6 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

It did - when it was released. There's been more since then.

#onpoint

I think it's also notable that Separatists have an extremely low turn-out on average, but still have a couple players make the cut.. their "conversion rate" is much higher than other factions it seems.. and maybe it's just me, but it seems like all the battlereports I've seen are some kind of swarm against either Boba or FO aces.. and I've never seen FO win those matches. Interestingly, I've seen separatist swarms beat Boba, but I don't think I've heard of separatists actually winning a tourney so far (I'm sure they have, just not any that I've seen)

11 minutes ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

I think it's also notable that Separatists have an extremely low turn-out on average, but still have a couple players make the cut.. their "conversion rate" is much higher than other factions it seems.. and maybe it's just me, but it seems like all the battlereports I've seen are some kind of swarm against either Boba or FO aces.. and I've never seen FO win those matches. Interestingly, I've seen separatist swarms beat Boba, but I don't think I've heard of separatists actually winning a tourney so far (I'm sure they have, just not any that I've seen)

There's at least two. I don't remember which events they were, exactly, but Dooku + Vultures won an Australian SO, I think, and 6 Hyenas + Prox Mines won in South America (Brazil?). Both were prior to the January points update, so it's possible that no CIS lists have won tournaments using the new points yet.

15 minutes ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

I think it's also notable that Separatists have an extremely low turn-out on average, but still have a couple players make the cut.. their "conversion rate" is much higher than other factions it seems.. and maybe it's just me, but it seems like all the battlereports I've seen are some kind of swarm against either Boba or FO aces.. and I've never seen FO win those matches. Interestingly, I've seen separatist swarms beat Boba, but I don't think I've heard of separatists actually winning a tourney so far (I'm sure they have, just not any that I've seen)

CIS beat Boba to win Texas System Open two weeks ago. (vid attached)

Also won quite a few tourneys

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1572

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1549

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1537

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1535

Keep in mind, these are great players winning these events. The potential brainpower that goes into managing their planning and activation makes my head explode.

On 2/19/2020 at 5:21 PM, Cloaker said:

1) Less Means More

Without the litany of potentially confounding card combinations and neurotic addiction to widely available I6 Ace crutches, players are having to become more resourceful in their choices of maneuvers and upgrades. There are less bids, and more ships on the board. Newer players are showing more comfort in learning the game through Hyperspace in both OP and local scenes, and getting more reps in flying their ships. More ships and accessories are getting purchased as well, as evidenced by the hilariously fun debut of the Fireball and the Hotshots and Aces pack, with 12 of the 16 pilots and most of the upgrades folding quite neatly into the format.

2) What's Old Is New Again

As prominently maligned as Boba and CIS Swarms both are currently, consider that having both in Hyperspace in the initial meta are what allows everything else to have a chance if flown well. Remove one archetype, and Hyperspace is undoubtedly worse for it. We have 2 ship and 8 ship lists both viable right now. The olden days of fat non-small base ships and 7+ Swarms can both be enjoyed. That's a helluva thing to get right from a design standpoint, and it encourages player development on how to engage both types of builds. These are crucial skills to learn as a newcomer and relearn as a veteran, ultimately good for the health of the game as a whole.

3) We've Only Just Begun

There are Hyperspace puzzle pieces available to all that are dangling in space for exploration for those that dare to experiment; Outmaneuver and Intimidate providing denial of those precious defense dice that Boba gets to reroll, or the swarms get to calculate mod. Snap Shot and Foresight , which can deplete force charges or damage defenders prematurely when 50% probability hits are scored. Daredevil and Coaxium Hyperfuel , which encourage risk taking in order to gain more favorable positions both offensively and defensively. Secondary Weapons like Plasma Torpedoes and Mag-Pulse Missiles become potentially tremendous equalizers for both alpha strike lists and spam generics, against 1-2 agility defenders and "shoot last" aces. Supposed current meta staples will have a harder time against the future varieties once such counters are crafted by capable players.

4) Choices Matter More In A Vacuum

Bringing the three smallest asteroids and placing the opponent's preferred obstacles out of play is a valid strategy now more than ever before. Unconventionally angling one's ships during placement can yield new approach vectors in practicing how to avoid the full brunt of a joust. And strangely enough, many more games are going to time less or achieving a definitive conclusion within that time more often. Every round is a scramble for an edge---one that was a bit easier to attain in Extended, but now must be earned just a little bit more.

