I like the Force. Just not as it exists in X-wing right now. To that end, as you do, like many others I took a shot at a reimagining of it.

My design goals were to make the resource-to-effect still matter consistently turn to turn, use the Force upgrade slot more heavily, and raise the flavor level on specific ideas in the Force like traditions and aspects of those traditions.

As a guide post, I lean on what the mechanic already did, and mostly worked on separating it's effects into more individual components.

I'm not anything more them someone playing in the sandbox. This is just what I came up with...

**************

Force as a statistic and token inherently do nothing proactive, only reactive. The standard effect is now to use a Force to 'Counter' another Force effect. After all, just because someone is strong in the Force doesn't give them experience and total control of it, that will be moved to the upgrade slot with flavor cues. However, in good thematic flavor, the Force can help a untrained sensitive to resist the powers of a trained one. Like Luke being difficult to Target by Vader, Yoda and Dooku countering each other in Force capability, or Rey resisting Ren's Force-interogate. So a 'counter' effect is used. This may also help to balance the Force in terms of usability and oppressive effect.

Upgrades will more heavily use a format of design that relies on a "Tradition-Aspect" or more limited and rare "Force Talent" nature. Best explained through example. The game already used this, but for my edit we lean on it a lot more. First a "Force Talent":

[Prescient Agility, (Force upgrade, 3/4/5pts scales with agility) When defending, you may spend 1 Force to reroll 1 defense die.]

This would be like 'lil Ani being a pod racer. The reroll keeps the effect a bit wild, or untrained, but it represents a definite edge at the same time. It's a talent, but not a skill. Next a "Tradition-Aspect". Here's where I lean on the original a lot:

[Jedi Teachings (Force upgrade, Light Side, Xpts) When defending, you may spend 1 Force to convert one (Focus) to a (evade), or reroll one blank result.]

Because a Jedi only uses the Force for knowledge and defense. So they get the defense side of the old effect. Their training gives them an edge in consistency, but in dire situations they can still reroll wildly. Other upgrades would be named in the same vein like : Jedi Sense, Jedi Mind Trick.

Dark side gets the offense side:

[Sith Teachings (Force upgrade, Dark Side, Xpts) When attacking you may spend 1 Force to convert one (focus) to a (hit) or reroll one attack die.]

Then they get things like Sith Hate, Sith Manipulation, and what not.

And remember, all those effects could be countered!:

[Standard Force Effect: When a player spends a Force point to activate an effect, any opponent may spend 1 Force point to cancel the effect before it is resolved.]

Intentionally I left this without much restriction on when it can be used, so that other effects could be designed to use enhanced versions as long as certain conditions are met. This also opens the board to just having a Sensitive around as a counter source, balancing out the nature a bit of risk and reward.

There's the concept in a nut shell. It's got problems, but was an interesting thought exercise to jog the Wednesday blues away.

5 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

I like the Force. Just not as it exists in X-wing right now. To that end, as you do, like many others I took a shot at a reimagining of it.

My design goals were to make the resource-to-effect still matter consistently turn to turn, use the Force upgrade slot more heavily, and raise the flavor level on specific ideas in the Force like traditions and aspects of those traditions.

As a guide post, I lean on what the mechanic already did, and mostly worked on separating it's effects into more individual components.

I'm not anything more them someone playing in the sandbox. This is just what I came up with...

**************

Force as a statistic and token inherently do nothing proactive, only reactive. The standard effect is now to use a Force to 'Counter' another Force effect. After all, just because someone is strong in the Force doesn't give them experience and total control of it, that will be moved to the upgrade slot with flavor cues. However, in good thematic flavor, the Force can help a untrained sensitive to resist the powers of a trained one. Like Luke being difficult to Target by Vader, Yoda and Dooku countering each other in Force capability, or Rey resisting Ren's Force-interogate. So a 'counter' effect is used. This may also help to balance the Force in terms of usability and oppressive effect.

