I love Hyperspace now, but I don't think the devs had some brilliant plan to shape the game.

I honestly think the first question was, "Which ships aren't moving off store shelves? Let's give the players a reason to buy those."

Then the devs asked, "Does this make an interesting meta?" and tweaked it from there.

I suspect TIE interceptor, TIE defender, and Hound's Tooth were not over-produced in the same way early 2.0 expansions were, so they could stand to wait until next season.

Regarding Guardians of the Republic, FFG had already sold what they needed to. ARCs and Aethersprite expansions (I'm guessing) didn't sell as well because of the surplus of 1.0 ARCs, and because so many people bought multiple copies of Guardians. Removing Torrents encourages players to buy more stuff. It's not fair, but it's what FFG needed to do to be able to continue to support this game.

32 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I love Hyperspace now, but I don't think the devs had some brilliant plan to shape the game.

I honestly think the first question was, "Which ships aren't moving off store shelves? Let's give the players a reason to buy those."

Then the devs asked, "Does this make an interesting meta?" and tweaked it from there.

This is exactly what they did. I don’t fault them for it, but let’s not pretend it was anything other than a business decision.

Personally, I prefer extended even if the meta is relatively stable (often called stale). There’s so much variety that I can still avoid seeing the same things again and again. I get why they did what they did, and for specific tournament events that’s fine.

I’m somewhat of the belief that we can count on all future hyperspace decisions being made with similar framework. A few of the old to keep us from getting too upset but mostly use it as a driver for buying extra copies of a ship you would have either ignored because 1.0 models or bought only one of and now bought more.

I would have been less grumpy about hyper if they had left my named torrents at least even if they took away the gold squad (really who played the nameds? Anyone?) still would have to devise new stuff but not be completely cut off from filler/spam.

Which is ironic , because since 2.0 and Hyperspace, I've bought a lot less X-Wing product.

I used to buy one of everything, and multiples for swarms, but I've pruned down from 5 factions (before the prequel ships) to 4, and I didn't buy anything from Wave 6. And only one or two ships from Waves 4 and 5.

You say this was a pure business decision, yet, they removed all generics of the large base ships. I think Modern Magic has been around long enough for the designers to actually primarily be interested in a curated format. This is their first experiment, and frankly, quite tame in terms of cuts. People have advocated for generic swarms long enough that calling them allowing 5 X-wings as purely a business call is fairly ignorant of the community at large.

Yes, the focus on newer ships will always be a business call. And outside of one ship per faction, I think people have to be prepared for one of their preferred ships to leave Hyperspace.

1 hour ago, Sithborg said:

You say this was a pure business decision, yet, they removed all generics of the large base ships. I think Modern Magic has been around long enough for the designers to actually primarily be interested in a curated format. This is their first experiment, and frankly, quite tame in terms of cuts. People have advocated for generic swarms long enough that calling them allowing 5 X-wings as purely a business call is fairly ignorant of the community at large.

Absolutely. Those missing generics of large (and medium - let's not forget the Reaper) ships is part of the curation that goes beyond business decisions, and is an important part of their curating an interesting meta.

1 hour ago, Sithborg said:

Yes, the focus on newer ships will always be a business call . And outside of one ship per faction, I think people have to be prepared for one of their preferred ships to leave Hyperspace.

That's the thing, this round of Hyperspace isn't focused on newer ships. Sure, that's a big part of it with the release of Fireball, TIE/ba and Hotshots and Aces, but so is increasing the number of X-wings, TIE/fo fighters, TIE strikers, and M3-A interceptors you can take in a squad. And I know from looking at shelves at the FLGS and Barnes and Noble that T-65 X-wings, TIE strikers and TIE/fo fighters are found in abundance.

I don't dispute that reducing the cost of these ships past the "break point" has been avidly advocated by some on the forums, but others (like myself) were quite a bit more cautious about such a decision. Turns out that the people advocating for reducing their cost were right - it's fantastic!

12 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Turns out that the people advocating for reducing their cost were right - it's fantastic!

Glad to know some others think so too.

I found new reasons why going past the break points for generic was even better. Ones I never even dreamed of.