5) There Is Balance In The Force

At the recent UK and Texas System Opens, 5 of the game's 7 factions made the top 10. 6 of 7 made top 10 at the 69 player Sith Taker HS Side Event, as well as the 35+ players events in France and Western AUS. EVERY faction made the top 10 at the 40 player Brisbane Hyperspace Trial. Over half of the game's factions have won major events, with all placing in the top 4 somewhere along the way. More than ever, it's become about skilled flying than OP certain faction creep.

6) Excitement Is In The Air

Perhaps more so than anytime except for the the debut of 2.0 or the inclusion of prequel ships in Wave 3, there is newfound energy and momentum being gained in Hyperspace events amongst player bases. Seasoned players indulge their inner Johnny and try to decode new synergies. New players are discovering their dormant Spike through an easier entry into competitive formats. And everyone gets to be a bit more Timmy when they make it all come together, and meet more people socially while enjoying their occasional magical 200-0 game where their pew pew sorcery happens.

WHAT'S AHEAD?

Nothing but potential---After a lackluster start, The Vonreg's TIE scientists are still hard at work determinedly trying to chip away at its tactical offerings. Multiple Deadman's Switch Fireballs promise utterly chaotic mischief for those delicate low HP droids and high HP power pieces. The M3-A, a ship long dismissed competitively, continues to gain credibility due to it's hardpoint and pilot abilities. Jumpmasters are appearing in the wild, proving to be more challenging than anticipated and there are no riots. Fragile precision chassis like the Fang, Nantex, Aethersprite and TIE Striker offer future rewards to the exacting player. And wave 7 will certainly shake things up even more as the prequel factions ships most likely get added into Hyperspace to bolster their ship count. With Store Championships now in full swing, it now lies upon each of us to continue to cultivate our local scenes and Keep. Bringing. New. Players. In.

And Hyperspace does that easier than anything else currently in the game.

Fly on, and cheers to those of you rediscovering your love of the game through this format.

PEACE OUT

I get the point of the post is to be positive. But some of the stuff here seems to be borderline hyperbole, or not very data driven.

Like do we really know "Newer players are showing more comfort in learning the game through Hyperspace in both OP and local scenes, and getting more reps in flying their ships?" I don't think so... What does hyperspace have to do with a new player getting reps? If they had the same squad they could play it the same amount in extended too. That's not unique to hyperspace. "More ships and accessories are getting purchased". Really? Again, i wouldn't say that with such certainty.

TBH honest a lot of the things you suggest could be open for exploration: " Outmaneuver and Intimidate providing denial of those precious defense dice that Boba gets to reroll, or the swarms get to calculate mod. Snap Shot and Foresight , which can deplete force charges or damage defenders prematurely when 50% probability hits are scored. Daredevil and Coaxium Hyperfuel , which encourage risk taking in order to gain more favorable positions both offensively and defensively. Secondary Weapons like Plasma Torpedoes and Mag-Pulse Missiles" --- are also potentially explorable combinations in extended as well. At least, thats what I'm doing.

"Bringing the three smallest asteroids and placing the opponent's preferred obstacles out of play is a valid strategy now more than ever before. " Why?

"Unconventionally angling one's ships during placement can yield new approach vectors in practicing how to avoid the full brunt of a joust." So your saying jousting matters more in hyperspace than extended? Maybe. I'm not sure if we actually want to get more joust-y

5) There Is Balance In The Force --- several others have already commented on this one

Anyway, Its probably clear that I'm not as convinced as you are how great hyperspace is. But I'm not saying its necessarily bad either. I just think we, as a player base, should avoid the circle faffery of proclaiming how great hyperspace is to the exclusion, citing things that probably are also true in extended, and not being very objective--with the end result of fracturing our community even more into hyperspac-ers, extended-ers, and epic-ers.

19 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Feels like you are just seeing what you want to see. Must be nice.

The new hyperspace was a good idea in concept, but I'm already looking forward to the next culling in June.

