This is just my opinion but I think the 1st four corps troopers could use a little attention (Rebel, Fleet, Storm, and Snow). But I DO NOT think the unit should be discounted. Instead I think the fifth trooper should be half the price. This way the unit is stronger with an additional health and attack die at a discount. If you lower the price of units I am afraid we will just keep seeing more activation spam and less people finishing 6 rounds of play.

But I also think an activation tax could help with too many activation. A player would pay 3 points for every activation over the required 4 (1 commander, 3 corps). A player with 9 activation would have (9-4)x 3=15 points in activation tax. A player with 13 activation would have (13-4)x 3= 27 points in activation tax.

Again just an idea.

1 hour ago, Portage said:

This is just my opinion but I think the 1st four corps troopers could use a little attention (Rebel, Fleet, Storm, and Snow). But I DO NOT think the unit should be discounted. Instead I think the fifth trooper should be half the price. This way the unit is stronger with an additional health and attack die at a discount. If you lower the price of units I am afraid we will just keep seeing more activation spam and less people finishing 6 rounds of play.

But I also think an activation tax could help with too many activation. A player would pay 3 points for every activation over the required 4 (1 commander, 3 corps). A player with 9 activation would have (9-4)x 3=15 points in activation tax. A player with 13 activation would have (13-4)x 3= 27 points in activation tax.

Again just an idea.

Too much math. Just allow blue player to be determined by lowest activations and/or cap activations.

20 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Too much math. Just allow blue player to be determined by lowest activations and/or cap activations.

I've been advocating for Blue to be lowest activation for ages. I don't want to sound smug but as far as I know I was the first person to mention it on the boards. Let's dew it.

An interesting twist when looking at whether a unit is overcosted or not is there was always baseline math supporting the original cost. So looking at a unit alone in a vacuum could show that it has great avg damage with a good distribution but then you see range 2 which doesn't necessarily factor into the math but is a critical game component. I think there are factors that a lot of players don't address when they analyze a unit and talk about say average damage: Synergy with your army, Effectiveness in both open and heavy terrain, Average damage adjusted for early game effectiveness, Average damage adjusted for health of the unit and adjusted for points.

The reason I argue Wookie warriors are clearly overcosted, is its direct mirror of the IRG is successfully used even at the highest levels of play. Within its own faction it is the highest cost unit to upgrade with just its heavy weapon at 110 points. Is it worth to potentially lose an activation to take a squad of wookie warriors? It's average damage when adjusted for early turns of not being able to fire or based on points is really low. Finally in a more open battlefield which happens from time to time their keywords are less useful.

20 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Legion was originally designed as a 1,000 point game, and they reduced it to 800 because of a concern over how long a game would take to play.

Alex Davy (the creator) confirmed in an interview.

Do you have a source for that interview? I want to show it to a friend to try and convince him to do 1000 now XD

2 hours ago, Uetur said:

An interesting twist when looking at whether a unit is overcosted or not is there was always baseline math supporting the original cost. So looking at a unit alone in a vacuum could show that it has great avg damage with a good distribution but then you see range 2 which doesn't necessarily factor into the math but is a critical game component. I think there are factors that a lot of players don't address when they analyze a unit and talk about say average damage: Synergy with your army, Effectiveness in both open and heavy terrain, Average damage adjusted for early game effectiveness, Average damage adjusted for health of the unit and adjusted for points.

The reason I argue Wookie warriors are clearly overcosted, is its direct mirror of the IRG is successfully used even at the highest levels of play. Within its own faction it is the highest cost unit to upgrade with just its heavy weapon at 110 points. Is it worth to potentially lose an activation to take a squad of wookie warriors? It's average damage when adjusted for early turns of not being able to fire or based on points is really low. Finally in a more open battlefield which happens from time to time their keywords are less useful.

A Wookiee is 25 points. That's a 3 wound body with courage two that throw 2 black dice with surge and charge, thats practically impossible to suppress... I think that the problem that you point out (that I agree with) is not related to points, but with the problem with Snipers and Activations.

Wookiees don't have a spot now... As you said, why should I pay 110 pts for an SF activation if I can run almost 3 activations (Snipers) for the same cost?

But wouldn't you run into the same issue if each Wookiee was 20 points? I hope this Vital Assets expansion brings more variety to the meta and the type of lists we play this days 🙂 I'm happy with casual skirmishes though, I can play Wookiees there and they are pretty darn effective 😛

1 hour ago, oaicart said:

A Wookiee is 25 points. That's a 3 wound body with courage two that throw 2 black dice with surge and charge, thats practically impossible to suppress... I think that the problem that you point out (that I agree with) is not related to points, but with the problem with Snipers and Activations.

Wookiees don't have a spot now... As you said, why should I pay 110 pts for an SF activation if I can run almost 3 activations (Snipers) for the same cost?

