20 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:That's pretty shocking to be honest @Frimmel . It's bewildering that the Republic - as a brand new faction for 2nd edition - is seeing so many cuts to "balance" the faction for Hyperspace, especially in what was essentially marketed as a start box for the faction.
I was curious how bad it actually was. I thought a lot more of the upgrades were good but they're really upgrades for use on the ships you can't take.
45 minutes ago, Frimmel said:So, yes, you can use the pack but maybe this makes cannot seem a little less exaggerated?
Compared to other second edition packs that have an excluded ship or ships, yes (aside from the other Wave 3 starter pack, obv). Compare to Lando's Millenium Falcon:
3 pilots and 12 upgrades is drastically better than 0 pilots and 4 upgrades. If a new player started in 2nd Edition and picked Scum, and they bought one of each Scum Expansion, they would wouldn't be able to play 5 of their ships - the Scum Falcon, Escape Craft, Z95, YV666, and the Nashtah Pup Z95. That's $110 worth of ships that cannot be played. Compared to $28 of unplayable Republic ships. So, yes, saying the Gaurdians pack is unplayable is exaggeration.
In an attempt to keep us on topic and stay constructive, I encourage HS skeptics to invert their perspectives a bit; Hyperspace is offering new challenges to players both new and veteran, even though it might be through a different learning prism for each. Besides a curated card pool, it might be of benefit to open our pew pew minds to HOW is Hyperspace getting us out of certain comfort zones, borne of convenience or preconceived notions. More generics, with less upgrades, are being flown in the past 6 weeks probably than at anytime in the game's history. What does this mean?
It means more players are having to spend more time either preparing with or against more ships that primarily focus on the universal game truths of planning, positioning and probability.
Also just as a share; Out of our 27 players Store Championship yesterday, it was interesting to note there were only 2 two ship lists. There were also only 2 eight ship lists. Nearly a third of the tourney had 5 ship lists. 5 of 7 factions in the top 6. Lots of variety! No faction or pilot had an easy day of it!
Sunny Bounder
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zizitlo
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ronithblario
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4. FIRST ORDER 5 ship SALAD (not exact list yet, needs to be uploaded) had Phasma, Holo, Scorch as core of list though)
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Maul + Proton Bombs + Contraband Cybernetics + Hull Upgrade + Slave I
Emon Azzameen
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Dang that actually looks like a sweet event.
8 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:Dang that actually looks like a sweet event.
It was great fun. I had to judge so I didn't get to play but I found watching all the variety of lists and maneuver tactics very intriguing. I even counted total obstacles used
Strong talent there too--- nearly 1/4th of the players have/will competed/compete at Worlds.
Edited by CloakerWow. When you ban stuff from a format, players have to play with what's left. Who would have thought it?
22 minutes ago, Koing907 said:Wow. When you ban stuff from a format, players have to play with what's left. Who would have thought it?
Seems like a lot of swarm spam there - named pilots and aces definitely under represent ed. Quantity being the new quality in Hyperspace?
It will sell a lot of ships, I guess (just not the ones that have been blacklisted!)
2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:Seems like a lot of swarm spam there - named pilots and aces definitely under represent ed. Quantity being the new quality in Hyperspace?
It will sell a lot of ships, I guess (just not the ones that have been blacklisted!)
Well quantity is a quality all its own. Looks the exact opposite of imagination and risk taking to me in those top lists.
40 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:Seems like a lot of swarm spam there - named pilots and aces definitely under represent ed. Quantity being the new quality in Hyperspace?
It will sell a lot of ships, I guess (just not the ones that have been blacklisted!)
I mean, it was clear that they were taking a scalpel to aces. While also tinkering with some of the popular ace lists.
What I learned from my Store Champs was FO is very popular. 4 out of my 6 matches were against a First Order Ace + 4 buddies. No Boba or CIS made the cut. One out of two 5X made it into cut. Top Cut was 5X (Will Barnickel), 6 Strikers (Tyler Tippett), 4 JM5K (Marcel Manzano), XBB (Me), and then 4 FO Ace + 4 buddies.
Edited by 5050Saint42 minutes ago, Frimmel said:Well quantity is a quality all its own. Looks the exact opposite of imagination and risk taking to me in those top lists.
Well I'm certainly not one to com.ent on imagination in list building or lack thereof, but let's face it, if I was playing in a Hyperspace event this weekend I'd be flying FIVE. CARTEL. MARAUDERS er I mean five Blue Squadron Escorts.