I mean, this was the first time we had an actual rotation. And really, there will always be people wanting tinker with what the designers do. Just don't be surprised if you still feel that way when the next update comes out.

8 hours ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

Hyperspace format isn't necessarily better than extended for new players. Consider that new players have fewer options available to them to begin with, so when some of those options get removed, it can hit them harder. for instance, my first list is a Nantex list. With "ensnare" now being so expensive and no longer hyperspace legal, I can field a 200 point extended Nantex list, but I'm 1 or 2 ships short of a decent hyperspace legal list.

Even if I had decided to get the separatist box to start me off, it would have been awkward since the "main" ship in the box is no longer hyperspace legal. Buying the republic box would have a similar problem for people starting in that faction, with the two cheaper ships not being legal. The point being, the monetary barrier to entry is actually higher for hyperspace, because you need more specific stuff. Meanwhile the game being "more balanced" or "more skill dependent" doesn't make it better for new players to compete in, as new players are the ones who haven't learned all the necessary skills yet.

Now I'm not complaining about hyperspace format. It might take a little more money to get a list I can use in Hyperspace, but I still plan on doing that, and now I have reasons to want to play extended as well, even though my faction didn't even exist in 1.0, so I'm pretty happy about that.

in closing, I believe that players should try to keep lists for each format, and should try to show respect for each format. Remember that new players may actually not be able to create a hyperspace legal list right away, or they may have ships/upgrades that they've never had a chance to use.

I would call Hyperspace easier for new players in the sense that it is far less overwhelming for a new player. Far less ships, far less pilots, and far less upgrades to be aware of. That is clearly the point with Hyperspace focusing more on actual 2.0 releases.

4 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

I don't have too many issues with Hyperspace, even if they did remove my beloved Wedge Antilles and Soontir Fel.

But not making the V-19 legal at all seems completely absurd to me. If you're worried about Gold Trooper spam, then ban GSTs (though I really don't think they'd have been a problem). Taking away one of the faction's core ships and a backbone of list building seems very unfair.

Imagine the uproar if the basic TIE Fighter wasn't Hyperspace legal...

I think it is clear that each faction is going to have 1 or 2 core ships that will always be Hyperspace legal, even if not all the pilots will be. I mean, which ship do you think should be dropped to make room for the new ships? And I am not over convinced that ships will not re-enter Hyperspace.

HYPErspace

12 hours ago, gadwag said:

If the easy options are on the table, why would you not take them? Sure, you can leverage your skill to do well without them, but if you leverage your skill and bring the power cards you're going to do better - especially because everyone else is bringing the most powerful lists they can.

(If you're not playing/testing a tournament list, this doesn't matter of course. I Love playing suboptimal whacky lists for fun).

3 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Just because you can fly the limited choices against the other limited choices doesn't make the limited choices good against unlimited choices. How much mileage do those TIE/lns without Howlrunner get against Crack Shot Wedge? Do you put Crack Shot in the list because nothing else is worthwhile or because you've only got one point for a talent?

My point was that the "easy" choices aren't necessarily the "best" choices, and Hyperspace is teaching us that. The conventional wisdom that has been around for several seasons is well-accepted, but is it actually true? 3 copies of crack shot are easy to use and very consistent, but maybe one Intimidation will get you significantly further if you play it well. Howlrunner is easy to use, but it's almost certainly better to leave your 4-6 TIEs unsupported and bring an ace to round your squad out. The meta staple upgrades have a much lower skill ceiling than the meta staple upgrades in Hyperspace. So Hyperspace players will (as often as not) do somewhat better with those higher-ceiling lists as long as they can play at the level that those lists demand.

My point isn't that "less powerful lists can still do okay" but rather that "maybe those lists from last season aren't the end-all be-all anymore" due to the recent points changes and the more abundant counters that exist now to the super-repositioning aces that dominated previously in the form of cheaper generics and mid-initiative pilots.

Not saying I couldn't be wrong, but I'm passionately intrigued by how this extended season will play out (even though it totally blew up my statistical points-cost model RIP)

3 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

Like do we really know "Newer players are showing more comfort in learning the game through Hyperspace in both OP and local scenes, and getting more reps in flying their ships?" I don't think so... What does hyperspace have to do with a new player getting reps? If they had the same squad they could play it the same amount in extended too.