Upgrades will more heavily use a format of design that relies on a "Tradition-Aspect" or more limited and rare "Force Talent" nature. Best explained through example. The game already used this, but for my edit we lean on it a lot more. First a "Force Talent":

[Prescient Agility, (Force upgrade, 3/4/5pts scales with agility) When defending, you may spend 1 Force to reroll 1 defense die.]

This would be like 'lil Ani being a pod racer. The reroll keeps the effect a bit wild, or untrained, but it represents a definite edge at the same time. It's a talent, but not a skill. Next a "Tradition-Aspect". Here's where I lean on the original a lot:

[Jedi Teachings (Force upgrade, Light Side, Xpts) When defending, you may spend 1 Force to convert one (Focus) to a (evade), or reroll one blank result.]

Because a Jedi only uses the Force for knowledge and defense. So they get the defense side of the old effect. Their training gives them an edge in consistency, but in dire situations they can still reroll wildly. Other upgrades would be named in the same vein like : Jedi Sense, Jedi Mind Trick.

Dark side gets the offense side:

[Sith Teachings (Force upgrade, Dark Side, Xpts) When attacking you may spend 1 Force to convert one (focus) to a (hit) or reroll one attack die.]

Then they get things like Sith Hate, Sith Manipulation, and what not.

And remember, all those effects could be countered!:

[Standard Force Effect: When a player spends a Force point to activate an effect, any opponent may spend 1 Force point to cancel the effect before it is resolved.]

Intentionally I left this without much restriction on when it can be used, so that other effects could be designed to use enhanced versions as long as certain conditions are met. This also opens the board to just having a Sensitive around as a counter source, balancing out the nature a bit of risk and reward.

There's the concept in a nut shell. It's got problems, but was an interesting thought exercise to jog the Wednesday blues away.

This is a lot of words to just say 'take away the standard use of the Force token, make the attack and defend options separate upgrade cards and restrict one to Light Side and one to Dark'.

I think it's interesting, but I don't agree that restricting spending a Force on an attack roll to Dark Side only is 'thematic'. Yes, Jedi use the Force 'for knowledge and defence' - but included in that 'defence' umbrella is definitely the option to use the Force to guide an attacking swing of a lightsaber, or to line up a shot in a starfighter. Let's not forget that only the second time we see a lightsaber on screen, Obi-Wan is using it to cut someone's arm off.

Likewise, the idea that Darth Vader can't use the Force to help him pull off wild evasive maneuvers and dodge shots in his TIE is silly too.

I just think splitting them would unfairly imbalance the two. Luke becomes significantly de-powered with this change, and I don't think he's anything like too strong. Mostly because defensive bonuses and abilities are usually extremely limited.

In addition, you're really not offering much incentive to use other Force upgrades here. If it's choice between something like Battle Meditation or getting a free calculate on attack every single round, I'm taking the free calculate every single time. The current standard effect of a Force token will always be the strongest, most reliable use. Making that into specific upgrades just means those upgrades will be stapled on and nothing else will get used.

I actually do agree that the Force as is is a shade too strong, and that with some of the pilots they're either really good or costed into uselessness - no middle ground. I also agree there's no reason to use most of the Force upgrades.

I think the solution is way, way simpler though. Just make it so that you can only spend one Force token per dice roll. It doesn't change much - in general, you're probably only spending one per roll anyway. But it does stop the wild spikes, and the annoying lack of need for focus tokens.

This would also make cards like Brilliant Evasion way more useful. Instinctive Aim becomes much more useful to any 2+ Force user as now you don't care about that extra spend, because you couldn't have spent it on the attack itself anyway.

Letting you spend a Force token to counter someone else's Force token is really bad too. It heavily penalises any list that doesn't bring a Force user in case your opponent has a Force user. In terms of gameplay, I don't like it all.

@GuacCousteau nothing about it as a concept piece precludes the notion that the two sides wouldn't get access to the opposite effects. Just that they would need a different card, with a different effect, to represent that, at a appropriate cost. Only the concept cards listed show the split.

Indeed you could have 'Sith Endurance' be a way for them to turn Force into defense. Or 'Jedi Precision' to convert Force to offense.