Even I3s and I4s are no longer useless, as the I2/I3 bulk can make games go to time often and extend the midgame drastically past turn7, lategame aces no longer have more maybe 2 turns max to do their lategame thing and thus become far less valuable. I3 I4 can now prey on the generics in abundance, they generally have abilities that are heavy value/pure-efficiency. This isn't true of many I5 I6 aces, whose abilities are much more mediocre.

Surprise, the game is even more balanced than it used to be (on a grand scale). And it all started with good generic I1 I2 balance.

This isn't about Hyperspace though, that's for Extended balance too. I hope people don't get those mixed up. Hyperspace happens to also benefit.

On 2/23/2020 at 8:53 PM, gadwag said:

How many brand-new players are showing up to events on day 1 of playing? I've never seen that happen - for one thing, someone needs to tell them about the tournament.

On the flip side, imagine that player entering an extended event with their tie interceptors and seeing all the other imperial players running TIE Phantoms, TIE Bombers and Lambda shuttles. "Yeah, this is an extended event. If you want to compete, you need a $50 conversion kit and some second-hand out-of-print models".

In both cases, the community should be helping out the new player by telling them what to expect and (if possible) loaning them ships to play until they can build their collection.

I feel like people were taking my point about the difficulties of new players getting into hyperspace out of context.. and possibly we should say that "event" doesn't necessarily mean "competition". What I'm concerned about is people showing up to their FLGS x-wing night for the first time (which is ,even according to FFG, technically an "event") and having players tell them that they don't want to play because the newbie happens to have bought ships that they thought would be cool and fun, rather than buying ships that are hyperspace approved.

I think it's pretty obvious what I was talking about as I suggested that players should try to keep lists for both formats, which wouldn't be possible at a tournament. I really don't care if someone only wants to show up to tournaments of one type or the other, but I think it would be a real tragedy if those biases were to show up on a casual play night at the FLGS. Even something as little mentioning hyperspace or extended to a new player might actually be enough to cause them to get nervous about the game and no want to play anymore.. I would suggest wating until they start talking about competitions, or if you choose to invite them to a competition because you think they're ready, then you would mention what format the competition is and what that means.

Keep in mind, also, that Hyperspace lists ARE extended legal, and playing a hyperspace list against an extended list might be a decent handicap for a veteran who is playing against a newb. So if you enjoy hyperspace, you don't have to yuck their yum.

8 minutes ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

having players tell them that they don't want to play because the newbie happens to have bought ships that they thought would be cool and fun, rather than buying ships that are hyperspace approved.

I completely agree with you, but... who does such a thing? People should bring lists for both formats, yes. However, if I have a hyperspace list and someone new enters the store, why the heck would I not play with my hyperspace list against his extended list?! A local community that acts that way deserves to fall apart, they dig their own grave. Probably the same people who then come here and complain how the formats or 2.0 destroyed their local community...

Just yesterday I played against someone new, it was his first game outside of his kitchen table. He bought republic because it's easy to start with something reasonable for cheap (2 Jedi and an N1). It took over 2h, we discussed obstacle placements, setups, tricks with maneuvers, how to guesstimate moves and ranges, and so on. After the game we talked about the factions, some cool ships and popular or fun lists. Unfortunately it was a league game and I did not know that he's that new.

I think we veterans tend to forget just how complex the game can be for fresh eyes. There are a lot of details that we take for granted. Just explaining obstacles again to someone, as example, helps to regain some perspective.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think we veterans tend to forget just how complex the game can be for fresh eyes. There are a lot of details that we take for granted. Just explaining obstacles again to someone, as example, helps to regain some perspective.

I had some experience of this very fact this week. Two new players came along to our regular play night, and were playing a low-cost (something like 120ish points) game to get used to the rules and how everything works.

I wound up helping them, as I didn't have an opponent, but it was very interesting to see how they thought things worked and how they interpreted the rules. Admittedly, one player didn't help himself as settled on a pair of N-1s which aren't the most beginner-friendly of ships. They had fun, however, and I hope they come back to play again (especially as we'll hopefully see an uptick in player numbers now that we're emerging from winter, which has traditionally meant people being willing to travel further to play on week nights).