Man, where do I even start? Innumerable firsthand observations across three major metro cities in TX, also the 140+ Texas System Open where I had the privilege to judge and interact from peeps all over the nation, watching product fly off the shelves at the FLGS where I help out and reading the various online dialogues and podcast forums, seeing them in play at said SOS, and conversations across those scores of players. The 2nd edition only players really seem to ease into it far better than the previous HS iterations---and with less options, more onus on core game mechanics. Higher ship count averages in HS (where players are less likely to go upgrade crazy and opt for more firing arcs) also means more reps. Less mistakes from newbies on missed interactions due to list complexities, etc. Much improved now. It's awesomesauce.

3 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

"Bringing the three smallest asteroids and placing the opponent's preferred obstacles out of play is a valid strategy now more than ever before. " Why?

Sure, let's explain this a bit more; Some of the emergent options in HS, CIS and MGTs greatly dislike the three smallest asteroids. So do duck and run high AG/maneuverable aces., tractor beamers, etc. First player agency on placement of their obstacles can be quite advantageous. Try it out when/if you play some HS, you might see a bit of benefit there

3 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

So your saying jousting matters more in hyperspace than extended? Maybe. I'm not sure if we actually want to get more joust-y

Avoiding joust actually, apologies if that came off confusing.... One of the big takeaways from HS is how much more joust management skills are required. I.E. less upgrades or easy defense pilots, more ships to contend with, chaos reigns

3 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

Anyway, Its probably clear that I'm not as convinced as you are how great hyperspace is. But I'm not saying its necessarily bad either. I just think we, as a player base, should avoid the circle faffery of proclaiming how great hyperspace is to the exclusion, citing things that probably are also true in extended, and not being very objective--with the end result of fracturing our community even more into hyperspac-ers, extended-ers, and epic-ers.

Aha, the crux of your concern! Totally valid. Ok, let's consider; Any fracture that was going to happen with veteran players between extended and HS already is done . Been done for well over a year, really. Nothing late has changed those minds for or against once they planted their flags on format hills. Also, Epic will always be a fun niche, but it really doesn't siphon off the base anymore in 2.0 then it did in 1.0.

But back to how HS is becoming quite the learning laboratory; In our local scene, we didn't go from 6 people to 16/18 players average on a weeknight due to the many options and easy learning of Extended Play. It's reeling them in on the basics. I can't tell you how many newly interested peeps I've sat down with doing Hyperspace as a baseline to hook into the game. I see you've been active on the forums since 2016---so you know a thing or two--- but it's easy to forget how overwhelming the complexities of 2.0 can be to the uninitiated . There's a 40 page Rules Reference. A problematic app and various squadbuilders to navigate, OOP ships and obscure abilities/upgrades that X-Wing rookies are totally oblivious to, etc etc. It's daunting to the new recruits. HS is the sleekest method of getting them to swim in the deep end of the pool. The ocean of Extended of course awaits them later, and that's where players like you come in. You can take them from the sprint to the marathon.

The trick, for all of us, is to divest oneself of format allegiances (and for some, pilot/upgrade/ship loyalties) and analyze what makes our games BETTER. It's players new / old learning / relearning the sheer implementation of it all. The fundamentals. There's just less static and unknown noise in the HS format, so endorsing it as a benefit for the many can only feed the long term health of the game. There's reasons, both financial and design, for this most recent curation to exist and have the options as laid out. And we need to remember; If Hyperspace DIDN'T exist, what percentage of new players could really come in and feel they're on a level playing field? Food for thought!

Good dialogue, cheers

18 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

It did - when it was released. There's been more since then.

That's not an argument. It's not even an excuse. That's just... sad. You're effectively saying to new Republic players "Hey, you know that "starter set" you bought? You might as well just can it and buy something else, because it's going to have zero value for most of 2020".

In fact, by removing the Torrent from Hyperspace format, FFG may as well have said "Don't bother buying Guardians of the Republic for the forseeable future, because you won't be getting a game with them".