The goal with the system was to make it so you had to pick which to take, and pay appropriately. No cake and eating it too.

Just something to consider in your musings.

I think the biggest issue with the force (at least mine) is that you can spend any number of force charges during attack and defense. Even though some charge effects have you spend multiple charges sometimes, there's still only a single effect (eg. Chewie crew - spend two charges to repair 1 faceup damage). With force, you can spend two (or more) charges and get two (or more) altered results. Gaining multiple benefits rather than a single one is what makes it so powerful. I know a single focus token changes all focus results, but there was an action cost to get that token. With force, it's always there and they still get their action. Personally, I think Force charge use should be limited to one during attack and one during defense. No limit on how many can be spent in a turn, but in any one given circumstance there should only be one effect.

Edit: Beat me to it. But I agree.

3 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

I think the solution is way, way simpler though. Just make it so that you can only spend one Force token per dice roll. It doesn't change much - in general, you're probably only spending one per roll anyway. But it does stop the wild spikes, and the annoying lack of need for focus tokens.

I also think there was a missed opportunity in not making force upgrades tiered with weaker or stronger effects based on how many force charges you use. This would make mediocre abilities stronger with more powerful force users, and provide distinction between force users of different strengths.

Two examples:

Brilliant Evasion:

Tier 1 - If you are not in the attacker's bullseye, you may spend 1 force charge to change 2 focus results to evade results

Tier 2 - If you are not in the attacker's bullseye, you may spend 2 force charges to change 1 blank and 1 focus results to evade results.

Tier 3 - While you defend, you may spend 3 force charges to add an evade result to your defense dice. If you are not in the attacker's bullseye you may gain a strain token to change 1 die result to an evade result.

Or:

Supernatural Reflexes:

Tier 1 - When you reveal a blue maneuver, you may spend 1 force charge to perform a boost or barrel roll action. Then if you performed an action you do not have on your action bar, suffer 1 damage.

Tier 2 - When you reveal a blue or white maneuver, you may spend 2 force charges to perform a boost or barrel roll action. Then if you performed an action you do not have on your action bar, suffer 1 damage.

Tier 3 - Before you activate, you may spend 3 force charges to perform a boost or barrel roll action. Then if you performed an action you do not have on your action bar, suffer 1 damage.

Not every force ability would need 3 tiers, and some of them wouldn't need any. But having tiered force abilities provides better distinction between powerful force users and those that are not as trained or adept. With brilliant evasion, the highest tier makes for an excellent defensive bonus, but costs 3 Force and the full effect leaves you susceptible to attack on the next round (through lack of Force and the strain token to simulate the toll it takes to exert that much power over the force). It also reigns in some of the issues with things like SuperVader - if he has to spend 3 charges to use SR before a red move, it means he's not getting extra actions for modded attacks after a k-turn or talon roll. If he wants extra actions, or mods, his moves are limited. Stronger force users have choices - in Vader's example, does he spend all his force to avoid a block and get in behind the enemy, or does he sacrifice movement for extra actions. Stronger force users have more options available to them, but only the strongest users gain access to the most powerful iteration of the ability. Importantly, the strongest abilities wouldn't be able to be used every turn, so there is an alternative balancing option to just point costing them out of the game. This would allow for some truly powerful abilities that would be limited because only a few selected force users would have the capacity to use the strongest tier, and even then only once every 3 turns at most.

I just think it's a missed opportunity with Force users and Force charges that there is no distinction between power levels other than the number of charges one gets.

My biggest issue with the force is thematic: Why is it that force users are always locking and not focusing "Use the force, Luke" "He's switched his targeting computer ON!" just seems super backwards to me while simultaneously being way too consistent since both persist round-over-round.

Simple, elegant solution:

Standard force effect

Light side – You may spend one force charge to re-roll one green die.

Dark side – You may spend one force charge to re-roll one red die.

Or you could just allow a force charge to be a re-roll. No big difference as far as I'm concerned anyway. Still I like that re-rolls are less deterministic (sometimes you'll spend the force and get nothing for it which would be a good change IMO rather than always knowing force = desired result ). Plus you can't lock and save it round over round; you'll have to focus (you know, like an actual force user).

