6 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

So let’s go over it. It has surge to defense, one more black die and Impact 1 on the native ranged attack and gets scout 1, but loses native surge to crit all for 10 extra points. So the melee attack, rotary, flamer and Laser Cannon are all worse than the original, but that’s ok, cause we have critical 1 on the native ranged attack.

They already stated that they didn't want surge to crit due to fire support as they felt it'd break the game. I kind of agree on that. As for what's actually worse RT to RT: the flamethrower is the same. It doesn't care about cover and no one takes dodges to begin with. The Laser Cannon rarely paid out damage against heavy cover and it's performance against most armor hasn't changed. The Rotary gun has admittedly gotten worse, but they were rare to run one anyway.

11 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

In the current meta getting surge to defense will not save this unit from a one shot. I think it’s interesting that the original RT was given a 10 point reduction and before that never saw table time. This version trades attack value for a slight defensive increase.

Context is important with why the original didn't see much use and it boils down to DLTs and lack of ability to score points. The stock RT, even before they dropped weapon costs, was never bad. Also with the effectively doubled defense it helps a lot more than you're giving credit.

Elite, no. We knew this would basically be a reskin and it's got a slightly better coat of paint than the original.

You also have to think of the faction it is in. Unlike with the Rebels, its a fairly solid Fire Support platform also giving the clones surge to hit. Surge to crit when the clones can fire support it.

Plus surge to crit is hardly that vital to make the offense "far worse". Scout 1 helps flamethrower quite a bit. When using flamethrower Crit vs Hit won't matter very often. Only dodge token applies as flamethrower already beats cover. Laser canon it is a bit of a loss sure. Scout 1 helps it move up and the boost to dodge is nice, but at same time you typically use that for impact or range 4 fire and the scout probably won't matter much for a range 4 weapon and more crit is more armor beating. Rotary helps it get up closer quicker and again fire support.

However with its base weapon actually being worth using, it servers as a fairly solid cheap fire support platform for the Republic. They even called out the offense as being Rebels tweaking and juicing up (ala the landspeeder) but albeit with less professional training (Scout, Fire Support aiding it far more often, dodge, etc)

Scout Troopers need a buff. Both Imp and Reb Commandos are underperforming. But while I sometimes see a full Rebel Commando on the field as a kind of upgraded Rebel Trooper unit, I haven't fielded or played against a full Scout Troop in a standard game once. The Empire just has way better alternatives for their SF slot.

In skirmish games they can be a viable option, though...

AtRt may not be elite, but it is another durable, cheap activation in an army that has a low activation count. 2 of these is 130 and gives you impact (rare keyword in the army)

1 hour ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Elite, no. We knew this would basically be a reskin and it's got a slightly better coat of paint than the original.

No we didn’t. Unless you’re saying you had advanced knowledge.

Really they should have had red defense dice and everything could have been the same as is presented. It would mean it’s 2 grades better defensively, but not quite as good offensively. Or even give it token share ability. Anything would be better than what we got.

You guys really seam ready to settle for anything. Honestly with the units they have been pumping out, it isn’t too much to expect more.

17 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

No we didn’t. Unless you’re saying you had advanced knowledge.

Really they should have had red defense dice and everything could have been the same as is presented. It would mean it’s 2 grades better defensively, but not quite as good offensively. Or even give it token share ability. Anything would be better than what we got.

You guys really seam ready to settle for anything. Honestly with the units they have been pumping out, it isn’t too much to expect more.

Red dice with hard armor on a support unit with 6 HP is asking far too much. It was absurd when it was first brought up and it still is now. You basically want the defense of an Occupier with no weak spots for almost a third of the cost, that can also take a flamethrower. That would be broken, full stop.

As for token sharing, no other Republic vehicle can naturally do that. The TX-130 can only take tokens and it needs a pilot for that so why should the RT be different?

As it currently stands I'd expect to see more RTs than BARCS as they're a more durable platform for fire support that grants surge to hit.

59 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Red dice with hard armor on a support unit with 6 HP is asking far too much. It was absurd when it was first brought up and it still is now. You basically want the defense of an Occupier with no weak spots for almost a third of the cost, that can also take a flamethrower. That would be broken, full stop.

As for token sharing, no other Republic vehicle can naturally do that. The TX-130 can only take tokens and it needs a pilot for that so why should the RT be different?

As it currently stands I'd expect to see more RTs than BARCS as they're a more durable platform for fire support that grants surge to hit.