Just imaging being a brand new player and picking up the 2nd Edition Core set and a couple of the recently re-released for 2nd Edition TIE Interceptors because you love the ships, only to be told when you turn up for a game at your FLGS "Yeah, this is a Hyperspace Event. You can't fly them".

Grim.

7 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

My point was that the "easy" choices aren't necessarily the "best" choices, and Hyperspace is teaching us that.

I'm pro-Hyperspace, but that doesn't logically follow. "Intimidate and Outmaneuver are being proven just as good as Crack Shot" is not a logically sound or valid statement in an environment where they aren't competing with Crack Shot.

On 2/22/2020 at 1:48 AM, ClassicalMoser said:

My point was that the "easy" choices aren't necessarily the "best" choices, and Hyperspace is teaching us that.

I agree with Jeff on this. Hyperspace is forcing us to be creative with cards that aren't used as often, but it's not proving that those are better than the other options available in extended.

As a general principle, though, yes, "easy" doesn't always mean "best". For a long time, crack shot itself was ignored. Most upgrades that are now seen as "easy" choices only got there because players put the time in to try them out when they were being ignored.

On 2/22/2020 at 4:10 AM, FTS Gecko said:

Just imaging being a brand new player and picking up the 2nd Edition Core set and a couple of the recently re-released for 2nd Edition TIE Interceptors because you love the ships, only to be told when you turn up for a game at your FLGS "Yeah, this is a Hyperspace Event. You can't fly them".

How many brand-new players are showing up to events on day 1 of playing? I've never seen that happen - for one thing, someone needs to tell them about the tournament.

On the flip side, imagine that player entering an extended event with their tie interceptors and seeing all the other imperial players running TIE Phantoms, TIE Bombers and Lambda shuttles. "Yeah, this is an extended event. If you want to compete, you need a $50 conversion kit and some second-hand out-of-print models".

In both cases, the community should be helping out the new player by telling them what to expect and (if possible) loaning them ships to play until they can build their collection.

I mean, Hyperspace isn't perfect. The Interceptor and Defender not making it in felt odd.

But, "show up with illegal list" is a complaint for any game with formats. That only really applies to those that don't do their basic research ahead of time.

11 hours ago, gadwag said:

How many brand-new players are showing up to events on day 1 of playing? I've never seen that happen - for one thing, someone needs to tell them about the tournament.

Plenty? There's these little things called "Gaming Stores", don't know if they have them in your area? They can run events pretty regularly - my local store has X-Wing nights twice a week, for example. Naturally they also stock 2nd Edition X-Wing product, and they usually fly using the Hyperspace format. And as these events are held at the store, surprise surprise, you get a lot of people showing interest and wondering how they can get involved.

Now imagine the confusion when a prospective, interested new player is looking through what's on the shelf, only to be told if they want to join in the day's flying they can't fly this, can't fly that, can"y use this upgrade, that pilot etc.

11 hours ago, gadwag said:

On the flip side, imagine that player entering an extended event with their tie interceptors and seeing all the other imperial players running TIE Phantoms, TIE Bombers and Lambda shuttles. "Yeah, this is an extended event. If you want to compete, you need a $50 conversion kit and some second-hand out-of-print models".

Yeah, no. That's a ridiculous comparison. Extended doesn't actively PROHIBIT you from flying certain ships and upgrades. And you certainly DON'T need to buy 1st Edition ships or conversion kits to be competitive. Far from it. The entire existinance of successful Republic and Seperatist factions - which don't need purchases of conversion kits or out-of-print 1st Edition ships - shows what an ineffectual argument that is.

In any case, we're not talking about "being competitive" - we're talking about a prospective new player just wanting to get involved and play the game out of the box with minimum fuss or direction, with what they can currently buy at their local store. And from that point of view, Extended is now a more newcomer friendly format that Hyperspace.

11 hours ago, gadwag said:

In both cases, the community should be helping out the new player by telling them what to expect and (if possible) loaning them ships to play until they can build their collection.

Oh, absolutely, the community should be helping out where they can. That help is a lot more necessary when prepping players for Hyperspace play than it is Extended play, however.

New players go to their first tournament for a single reason. It's not 'to be competitive'. It's to play 4-6 games of x-wing in a day. Win or lose, they just want to play lots of games of this new thing they got and quite enjoy.