Funny thing here; suddenly the worst force abilities (brilliant evasion, instinctive aim, etc) get actually a bit better. Even Predictive Shot becomes desirable on light side force users as it is the only simple way to leverage the force when you aren't defending. Fifth Brother gains some versatility to be sure, but it certainly doesn't break him as he has to choose between the more generically useful re-roll and the more powerful and consistent focus > crit, and he still doesn't work on defense (depending which interpretation you choose).

IDK mainly just spitballing something I heard suggested elsewhere. I don't mind a standard dice-mod-based force effect. I mainly dislike how extremely, deterministically consistent it is; you always get what you want from the force. And I equally dislike the anti-thematic nature of inquisitors, jedi, etc. constantly locking, locking, locking, never focusing.

Edit: Just noticed the way I worded it was vague; it doesn't strictly say while you are attacking or while you are defending. Wasn't what I meant but makes me wonder; what if you could also use it to change your opponent's rolls? Ehhhh, actually I don't like that idea.

I would be on board with the "standard" Force charge use granting a reroll instead of a focus to hit/evade. I still think it should be limited to a single charge spent per attack/defense. Leave that as the standard, and introduce force abilities that allow for added benefits (as a possible example - Force Mastery - when you spend a Force charge you may reroll up to two dice).

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Or you could just allow a force charge to be a re-roll. No big difference as far as I'm concerned anyway. Still I like that re-rolls are less deterministic (sometimes you'll spend the force and get nothing for it which would be a good change IMO rather than always knowing force = desired result ). Plus you can't lock and save it round over round; you'll have to focus (you know, like an actual force user).

This is actually what I came up with as a thought exercise. Re-rolls keep force always potentially useful, but not a known quantity. I also think it does make more thematic sense that a focused force user is the most powerful, rather them currently taking a TL for the best offensive potential.

I haven't extensively tested this theory though, so it may actually be too good in some situation, but I can't immediately see how or where.

EDIT: Going this direction does favor red dice over green obviously, which may or may not be a bad thing. Something to consider at least

My issue with Force tokens is that they're "action economy proof". In that you don't have to take an action to gain a dice mod effect. Your ship can bump or execute a red manuver and still get to spend Force. The only severe limitations is that you only regen 1 Force per turn, and they function like Calculate instead of Focus. (But getting to spend multiple Force per die roll mitigates that.)

IMO one of the biggest mistakes in 2nd edition.

team "you only regen force when you perform a focus action" gang squad

i don't like dark side getting red dice modification, since red dice are better than green, though granted you can always make dark side force users more expensive.

I like to try and be inclusive of everyone, so I'll tag you as I get the chance to, and of course go in order of appearance if I can.

@Unit34 it is a bit odd that they don't have more to do with the cost-to-effect ratio. Even just having an effect that is like "spend 1 Force, do a boost or Barrell. Spend 2 and it can be the second time you've done that action this round". Getting a 'reach' ability on the base effect, essentially a two tier system on the card. I imagine that's hard to price after it's in the wild. Also, text box real estate is a big factor here, the text still had to fit. With the concept I shared, some of the intent was that different cards could represent the different tiers your looking for. Like Jedi Evasion, a tradition-aspect card, could be a stronger more expensive version of an imaginary Force-talent cards like 'Prescient Agility'. So you would have tiers that way, but not single cards with clumsy catch-all price tags.

@ClassicalMoser you phrase it well, I feel I've had the same problem too. Like in my N-1 experiments, Lil Ani never focuses, which I was kinda perplexed by as well. But also in those experiments I learned just how little the number of results that get converted by Force is over one. Padme would keep getting into these cases like, okay you can only spend one, then the Force user is like okay, lock reroll, convert... One... Yahtzee? And Padme is useless. Especially on defense rolls they most often seem to just get one. Not that they never get multiple, but if they do it's almost better since it will deplete their supply next round and all anyway. But really it's not even the multiple conversion thing to me. But definitely some of the consistency is my problem too.