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Just yesterday I played against someone new, it was his first game outside of his kitchen table. He bought republic because it's easy to start with something reasonable for cheap (2 Jedi and an N1). It took over 2h, we discussed obstacle placements, setups, tricks with maneuvers, how to guesstimate moves and ranges, and so on. After the game we talked about the factions, some cool ships and popular or fun lists. Unfortunately it was a league game and I did not know that he's that new.

I think we veterans tend to forget just how complex the game can be for fresh eyes. There are a lot of details that we take for granted. Just explaining obstacles again to someone, as example, helps to regain some perspective.

We have some newer folks in our casual community. When someone brand new shows up, a series of events happens:

1. I hand them a Filthy Casuals (our group name) sticker and welcome them as one of our own.

2. If I’m not playing a game yet, I will bust out a squadron with minimal triggers to keep tabs on (something like 4 ships of the same generic, or 1-2 named pilots and some generics).

3. whoever is playing them (myself or another one of us) works on one concept at a time with them. Based on what I see in play dictates what tip I work on. For some players, I start with the rule of 11. For others, obstacle placement and planning my routes given the lanes available. Maybe someone else gets a lesson in target priority based on how they react in game.

I am one of those new players. Three weeks ago bought a core set and an extra t-65. Showed up on what turned out to be league night with a naked Han flying Falcon, Luke, and wedge. Now, this Sunday there is a Hyperspace store tournament they are prepping for. Knowing that, someone sat down, played a game with me and the group next to us was fantastic at asking my admittedly stupid questions...I went in having watched a few Team Covenant vids, a couple Gold Squadron and so forth, and having read the rules several times. But reading/watching is not playing.

So as I engaged in bumper cars, basically self-immolating Wedge without getting a shot off as I rammed ships and asteroids and asteroids and ships...asking what I could do/couldn't do.

Note: I was NOT flying a Hyperspace legal list, on a league night, against people prepping for the first store tournament this location has had. And the entire group went out of their way to answer questions, make me feel welcome, assure me that my beginner mistakes and doing a couple things late (flip force after dials set, for example) were fine. I had a fantastic time. Week two and three I brought Hyperspace legal lists. Unfortunately, I neglected one thing...to make sure I had all the cards. I didn't. I am a big boy, my mistake, I was happy to play without them. But the guy I was playing instead insisted on loaning me those cards to get the experience...and one ended up being a key in my beating him in a tight game that came down to the last shot. Had a great time.

Last night was my third game. I brought a friend to watch.

My lack of knowledge resulted in the game being over on turn 2 even though it lasted about 6 turns. I was not aware of a combo that led to all 3 of his ships having target locks and focus and he one-turned Luke from the board. Despite that, I had a great time in the game and my buddy is planning to pick up his own starter set.

Here is the thing; having watched Luke arc-dodge and force use his way to survivability for a couple weeks and then getting my face melted off has all the earmarks of what COULD be an NPE. But because of the community it looked to Shawn and was to me so much fun he wants to play.

I don't have enough experience to comment on some of the nuances you guys are talking about but I can say as a new player...I really like Hyperspace even though I can't fly Wedge or Soontir Fel. Two ships I bought because I loved the X-wing novels. But I also know if I want a game with them, I can post in the discord and multiple people will say "bring them on down and play".

I am at a point in my life where I have no desire to play tournaments. I don't like how competitive I get. So I am not the tournament target audience, but I am definitely a "buy lots of x-wing" audience...every time I play in league night I try to pick up a ship or an accoutrement to support the store...and as part of that audience...I absolutely love where hyperspace is currently at.

On 2/26/2020 at 3:21 PM, Koing907 said:

Which is ironic , because since 2.0 and Hyperspace, I've bought a lot less X-Wing product.

I used to buy one of everything, and multiples for swarms, but I've pruned down from 5 factions (before the prequel ships) to 4, and I didn't buy anything from Wave 6. And only one or two ships from Waves 4 and 5.

As did so many others, and myself included. Now with 2.0, I just focus on three factions -- Rebel, Imperial, and Republic, but mainly Rebel. I may get some of the card packs when I can in the future to round out my squads that could flesh out my squads.

4 hours ago, SteveSpikes said:

As did so many others, and myself included. Now with 2.0, I just focus on three factions -- Rebel, Imperial, and Republic, but mainly Rebel. I may get some of the card packs when I can in the future to round out my squads that could flesh out my squads.