Hyperspace or extended is irrelevant, as new players just make lists with the ships and cards that they own. The weirdest thing about hyperspace being for newer players and more local play is that ships that come in the squadron packs for republic and CIS are not legal in the format.

7 hours ago, Sithborg said:

I mean, Hyperspace isn't perfect. The Interceptor and Defender not making it in felt odd.

But, "show up with illegal list" is a complaint for any game with formats. That only really applies to those that don't do their basic research ahead of time.

True enough. But that immediately becomes a significant barrier to entry for new(er) players, especially when they're told they can't use items they just bought in store (items which in some cases have just recently been released as well).

On 2/21/2020 at 4:40 PM, FTS Gecko said:

That's not an argument. It's not even an excuse. That's just... sad. You're effectively saying to new Republic players "Hey, you know that "starter set" you bought? You might as well just can it and buy something else, because it's going to have zero value for most of 2020".

In fact, by removing the Torrent from Hyperspace format, FFG may as well have said "Don't bother buying Guardians of the Republic for the forseeable future, because you won't be getting a game with them".

Just imaging being a brand new player and picking up the 2nd Edition Core set and a couple of the recently re-released for 2nd Edition TIE Interceptors because you love the ships, only to be told when you turn up for a game at your FLGS "Yeah, this is a Hyperspace Event. You can't fly them".

Grim.

I get your point, but I wasn't trying to make an argument OR an excuse.

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

True enough. But that immediately becomes a significant barrier to entry for new(er) players, especially when they're told they can't use items they just bought in store (items which in some cases have just recently been released as well).

So I'm a new player. I want to play bad guys. I do zero research but you know Vader, Kylo Ren and Boba are all ulimate bad guys. So I buy all three, plus Boba and Vader are even both part of the Empire in the movies, surely they can all be flown together.

I show up to a tournament. Oh no the barrier of entry.

40 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

So I'm a new player. I want to play bad guys. I do zero research but you know Vader, Kylo Ren and Boba are all ulimate bad guys. So I buy all three, plus Boba and Vader are even both part of the Empire in the movies, surely they can all be flown together.

I show up to a tournament. Oh no the barrier of entry.

That's barrier to the game, not a tournament.

I turn up to chess having done no research and want to play all queens.

Don't overegg it.

16 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

That's barrier to the game, not a tournament.

I turn up to chess having done no research and want to play all queens.

Don't overegg it.

Well that was the point I was trying to make, albeit badly.

I'm having trouble figuring out the type of person who's that much into X-Wing to buy it on the spot but not to put a minimum of research into it.

For example I started Blood Bowl recently, I went into all teams into detail, their aesthetic, their play styles and legality before I settled on one.

Just now, Flurpy said:

Well that was the point I was trying to make, albeit badly.

I'm having trouble figuring out the type of person who's that much into X-Wing to buy it on the spot but not to put a minimum of research into it.

For example I started Blood Bowl recently, I went into all teams into detail, their aesthetic, their play styles and legality before I settled on one.

If you researched it beforehand that simply means you are experienced with games that have formats or edition changes and have likely been on at least one side of a can't-field-that moment. And while the internet is terrific it can also give you analysis paralysis. Even a "minimum of research" can be quite the rabbit-hole. If it weren't we would not see the frequent repeats of what-to-get and how-does-this-work posts.

I'll play devil's advocate on the Torrent. Guardians of the Republic has been out for almost a year, making a rotation out not bad. Two of the stronger Jedi are from this pack and are still in Hyperspace, so to say you cannot use the pack is an exaggeration. Aside from the Torrent losses, Republic remains one of the cheaper buy-in factions. You can buy four expansions and get decent lists out of them. The only faction that can buy less and field a strong, proven list is Scum at three expansions (Firespray, Fang Fighter, one of the Maul expansions).

Republic still has Ric Olie, the 42-point Wonder; Broadside aka "You Can Has Ions Nao", and Obi-flipping-Wan Kenobi. Take those 3 and something else, and you have a solid, competitive list.