But wouldn't you run into the same issue if each Wookiee was 20 points? I hope this Vital Assets expansion brings more variety to the meta and the type of lists we play this days 🙂 I'm happy with casual skirmishes though, I can play Wookiees there and they are pretty darn effective 😛

20 points for wookies, yea I would take that.

11 hours ago, Rogue Three said:

Ok, but why would I *need* to deploy scouts? The other SF options are more versatile and have other perks that the scouts lack: death troopers are jacks of all trades, royal guards are the melee and guardian specialists. Scout squad? Have terrible defence for imperial standards, shoot the same dice as the guards and only have scout 1 going for them..

I don’t know that you need to deploy any unit. If I had to make the case for Scout Troopers over the other two options:

The advantage that scouts bring over Deathtroopers is advanced placement, persistent cover, and a better damage ratio. They also have unique attack feature options: Sniper/Saboteur

The Scouts shoot more dice than the guards do, get cover while doing it, and they’re cheaper. If you are budget conscious and don’t want to sink all your points into those SF slots, scouts are probably the way to go.

8 hours ago, KryatDragon said:

@Derrault

I think evaluating only the naked offensive side of a unit is really missing the mark on what is over and under costed. It does not evaluate the full price point of a unit. And that is after all what this thread is about.

Sure Scouts have good damage per point output... at Range 2 and under. Which means I get an extra round generally to shoot at them before they can shoot at me, and with their lower defense dice than a typical cheaper Imperial unit, means they are a lot less effective. If your numbers bore out, don't you think you'd see more of them than Shores? Shores are cake with bonus ice cream, they are so good. Range 3 (4 with weapon), generally a free Aim Token, and solid shooting + defense. They are way better than than your raw comparison shows. They are the staple unit now for Empire - and are absolutely worth their points.

Scouts are rarely if ever fielded because they are not worth their points.
And since you don't need them for their Sniper Team (this was the screw up by FFG - sniper squads should have been linked like the light field artillery pieces)... Scouts are over costed and therefore under used.

I just don't think you can adequately evaluate a unit based upon only its offensive output, at least so far as I am concerned.

I think we’re at cross purposes of the thread, but that’s ok.

I wasn’t only evaluating the unit based on its offensive output, but that is one factor, and Scouts stand out amongst Imperial units which, apart from the scouts, are generally not good offensive value for the points invested. Defensive value, sure, they’re usually well armored, but their offense is almost universally low.

Scout Troopers do have slightly worse armor, than Shoretroopers, but they also have the ability to build in cover 2. Meaning that Scouts suffer 2.667 wounds on 6 hits, and Shoretroopers suffer 3.

I don’t know that we can ascribe the motivations to others for choosing to not field full scout units. Or rather, I do know that we cannot and still be correct.

5 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

I've been advocating for Blue to be lowest activation for ages. I don't want to sound smug but as far as I know I was the first person to mention it on the boards. Let's dew it.

This would radically reduce the value of bidding by excluding single upgrades. Ie instead of dropping an extra trooper (10 points) you’d be incentivized to drop a naked unit 40 points, and then just give 4 other units an extra trooper: net result more points AND the advantage of dictating side/deck.

This would end up rewarding system fiddlers and anyone playing as GAR, which tends towards fewer, higher quality units.

11 hours ago, oaicart said:

Absolutely, a Commando at 15 points is a great deal. If you compare it to a Rebel Trooper (just the body), for 5 more points you have:

- Double the courage

- Low Profile instead of Nimble (we can discuss if thats better or not)

- Scout 2

- Sharpshooter 1

- Surge to hit.

Points wise, 15 is more than justified for a Commando, but the problem is when you make a competitive list. They don't do enough to justify losing the activations, and they are SF, so you can just have 3 of those units.

I mean, I’d probably drop upgrades instead.

Maybe an Endor-themed List? I’ll edit to add one.

staps... staps are overcostered lolz

53 minutes ago, Tirion said:

staps... staps are overcostered lolz

I'm inclined to agree, although they've got some nice utility with their more generous coordinate. 6 black with crit 2 isn't bad either.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

This would radically reduce the value of bidding by excluding single upgrades. Ie instead of dropping an extra trooper (10 points) you’d be incentivized to drop a naked unit 40 points, and then just give 4 other units an extra trooper: net result more points AND the advantage of dictating side/deck.

This would end up rewarding system fiddlers and anyone playing as GAR, which tends towards fewer, higher quality units.

Compared to the current system which rewards people for filling out their lists with naked corps squads. Which isn't really inherently worse, just saying that the current system is also exploitable. And in the current system, a player can have more activations (which is beneficial in pretty much all objectives) AND get to use their own objective deck. Giving the player with fewer activations blue means the other player will still have an advantage on scoring, but will at least get to use objectives their list should be good at.

Also I seriously doubt a system like this would lead to some crazy race-to-the-bottom for low activation lists just to guarantee blue player.