Not to mention, I've been in the Force gets reroll camp for awhile too. But as I've spent time thinking about it in the grand scheme, I am no longer sure that's right. I think that's just an obvious surface level snap reaction. Hence why I haven't stopped mulling it around lol. More on that as I get into it below.

I like your version of the standard effect a lot though, unedited. When I was dreaming up this concept I thought to make it worth it, you might actually have to price the tradition card at 0 so it wasn't a tax to get the 'core' benefit. Yours just applies it. I also like the unrestricted nature of it because then it interacts with other things. Like, Luke on a Falcon with Lando, can reroll the Lando dice. Or Kylo slipping through a obstacle can reroll the penalty. It has merit.

@Koing907 @svelok couldn't say it better myself. Stay with me, coming back to this as well.

@Dezlin exactly so.

Bringing it all together now. Yeah, the problems with Force are faceted. We all get that. Any change would require some other change. Part of why this weird thread came about was looking into how do you divorce all the components away so you can work with them individually? Part of the 2.0 design was to eliminate the heavy passive mods, and to also install ways to tweak the games 'levers' as it went. So I was exploring ways to try the same thing.

Maybe some of you have mused about the Force being basically the games magic system. Duh, right? The catch there is most magic systems in games only function when there's also a 'counter' system, Or at least a difficulty check roll. 40k, as a fairly common reference point, has both for instance. And in that game it was such a part of the core experience they over time they had to take some of the 'non-magic' play options like the Tau and Black Templars and inject them with an interaction point or a stand in system. My approach, though blunt, was to just add a counter rule. My old thought as well as many of yours was to give it the reroll, which is really just a difficulty check roll, or test. We're after the same thing in the end.

And that's why I enjoy dissecting this particular mechanic. It's at a quandary with itself with how do you balance the 'magic', make it interactive to all the game components, and still capture the theme with familiar things you've already used to establish those themes?

Go figure, balancing the Force is a monumental task for heroes, not me.

Using the few bits thrown out here so far I see another way. Our issues are:

-it's too consistent

-it's action economy, while not interacting with action economy

With those in mind, like I was trying to explain that I don't really prescribe to this anymore, just a reroll doesn't really work. Because then instead of invalidating the focus action, your just invalidating Target lock instead, or anything else that's a reroll with the other wise good rule that each die can only get rolled twice. In it's convenient application it partly just flips the problem over.

And then I think about what is a magic system at it's most basic? It's a way to get something from nothing. And if you can access that, you just 'get' the benefits of it. It's just there, so there is a innate consistency of sorts to it. Like Obi said, it surrounds us, penetrates us, binds the Galaxy together. So is there a way to get something from nothing, that doesn't get you a guarantee, and already allows you to use other effects without overlapping?

I think there's a way. X-wing dice are weird in that they work like a TRInary computer. Off, on, and... Not on. So what if you just converted an off result, to a not on result? Blank to Eyes. Rerolls still work on the die, you still need the action focus to make it work, but you do get something consistent that was not there before. It's something you can expect, but it might not be enough. You still use the eye/focus iconography that's been the theme cue. And it puts a lot of pressure on generating a focus token so you can actually use the Force, which is pretty darn thematic as well. A Jedi who had lost focus generally gets killed after all.

It's just a half tick back on the effect. But it sits the Force as being in that gap. If you just reach out, search your feelings...

2 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Because then instead of invalidating the focus action, your just invalidating Target lock instead, or anything else that's a reroll with the other wise good rule that each die can only get rolled twice.

This is the only bit I a think I disagree with. You definitely still need locks for missiles/torps and a lot of other abilities. For example, a generic inquisitor will want the lock for a 3-die attack 7th and 5th would prefer lock/fcs since they have the action economy and can get more punch for their force usage elsewhere. Actually, many force abilities become better than a single reroll because they’re something a rolled die inherently can’t be: consistent.