We’ll see how the RT does in the Republic faction. This “new” iteration is at best a lateral move power wise, for 10 points more. In the Rebel faction, those 10 points was the difference between playable/not playable. Perhaps the Republic is points starved enough to take said garbage, but I think a lack of performance will spell its doom. It’s also notable that you can take a 5 man P1 unit for the same price.

But as I said, we’ll see as time will tell.

5 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

The Republic faction was billed a the Elite faction. What part of this unit cries Elite to you?

Keep in mind: The devs stated that they held back on Surge: Crit because of the absurd fire support potential it would cause.

For ten extra points, I feel like it adds up. Add a crap ton of dice from the nearby clones and you more than make up for the Rebels' firepower. TBH it will be a target asking for aggro anyway, so the surge to block seems more useful than surge to crit anyway.

Weren't we just saying Clones need some more units that aren't crazy expensive? I feel like the price point slots in nicely... but I'm a noob so what do I know?

7 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

You guys really seam ready to settle for anything. Honestly with the units they have been pumping out, it isn’t too much to expect more.

That's the problem, we expect powercreep, and we should not.

I'm glad they made the ATRT what an ATRT is in the game and not a different, better one. You got something better defensively and with Scout, that doesn't need to take a Hardpoint because the pilot is a trained soldier with better firepower, and you are paying 10 more points. It feels fitting and good enough, on par with the Rebel one.

I understand that maybe competitively is not the best, but IMO is the best for the game.

1 hour ago, oaicart said:

That's the problem, we expect powercreep, and we should not.

I'm glad they made the ATRT what an ATRT is in the game and not a different, better one. You got something better defensively and with Scout, that doesn't need to take a Hardpoint because the pilot is a trained soldier with better firepower, and you are paying 10 more points. It feels fitting and good enough, on par with the Rebel one.

I understand that maybe competitively is not the best, but IMO is the best for the game.

Unfortunately they don’t keep to these same rules for all their creations. That’s why we have threads like this one. And it’s ludicrous how uneven they are when they decide which faction they will give powerful units to.

9 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

And it’s ludicrous how uneven they are when they decide which faction they will give powerful units to

Ahhh, there we have the real reason: The grass is always greener on the other side... 😜

43 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Unfortunately they don’t keep to these same rules for all their creations. That’s why we have threads like this one. And it’s ludicrous how uneven they are when they decide which faction they will give powerful units to.

Then, you should celebrate that they are totally fair with the Republic ATRT, following almost the same scheme that with the Rebel one. It's a step in the right direction for having a healthy game.

Republic and CIS are new factions, patience is needed until they have more options. I only play Rebels and we have the higher number of "bad" units in the game for sure! But I play Han and Wookiees, so what do I know.

12 hours ago, Staelwulf said:

Scout Troopers need a buff. Both Imp and Reb Commandos are underperforming. But while I sometimes see a full Rebel Commando on the field as a kind of upgraded Rebel Trooper unit, I haven't fielded or played against a full Scout Troop in a standard game once. The Empire just has way better alternatives for their SF slot.

In skirmish games they can be a viable option, though...

With how easy it is to get critical now, Wouldn't Rebel vets just be a better option compared to a full Commando squad?

9 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

We’ll see how the RT does in the Republic faction. This “new” iteration is at best a lateral move power wise, for 10 points more. In the Rebel faction, those 10 points was the difference between playable/not playable. Perhaps the Republic is points starved enough to take said garbage, but I think a lack of performance will spell its doom. It’s also notable that you can take a 5 man P1 unit for the same price.

But as I said, we’ll see as time will tell.

The Republic RT is an awesome platform for initiating Fire Support. Before this, the only unit with surge: hit with range greater than 2 was the BARC, and pretty much everyone agrees that the BARC is not very good. The Republic RT is also way more viable naked than its Rebel counterpart, especially if you just want it to initiate Fire Support.

15 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Honestly I think the new RTs are over costed too. Without a surge to crit, it’s not as good, yet it costs the same. So somehow it’s melee attack is worse for being a brand new unit.

And the Republic faction was billed as an elite faction. There is no way that RT is elite anything... ok, I guess it’s elite garbage. 😳

it has a surge on defense. Its defense die are 33% more effective than the rebel version. It also has scout 1 and a significantly better driver weapon. Well worth 10 points.