Also, a system like this encourages heavy vehicle use, and who doesn't want that? 😀

11 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I'm inclined to agree, although they've got some nice utility with their more generous coordinate. 6 black with crit 2 isn't bad either.

they have compulsory 3 they aren't going to be in range all that long.

3 minutes ago, Tirion said:

they have compulsory 3 they aren't going to be in range all that long.

It'll be fine for the first couple rounds where you'll have stuff double moving though. And they have an upgrade that doubles the range of coordinate.

1 hour ago, Tirion said:

staps... staps are overcostered lolz

first thing i thought when i saw the card, should cost 65 roughly, without defensive surge these things will disappear within seconds.

31 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Compared to the current system which rewards people for filling out their lists with naked corps squads. Which isn't really inherently worse, just saying that the current system is also exploitable. And in the current system, a player can have more activations (which is beneficial in pretty much all objectives) AND get to use their own objective deck. Giving the player with fewer activations blue means the other player will still have an advantage on scoring, but will at least get to use objectives their list should be good at.

Also I seriously doubt a system like this would lead to some crazy race-to-the-bottom for low activation lists just to guarantee blue player.

Also, a system like this encourages heavy vehicle use, and who doesn't want that? 😀

Naked corps at least have the disadvantage of being easy to peel off the board, can’t really say that about vehicles.

FFG do want to sell more than 1 box of Spec forces to people right ? because other than the Inferno squad who wants 3 squads with T-21 's

27 minutes ago, Tirion said:

they have compulsory 3 they aren't going to be in range all that long.

Did the card get posted somewhere?

Just now, buckero0 said:

Did the card get posted somewhere?

Facebook

5 hours ago, MajorSmexy said:

Do you have a source for that interview? I want to show it to a friend to try and convince him to do 1000 now XD

He talks about it at about the 5 minute mark. Alex is talking about the 500 point Skirmish game, and explains where the points started. Quote is below. Enjoy.

”...this was not ever the pitch for the full game of Legion. We didn’t start at 500 and grow to eight, we actually started at a 1,000 and cut down to 800 when we realized 1,000 points was taking way too long when we were designing the game.”

Honestly I think the new RTs are over costed too. Without a surge to crit, it’s not as good, yet it costs the same. So somehow it’s melee attack is worse for being a brand new unit.

And the Republic faction was billed as an elite faction. There is no way that RT is elite anything... ok, I guess it’s elite garbage. 😳

50 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

FFG do want to sell more than 1 box of Spec forces to people right ? because other than the Inferno squad who wants 3 squads with T-21 's

I was planning on getting 3 boxes. And painting them as AT-AT uniforms.

7 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

He talks about it at about the 5 minute mark. Alex is talking about the 500 point Skirmish game, and explains where the points started. Quote is below. Enjoy.

”...this was not ever the pitch for the full game of Legion. We didn’t start at 500 and grow to eight, we actually started at a 1,000 and cut down to 800 when we realized 1,000 points was taking way too long when we were designing the game.”

Thank you!

20 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Honestly I think the new RTs are over costed too. Without a surge to crit, it’s not as good, yet it costs the same. So somehow it’s melee attack is worse for being a brand new unit.

And the Republic faction was billed as an elite faction. There is no way that RT is elite anything... ok, I guess it’s elite garbage. 😳

It does gain Surge: Block though, so it will be tougher to remove from the table. Plus having a built-in ranged weapon with Impact is pretty nice.

24 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Honestly I think the new RTs are over costed too. Without a surge to crit, it’s not as good, yet it costs the same. So somehow it’s melee attack is worse for being a brand new unit.

And the Republic faction was billed as an elite faction. There is no way that RT is elite anything... ok, I guess it’s elite garbage. 😳

It surges to Block (+100% defense), has Scout 1 (helloooo flamethrower) and actually has a ranged weapon worth using on the card. All it loses is surge to Crit, which is not always useful (when would you ever need it in melee, unless you're melee'ing something with Armor?).

27 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

It does gain Surge: Block though, so it will be tougher to remove from the table. Plus having a built-in ranged weapon with Impact is pretty nice.

23 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

It surges to Block (+100% defense), has Scout 1 (helloooo flamethrower) and actually has a ranged weapon worth using on the card. All it loses is surge to Crit, which is not always useful (when would you ever need it in melee, unless you're melee'ing something with Armor?).

So let’s go over it. It has surge to defense, one more black die and Impact 1 on the native ranged attack and gets scout 1, but loses native surge to crit all for 10 extra points. So the melee attack, rotary, flamer and Laser Cannon are all worse than the original, but that’s ok, cause we have critical 1 on the native ranged attack.

The Republic faction was billed a the Elite faction. What part of this unit cries Elite to you?

In the current meta getting surge to defense will not save this unit from a one shot. I think it’s interesting that the original RT was given a 10 point reduction and before that never saw table time. This version trades attack value for a slight defensive increase.

Not an Elite unit.

Edit: oh and it’s the very first range 3 rocket in the game lol