It's surprising to see so many people now adopting a similar approach, though.
I will say this, the NEW Hyperspace format has opened my eyes to new options in list crafting. For the longest time I've been running Wedge, Norra, and Thane.
Since the change, I've been using Luke, and also tweaked Norra to fit the new Hyperspace parameters.
In short, I, like so many others, have grown comfortable with certain Hyperspace lists. Now, we have to adapt to the changes to continue playing.
15 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:Plenty? There's these little things called "Gaming Stores", don't know if they have them in your area? They can run events pretty regularly - my local store has X-Wing nights twice a week, for example. Naturally they also stock 2nd Edition X-Wing product, and they usually fly using the Hyperspace format. And as these events are held at the store, surprise surprise, you get a lot of people showing interest and wondering how they can get involved.
Now imagine the confusion when a prospective, interested new player is looking through what's on the shelf, only to be told if they want to join in the day's flying they can't fly this, can't fly that, can"y use this upgrade, that pilot etc.
Yeah, we have a few gaming stores, and we've had plenty of new players showing up, but the first thing they do is wander over to a table and ask about the game. I've never seen a player rock up at a tournament as their first point of entry into the game.
15 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:In any case, we're not talking about "being competitive" - we're talking about a prospective new player just wanting to get involved and play the game out of the box with minimum fuss or direction, with what they can currently buy at their local store. And from that point of view, Extended is now a more newcomer friendly format that Hyperspace.
That is precisely my point - neither of us is expecting new players to jump into the competitive scene immediately. They are going to buy a core set and a few ships, learn the game, have some fun, and then some time later maybe they will be thinking about coming to a tournament. Competitive formats (hyperspace OR extended) aren't important to brand new players.
When a new player finally does want to become competitive, that's when I think hyperspace is a better format (because there's a lower buy-in and they aren't going to get whomped by a heavily-optimised wombo-combo list).
Your point about playing games with ships that are on the shelves at the LGS is a good one - if a new player can buy a list off the shelf right away, that's ideal. I think that goal is actually more achievable for the hyperspace format, because stores only need to stock (and FFG only needs to print) a relatively narrow range of products at any one time. FFG have a bit of a way to go before they can get their supply chain running smoothly enough for that, though.
These boards have always been an echo chamber. And pretty inbred with the US podcasts, echoing even more.
Right now the theme is " Hyperspace Hallelujah [Lordi Riff]"
Dare you who dissents.
Also, none of the Hyperspace aherents would admit, that the early arguments (1.5-2 years ago) about formats were right in their prediction that differents formats will divide, and some format will clearly be less played. Which is what you see right now. Also the early argument, that FFG takes the easy way out of balance problems by not caring about the correct adjustment, but instead just ban certain ships in one format. Which is not a solution for the other format.
I early said, the current HS ship selection is lopsided.
And I early said, wth why is it again Boba and the Fangs getting discounts, and being legal, ships which have been in the upper 25% for 2 years now. There is so much more, more interesting stuff in Scum.
You are met by such factual, objective, razor sharp arguments like " The only truth is that whatever they did somebody would complain about it."
Also, "what is in the cut, the cut is not only Boba", is a bit of a blunt measurement, and applies to the top players, they get around to the interesting squads. The others still have to wade through heaps of Bobas. [Boba here as one example, insert other problem for Boba, if you think he is no problem]
"Extended is memes and misery", "Hyperspace has no BS" let's see, what is Deuterium Power cells, Slave 1, and I would say we still have not seen the full power of the Baron pack, that is going to be miserable.
Anyways, wait 6 more weeks, then people will start again "Summon new points" and complain about HS being stale due to restricted number of ships. The echo chamber will play a new tune then.
5 minutes ago, Managarmr said:Also the early argument, that FFG takes the easy way out of balance problems by not caring about the correct adjustment, but instead just ban certain ships in one format. Which is not a solution for the other format.
FFG made plenty of points adjustment to the extended format. For example, the rebels got 39 changes to extended-only points in the latest update (and 16 changed to hyperspace points). I don't think you can say they "took the easy way out".
However, extended has an inherent problem: as the pool of ships grows, the meta must either stagnate or power creep. If new ships enter roughly on-par with the strength of existing ships, the meta remains roughly the same as it was. If new ships are consistently more powerful, then power creep means the old ships become unplayably bad (see: 1.0). You might also argue that FFG can use points updates to shake things up, but with an ever-growing pool of ships you still have the same problem: either you make adjustments to balance everything perfectly (stagnation) or you make a certain group of ships much stronger or weaker in each update (power creep, effectively).