18 minutes ago, Tirion said:

it has a surge on defense. Its defense die are 33% more effective than the rebel version. It also has scout 1 and a significantly better driver weapon. Well worth 10 points.

Yeah, but @JediPartisan still holds the belief (which is absurd to me) that ATRT can get one-shot. That's just not statistically feasible, especially when these guys surge defensively now.

2 hours ago, Mokoshkana said:

Yeah, but @JediPartisan still holds the belief (which is absurd to me) that ATRT can get one-shot. That's just not statistically feasible, especially when these guys surge defensively now.

Yeah, assuming it's defending against 6 Crits (which very few units can even come close to reliably producing, though some can), the republic RT has about a 91% chance to block at least one, and will block two on average.

11 hours ago, Tirion said:

it has a surge on defense. Its defense die are 33% more effective than the rebel version. It also has scout 1 and a significantly better driver weapon. Well worth 10 points.

Your math is wrong 😉 . It has a 100% more efficient defense die than the reb version since the chance to roll a block has doubled. The overall chance to roll a block is 33%. Its effective health is 9,1 compared to 7,15 on the rebels. That is close to a 27% increase in effective health. 🤓

On 3/27/2020 at 2:50 PM, TallGiraffe said:

With how easy it is to get critical now, Wouldn't Rebel vets just be a better option compared to a full Commando squad?

Indeed. I think that Low Profile and Sharpshooter and Scout 2 and Courage 2 are worth the 3 points of increased cost per mini.. But Reb Vets fulfill the same role and don't take a SF slot. I just imagined the imperial Scout Troopers with the same keywords but stormtroopers stats. That would be a nice Vanguard unit (and imo WAY more interesting than the current version)

On 3/27/2020 at 7:49 PM, Staelwulf said:

Your math is wrong 😉 . It has a 100% more efficient defense die than the reb version since the chance to roll a block has doubled. The overall chance to roll a block is 33%. Its effective health is 9,1 compared to 7,15 on the rebels. That is close to a 27% increase in effective health. 🤓

You're right I had an attack die in my head.... Which is still won't cause that is 50%.... Go me

Losing surge crit on the Clone ATRT really hurts the unit's anti-tank and anti-cover capabilities. I'll have to rely on other units for anti-tank, which really frustrates my list design.

With scout 1, I can see flamer clone ATRT's coming out a lot.

...

But until we see more info on the arc troopers, or get a few other options for the faction, clones are still an underwhelming faction based on unit cost effectiveness alone.

Obi-wan is perhaps the only really 'good for their points' unit in the faction atm.

It's annoying, because to be competitive I need to stick with one of the other factions.

I think a good player can overcome clones on attrition, and a bad one can use activation control advantage, to beat clones too easily. 4+ saves only go so far. Token sharing isn't that great because it forces units to become token caddies. Which means their weapons aren't being used to get kills.

On 3/27/2020 at 7:51 AM, Staelwulf said:

Ahhh, there we have the real reason: The grass is always greener on the other side... 😜

Greener or not my friend, do you really think it’s good for a game to have imbalance?

But as you said, there we have the real reason, you erroneously thought Legion was well balanced. 😜

You should take a look at the competitive scene in Europe. I see both GCW faction in the top 3 in every major championship. Btw. German and European championships were won by rebel lists. I really can't see any evidence there that one faction is better than the other.

Indeed I think that Legion is a pretty well balanced game. That doesn't mean that there aren't a few point tweaks that could be made. But you just flat out call the game imbalanced and in favor of certain factions which is simply not true.

On 3/31/2020 at 7:36 PM, Staelwulf said:

You should take a look at the competitive scene in Europe. I see both GCW faction in the top 3 in every major championship. Btw. German and European championships were won by rebel lists. I really can't see any evidence there that one faction is better than the other.

Indeed I think that Legion is a pretty well balanced game. That doesn't mean that there aren't a few point tweaks that could be made. But you just flat out call the game imbalanced and in favor of certain factions which is simply not true.

I totally agree if you go faction by faction we have pretty good balance at the top end of lists. However this thread isn't a which faction sucks thread, it is which individual units out of each faction fail to measure up, either to design choices that didn't work out, power creep, just flat out better units, etc.

I think most units are pretty close to where they should be. There are some upgrades that are mis-pointed and the rebel vehicles still feel like a mess.

I have not had the same experience with Tauntauns as the rest of the world, but I've only used them after the "fix" to creature trooper melee. The Dewback has always needed a reduction imo.