/enddevilsadvocate

Dropping the Torrent does seem odd, but the only other ship that I think would be in contention to drop would be the ARC-170. The Y-Wing and the N-1 are still too new, and dropping the Aethersprite would have caused tremendous hissy-fits. Losing the Torrent, isn't super huge though, and the LAAT gunship should be popping to add some variety in the near future. If they had banned Gold Squadron Trooper, it likely would have had the same effect, as no one is complaining about not having Kickback, Axe, or whoever. But dropping a ship gives parity with the other factions.

43 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

If they had banned Gold Squadron Trooper, it likely would have had the same effect, as no one is complaining about not having Kickback, Axe, or whoever. But dropping a ship gives parity with the other factions.

Very strong disagree. Look what happened when they dropped the I2 ARC? Now people are flying Wolffe and Squad 7 Veteran. I would argue that most people would be flying the Blue Squadron Protector (they're way better than you'd think, especially with the super-cheap Dedicated).

Besides, the argument isn't that it's a poor decision because "We need our Gold Torrents;" it's a poor decision because it makes irrelevant ⅔ of the contents of the big buy-in to Republic, especially for new players.

I don't really have a problem with it though. I just want to see more extended played (Prime Championships, here we go!). I really don't get why so many people on here act like Hyperspace is the only competitive format when it's still basically a 50/50 split.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

I'll play devil's advocate on the Torrent. Guardians of the Republic has been out for almost a year, making a rotation out not bad. Two of the stronger Jedi are from this pack and are still in Hyperspace, so to say you cannot use the pack is an exaggeration.

You can't use 9 of 12 pilots and 2 of 3 models in the pack.

There are eleven talents in the pack. Only 3 are good in hyperspace.

There are four missiles in the pack. You don't have any hyperspace ships in the faction that can take missiles.

There are seven modification upgrades in the pack with only 1 good in hyperspace.

Only 1 of the 2 configurations is good.

All three force powers and all four astros are good. For 19 of 64 good cards. So, yes, you can use the pack but maybe this makes cannot seem a little less exaggerated?

• 5 3 Delta-7 Aethersprite Ship Cards:
  • 1 Mace Windu
  • 1 Obi-Wan Kenobi
  • 1 Plo Koon
  • 1 Saesee Tiin
  • 1 Jedi Knight
• 9 V-19 Torrent Starfighter Ship Cards:
  • 1 "Axe"
  • 1 "Kickback"
  • 1 "Odd Ball"
  • 1 "Swoop"
  • 1 "Tucker"
  • 2 Blue Squadron Protector
  • 2 Gold Squadron Trooper
• 21 6 Talent Upgrade Cards:
  • 2 Composure
  • 2 Crack Shot
  • 2 Dedicated
  • 2 Expert Handling
  • 2 Intimidation
  • 2 Juke
  • 1 Lone Wolf
  • 2 Marksmanship
  • 2 Saturation Salvo
  • 2 Swarm Tactics
  • 2 Trick Shot
• 3 Force Power Upgrade Cards:
  • 1 Battle Meditation
  • 1 Brilliant Evasion
  • 1 Predictive Shot
• 8 Missile Upgrade Cards:
  • 2 Cluster Missiles
  • 2 Concussion Missiles
  • 2 Homing Missiles
  • 2 Proton Rockets
• 4 Astromech Upgrade Cards:
  • 1 R4 Astromech
  • 1 R4-P Astromech
  • 1 R4-P17
  • 1 R5 Astromech
• 2 1 Configuration Upgrade Cards:
  • 1 Calibrated Laser Targeting
  • 1 Delta-7B
• 12 2 Modification Upgrade Cards:
  • 2 Afterburners
  • 1 Electronic Baffle
  • 2 Munitions Failsafe
  • 1 Spare Parts Canisters
  • 1 Static Discharge Vanes
  • 2 Stealth Device
  • 3 Synchronized Console

Should I really count the talents as being "good?" The Aethersprites can't take them.

That's pretty shocking to be honest @Frimmel . It's bewildering that the Republic - as a brand new faction for 2nd edition - is seeing so many cuts to "balance" the faction for Hyperspace, especially in what was essentially marketed as a start box for the faction.

The TIE Interceptor and TIE Defender being cut from the Empire is equally baffling; certain pilots (Soontir) would be fair enough, but to blanket ban newly released ships? Do they not want to sell the models?