Yep. I'm not even criticizing FFG on that point. There's plenty of games with tons of factions, and unless you have lots of cash to burn, you can't possibly collect everything.
Which is why I'm glad they finally got around to doing card packs, which will hopefully aleviate the problem of having to buy out of faction to get important upgrades.

18 hours ago, SteveSpikes said:

As did so many others, and myself included. Now with 2.0, I just focus on three factions -- Rebel, Imperial, and Republic, but mainly Rebel. I may get some of the card packs when I can in the future to round out my squads that could flesh out my squads.

This card pack is actually probably really good for the Rebels if you ask me. Maybe find friends who play the other factions to part the pilots you don’t need off to them?

14 hours ago, Koing907 said:

Yep. I'm not even criticizing FFG on that point. There's plenty of games with tons of factions, and unless you have lots of cash to burn, you can't possibly collect everything.
Which is why I'm glad they finally got around to doing card packs, which will hopefully aleviate the problem of having to buy out of faction to get important upgrades.

I had a rather large collection on the dawn of 2.0, so I’ve managed to mostly keep up. Republic gets first dibs on new releases for me, followed by First Order.

I did pick up a round of droids for a few squads last Black Friday at my LGS. But I’m not planning on buying too many of them outside of big sales.

I hope that that there is a new card pack every other wave now - at least of the upgrades in the waves before (this pack lined up with 4-6, I’d hope that around wave 8 a pack appears with cards from 7-8).

On 2/28/2020 at 10:41 AM, darthweasel2 said:

I am at a point in my life where I have no desire to play tournaments. I don't like how competitive I get. So I am not the tournament target audience, but I am definitely a "buy lots of x-wing" audience...every time I play in league night I try to pick up a ship or an accouterment to support the store...and as part of that audience...I absolutely love where hyperspace is currently at.

Great feedback. And very indicative of what so much of the new player experience has been with this format that has been seen in last 6 weeks. FFG continues to dial it in better and better and it's observations like this that show that they are on the right course to providing a great option for new players with Hyperspace.

Great and thoughtful analysis.

I am personnally in a stage of my life that family comes first, so X-Wing has been put on the shelves since the last adjustment.

I really do love the concept of the game. I would play it forever.

However, I find that the latest batch of tournaments are hyperspace, and 2 things are ruling actually : Boba Fenn and swarms. I dont like the state of hyperspace because of that. The other thing that has buzzed me is that the games in tournament are mainly based on going on time and kill more than being killed, and not achieve the victory before the time limit. Yes, there is less double mods, but it creates longer games, and more a "time game" strategy.

By playing extended, yes, force users are a threat, but they are balanced with all the other stuff.

They should REALLY do a points list for hyperspace and another for extended. Some ships or combos are stronger in HS because they do not have the same variety of oposition as extended. It would create something else, and maybe the hs could be the lab test for the points changes in extended.

For the time limit, i think that limiting the number of ships on the table to 7 instead of 8 would balance the swarm of separatists. It would help

Does this count as a necro post after five months of dormancy? I found this thread via a global search for stuff about the Hyperspace format and had to read the whole thing.

Hi. I'm a n00b. Don't even have a core set yet (coming soon). Closest FLGS that hasn't gone out of business is a long drive from here, but I've managed to turn up a couple of semi-local sources regardless. Trying not to buy online if I can help it.

I learned about this game a couple of weeks ago, when my oldest daughter (who with her SO had to close their own FLGS last year) asked whether I'd like to be gifted some miscellaneous leftover X-Wing stuff they had. Sure, I said, and went to town reading up on it. Now I'm captivated. Turns out what she has is some 1.0 stuff (kind of makes sense) and I'm already looking at what conversion kits I'll want. Anyone know what trouble a body can get into with three Star Vipers? Heh.

Anyway, to the topic: after voracious reading and consuming of how-to and game play videos, I am extremely grateful for the HS format; it's enabled me to narrow my focus with respect to what I need to learn about the (to my mind) rather large pile of available cards and the bewildering array of ways they can interact. Yeah, it means that a large percentage of the lists I read about are either outright illegal, or have become so after various changes in the rules. It's okay, I'm good with that.