Right now, the extended meta is taking the stagnation route, which I think everyone agrees is preferable to power creep. The means that extended is a little boring (sear swarm has sat on top for a very long time now) but it also means that it's reasonably well balanced and there are many strong squads that you can play. I am very happy with extended in this state because it is a lot of fun to play, especially when I'm after a less serious game with a scum jank list, and there is a wide variety of lists that I can play with a decent amount of success. For serious competitive play, though, extended is likely to get pretty dull in the long term because so little changes over time. That's why I like hyperspace: it is dramatically different with each rotation! I love list-building and figuring out new solutions to the format constraints.
8 minutes ago, Managarmr said:And I early said, wth why is it again Boba and the Fangs getting discounts, and being legal, ships which have been in the upper 25% for 2 years now. There is so much more, more interesting stuff in Scum.
FFG want Boba on tables, because that's how they sell the game. I'm not a Boba player (and indeed I lost the final of my most recent trial against Boba) but I have no complaints with him. Slave I is a bit cheap now, but Boba is a fun ship to fly and fly against imo. I appreciate that many players don't feel this way, that's just my opinion.
Boba isn't the only thing that got discounted in scum, though - take a look at the scyks, they are great.
Fair. I am not saying, HS is bad. But it irks me, that a lot of posters here behave like HS is the
Holy Grail
and
Thou shallst not critizise your GOD"
Zizi is not power creep? Or the Baron dial? Both are in HS. They still have not adressed the Spam Phantom or Starviper issues, or the general "high Ini gets not only high Ini, but even amazing abilities, and is too cheap" problem, as well as the passive mod Force problem. Granted they have pushed up the lower generics, but that actually kills off the lists with medium Ini lynchpin support ships, cause you cannot expect your support to survive, due to all the incoming generic firepower.
Anyways, I guess I just wait and see. I am looking forward to summer.
31 minutes ago, gadwag said:- take a look at the scyks, they are great.
Believe me, I tried to make Scyks work since they appeared in 1st ed. I am pretty happy to see them go down (although Serissu going compatively 4pts up is not funny. Defensive buffs are never as strong as offensive buffs (e.g. Howl or Sinker). And taking Proach out, leaves only Serrisu as the only non-Fang and non-CS31 with high Ini). I have actually 7 Scyks, and 3MGTs and have tried mixed Scyk/MGT swarms before last points update. They are stronger now, but I doubt that a Scyk or MGT or Scyk+MGT swarm will be able to punch through Boba+something.
12 minutes ago, Managarmr said:"high Ini gets not only high Ini, but even amazing abilities, and is too cheap" problem.
To be fair Vonreg got the highest Init but the weakest ability of the TIE/Ba pilots.
3 hours ago, mcgreag said:To be fair Vonreg got the highest Init but the weakest ability of the TIE/Ba pilots.
Honestly, the feel of the TIE/Ba pilots has been that they are fairly balanced pointwise for me. Maybe Ember should drop a point, since I will always take Holo at 2 points more. Dueterium at 9 points matches R2's and must be done during the system phase, weakening it a bit. Overall, the ship feels balanced.
18 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:It will sell a lot of ships, I guess (just not the ones that have been blacklisted!)
I’m pretty sure that was the entire point of this hyperspace season: how can we get veteran players who converted to buy more of the same ships they already have that we reprinted. The ships that sold well enough on their own got removed from the format or were left alone, and some that needed just a bit of incentive to add one more naked chassis got the points change needed: t65 and tie FO were the two obvious examples, though I’d argue the lowering of most generics was to promote the same.
7 hours ago, Managarmr said:"Hyperspace has no BS"
Just like the people saying "But teH BobA is beAtaBlE", you're attacking an argument no one is making.
No one is saying Hyperspace is the perfect format, but that it is a better and more fun format than extended is.
22 hours ago, Cloaker said:Also just as a share; Out of our 27 players Store Championship yesterday, it was interesting to note there were only 2 two ship lists. There were also only 2 eight ship lists. Nearly a third of the tourney had 5 ship lists. 5 of 7 factions in the top 6. Lots of variety! No faction or pilot had an easy day of it!
Wow, thats the same number of players and two of the same lists I faced this weekend. What are the odds?
