea how popular the novel was, but even bestsellers garner audiences that are insignificant in the world of television) and they cared enough to bring those elements to a broader audience where they can big truly appreciated. Hence, mirroring much of the Larte sisters story into the Martez arc and giving a nod to the Fulcrum codename.

All just my musings, conjecture and opinion, which is ever developing.

27 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Mileage varies.

Briefly seeing a holographic young Caleb Dume next to Depa Bilaba harms nothing. Hearing the code name “Fulcrum” in this context harms nothing. While it could be said that someone coming in after the fact and watching the movies and tv series for the first time in chronological order would “spoil” the reveal of Fulcrum’s identity in Rebels, the same could be said of Empire’s Vader reveal.

Frankly, I’ve seen people more forgiving of an element that actually does contradict the novel - the color of Ahsoka’s lightsaber blades - than some seem to be about this simple name drop.

But then, as I myself said, mileage varies.

Mileage varies is absolutely true and my quibble was more something I thought would be fun to discuss (and has 😀 ), but certainly didn’t ruin anything for me.

what was the contradiction with the light sabers? They’re blue in Clone Wars and white in Ahsoka, but we know they’re not the same Sabre’s.

2 minutes ago, Hutchback said:

As Nytwyng mentioned they wanted to make a connection, but I felt it was ground they already covered and nothing was gained by its inclusion. Rather a new connection could have provided more of an aha moment, at least for those who read the novel (which to be fair may be a very small group of people).

And that, for better or for worse, is the nature of the beast. The movies have a larger audience than the tv series, which have a larger audience than the novels, which (likely) have a larger audience than the YA novels (of which Ahsoka was one), which have a larger audience than the comics, and so on.

It’s the same reason Coulson (in particular) and the cast of Agents of SHIELD haven't appeared on the big screen. The larger audience last saw Coulson when he was killed. Including him would require slowing a movie’s story to a halt to explain the better part of a tv season’s story (and now, to explain that it’s not Coulson but an LMD, since he really did die at the end of season 5) for that larger audience, or having the larger audience assume the filmmakers screwed up and forgot Coulson died. So, Clone Wars didn’t contradict the novel with the smaller audience, but it does - for better or worse - require viewing the scene from the book in a slightly different light.

Just now, Hutchback said:

Mileage varies is absolutely true and my quibble was more something I thought would be fun to discuss (and has 😀 ), but certainly didn’t ruin anything for me.

what was the contradiction with the light sabers? They’re blue in Clone Wars and white in Ahsoka, but we know they’re not the same Sabre’s.

The flashbacks to the Siege of Mandalore in the book specifically referred to her green blades.

7 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The flashbacks to the Siege of Mandalore in the book specifically referred to her green blades.

Ah, I missed that detail. Well there’s still a few episodes to fix it 😀

18 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The flashbacks to the Siege of Mandalore in the book specifically referred to her green blades.

Anakin says they’re better! 😛

Her lightsabers are blue on the cover of the Ahsoka novel. I guess it contradicts itself.

11 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Her lightsabers are blue on the cover of the Ahsoka novel. I guess it contradicts itself.

Aren't they white? If so, the confusion is understandable since they're against a blue background.

6 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Aren't they white? If so, the confusion is understandable since they're against a blue background.

There a bluish white not as white as the title text. Maybe it’s the background.

*There thinner in Rebels so maybe that’s why I thought they where the original blades.

3 minutes ago, Eoen said:

There a bluish white not as white as the title text. Maybe it’s the background.

Looks like it’s just the background. The text of the book refers to green blades in the flashbacks and white after she builds her new ones, in line with what we saw on Rebels.