I just wanted to present myself as perhaps one of the typical use cases FFG might have had in mind when they came up with the concept. I'm rather glad they did so. I'm looking forward to the current pandemic situation opening up some opportunity to sit down at a table with the couple of local folks I've managed to run across who've played it before, and get my happy rumpus waxed until I learn some skills.

Then we'll see about that larger pool.

I mean, there’s definitely some necromancy involved here, but it’s for a good cause. Welcome to the game!

21 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

I mean, there’s definitely some necromancy involved here, but it’s for a good cause. Welcome to the game!

Thanks! I'll try only to use my Dark Arts for good. 😎 🍺

Now that I have a few more minutes, I wanted to give my personal thoughts on Hyperspace.

Bear in mind that the Hyperspace format is not exactly that “new player friendly” format that we all kind of expected that it would be. Now, it certainly is far more friendly to new players than extended, but there a few things to be aware of. Hyperspace has a rotation of what is legal or not, and some pretty new ships were rotated out of Hyperspace. As an example, the Republic V19 torrent (which comes in the squadron pack/starter for the Republic, for crying out loud) was rotated out of Hyperspace. This caught some people by surprise since the ship was great filler in a list, and Jedi + Torrents was a pretty popular list archetype. Separatists lost the Bulbasaur (not the real name, obviously), a really important support piece. Then some of those ships were cycled back in again. Other cards were never even made hyperspace legal (I think, anyway. I can’t recall the Gunner version of Ahsoka ever being Hyperspace legal).

So, Hyperspace can get a little confusing and messy, and there is no guarantee that the ships you buy will always be usable in Hyperspace. In fact, if they aren’t X-Wings or TIE fighters, count on them being cut out of the rotation at some point.

Hyperspace is turning more into a modified version of Magic: the Gathering’s standard format. You can use most of the newest stuff along with a few older things.

That being said, Hyperspace is still more beginner friendly than extended. Not only do you have less cards to worry about, but you are less likely to go up against the most abusive lists in the game.

My advice would be to make sure your collection is diverse enough to roll with any punches that come along in Hyperspace. I commonly advised new players who were interested in Republic to pick up the squadron pack and a spare Aetherwing, since that let them build a competent list (Anakin, Ahsoka or Obi-Wan, and 2 Torrents) for a minimal investment. Now 75% of that list isn’t hyperspace legal, and even in extended has been priced into oblivion.

8 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

So, Hyperspace can get a little confusing and messy, and there is no guarantee that the ships you buy will always be usable in Hyperspace. In fact, if they aren’t X-Wings or TIE fighters, count on them being cut out of the rotation at some point.

In the comparatively short time I've been studying this game I've already seen this a-plenty, and assert you make a very fair point. Even trying to winnow out the Hyperspace-friendly stuff I read and watch to include only the newest material I can find, already I encounter list advice and discussion that's become obsolete since the July points release.

I think my biggest disappointment was the loss of the U-Wing, because I was all primed to grab a copy of the Saw's Rebellion expansion and have a capable multi-seat ship in my formations. Now people are including things like a freighter pod just so they can get crew into the lists. Not my favorite aspect of what the Hyperspace Resistance faction has become, but there it is. It's probable that what drew me to the Resistance for my first faction is I love how the T-70 is more faithful to the original McQuarrie concept art and so I had to up and buy a quartet of them as my first purchase—then rationalize some casual-play lists that leverage them after the fact. 🙃

Well, luckily, 4 Black Squadron Aces with Heroic is fully hyperspace legal, a blast to fly, and a pretty good list, all wrapped into one package. You even have 8 points left over to play around with!

1 minute ago, FatherTurin said:

Well, luckily, 4 Black Squadron Aces with Heroic is fully hyperspace legal, a blast to fly, and a pretty good list, all wrapped into one package. You even have 8 points left over to play around with!

As a matter of fact, in List Builder that's one of my lists to be tried, with an R4 on each to make them a little bouncier. 😎 🍺

Another is Jess and a retinue of Reds with BBs to keep her company. I got a bevy of fun ideas to try in the Red Tide thread I started for just that purpose.