Seriously, good event man. Was lots of fun and well run.
2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:I’m pretty sure that was the entire point of this hyperspace season: how can we get veteran players who converted to buy more of the same ships they already have that we reprinted.
In part necessary because the transition from 1.0 to 2.0 was so customer friendly! I think that's worth pointing out. And, unlike the transition from 1.0 to 2.0, you don't have to get the new things . Hyperspace is also incredibly well balanced - where the notable exception is a two ship list!
These two facts alone make most money grab accusation very hollow.
On 2/21/2020 at 3:58 PM, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:I think it's also notable that Separatists have an extremely low turn-out on averagenever seen FO win those matches...
Just quoting because by Frith, I love that username!
15 hours ago, Managarmr said:Fair. I am not saying, HS is bad. But it irks me, that a lot of posters here behave like HS is the Holy Grail and Thou shallst not critizise your GOD"
A reasonable complaint. The forums aren't the greatest place for nuanced discussion.
15 hours ago, Managarmr said:Zizi is not power creep? Or the Baron dial? Both are in HS.
Nah, neither of those are power creep. The Zizi has a powerful ability, but it's only relevant if she's getting shot at, so she doesn't work in many lists. In a lot of ways, she's like laetin a'shera, who is decent but not stellar.
The baron dial is ludicrously good, and it needs to be from a thematic perspective, but the ship ability is more limiting than autothrusters on the interceptor/silencer. It's also not a cheap ship to fly.
15 hours ago, Managarmr said:They still have not adressed the Spam Phantom or Starviper issues, or the general "high Ini gets not only high Ini, but even amazing abilities, and is too cheap" problem, as well as the passive mod Force problem. Granted they have pushed up the lower generics, but that actually kills off the lists with medium Ini lynchpin support ships, cause you cannot expect your support to survive, due to all the incoming generic firepower.
I think the spacing of prices between generics has actually improved a lot since the last points update, with many generics going down and aces staying roughly the same. I'm not very familiar with the extended meta at the moment though. Passive force mods are not going away - force is something that FFG (and possibly disney) want to be in the game, so it's here to stay.
15 hours ago, Managarmr said:Believe me, I tried to make Scyks work since they appeared in 1st ed. I am pretty happy to see them go down (although Serissu going compatively 4pts up is not funny. Defensive buffs are never as strong as offensive buffs (e.g. Howl or Sinker). And taking Proach out, leaves only Serrisu as the only non-Fang and non-CS31 with high Ini). I have actually 7 Scyks, and 3MGTs and have tried mixed Scyk/MGT swarms before last points update. They are stronger now, but I doubt that a Scyk or MGT or Scyk+MGT swarm will be able to punch through Boba+something.
Serissu is definitely too expensive, but she's not that amazing anyway. The scyks are very efficient after the last points update. I've been running SOTL's scyks and it's a beast of a list:
Execute Order Sixty Scyks (200pts)
Cartel Spacer (Tractor Beam) x2
Cartel Spacer (Ion Cannon) x2
Zealous Recruit x2
Boba/Fenn is a toughish matchup, because it's one of the few lists that can consistently kill a scyk every turn, but I still favour the scyks because of the weight of firepower. I lost to Fenn/Boba/Sunny because my opponent flew his pants off (and sunny adds a lot, bringing extra firepower and a durable blocker to the fight).
A little speculation on my part. I like many others here no doubt had a pretty long time in M:tG. And if there's any parallel to good this format is being worked, a Magic 'Block' may be a good example.
For those unfamiliar, a block (with rare deviation from the following structure) is all the releases for a one year cycle that are part of the main line. Supporting those releases will in modern times be a few small and more niche options, even 'joke' sets. A block, technically, starts with a purpose designed new user friendly core set to attract new players. Then moves to the next story arc three set series that is it's own contained thing that builds in complexity and structure throughout the cycle. Then, reset, and you get a new core.
It could well go for X-wing the same way. Every year the reset button is the slim down to a new starting 'core'. What we have now, for instance. Then the new content is added over the year and the game grows and develops and the community is nurtured up through the ranks. And then in the next year, reset. Back to a thinned down, but accessible to the uninitiated, core set. And we begin again.
What Hyperspace is now, is not what is going to be in say six months with a wave or two. It's already been handed it's first expansion of the year with the card packs. I'm excited to see what this Hyperspace 'season' will bring, and how it ends. And I'm even excited to see what next season will have to start with and start a new cycle.