2 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

I think there's a way. X-wing dice are weird in that they work like a TRInary computer. Off, on, and... Not on. So what if you just converted an off result, to a not on result? Blank to Eyes. Rerolls still work on the die, you still need the action focus to make it work, but you do get something consistent that was not there before. It's something you can expect, but it might not be enough. You still use the eye/focus iconography that's been the theme cue. And it puts a lot of pressure on generating a focus token so you can actually use the Force, which is pretty darn thematic as well. A Jedi who had lost focus generally gets killed after all.

I liked the idea at first, but then I realized it’s mathematically superior to advanced optics with focus and to TL/Focus. It only works when focused but the consistency is pretty disgusting. It’s like an always-on free evade token that also works on attacks.

I’d rather not have my Jedi running around in TIE Defenders...

No, I still think the single re-roll is the happy thematic and mechanical medium. It’s always on, but it only works ¾ of the time, or ½ the time if you’re stressed or blocked.

Bonus: Boba/Maul becomes a nonbo. And RAC/Vader gets MUCH better.

Way back in 1E, I had a conversation about how to implement the force and the gist of it was that the force should allow you to do things that a normal pilot just cannot do in that particular chassis. Like performing a red maneuver while stressed, barrel rolling over an obstacle, increasing the speed of a chosen maneuver, etc. I get why FFG went with the simple focus lite mechanic with the force, but I feel like there was more space to work with when it comes to force powers. The big problem now is they can't release rule bending force upgrade cards because of the built in action economy that the force provides. SR is a prime example of this. Its basically been costed out of useableness because otherwise its fairly broken with some pilots.

Anyway... just some musings.

@ClassicalMoser if you leave it as a reroll you'd still have 75% chance attack dice, and you still don't interact with the action system to potentially disgusting gains. You block them, they still get a lock equivalent, that works on defense, with no dictated target. They're stressed, still get the benefit of Super Heroic on occasion, without working for it at all or chance of not triggering. And if they have the action focus to support the reroll, they may end up not using it anyway since the reroll top gain is straight positive, getting to keep the focus.

Consider if you leave it just reroll, that would be a non space restricted Lone Wolf, with up to three charges, and Hate could recharge it. It's free FCS that doesn't require an action to start, AND free Elusive with shared charges that regenerate on it's own without a required move, combined. I think we'd stop calling it free Forc-ulate, and call it Force control system instead. Or much to Dave Filoni's chagrin, Force Wolves. Which I admit, at least would be more fun to say then Forc-ulate 😅 😂

Since I get the sense you and I are alike in our desire to have theme represented, consider this too. If it's just a reroll, then what does Vader X1 with FCS gain? Not much except a... Free... Force? For attack only if he gets the lock? Shouldn't the system, or the AO upgrade, be insignificant compared to the power of the Force anyway?

I'm here thinking about a Ghost with Ezra and Saw. Do I want it to have to always pay the pain to Saw for Ezra's Force, or do I want Ezra to get a chance to just get lucky, and Saw can just sit in the back until needed?

All this is really just to get to the point of if it's just a reroll, we haven't bought the mechanic back into interaction with the action system. You just open it to favorable variance, no work required still. And from some of the things I see people say, that's a lot of the problem. They can't touch it. So to me, if you can't solve that with a rider clause on the reroll, then I believe the rewrite has failed. Further, back in theme, when does a Jedi reached for the Force, and it NOT be there? How is it thematic to be able to whiff the Force?

@Jo Jo I thought that's what it was going to be too back in those days. Especially when the passive mods were thankfully missing from 2.0. like Bananakin fits that bill.

If they limited force to being spent once per round, I could see more force powers being taken, for something to do with your extra charges.

4 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

@ClassicalMoser if you leave it as a reroll you'd still have 75% chance attack dice, and you still don't interact with the action system to potentially disgusting gains. You block them, they still get a lock equivalent, that works on defense, with no dictated target.

Not quite a lock equivalent: it's still only one per force charge. Mathematically, in a vacuum, lock and focus are equivalent on offense, just as calculate and a single re-roll would be on a single die. Of course, in reality Lock has the advantage of lasting multiple rounds whereas focus has the advantage of spending on defense.

The difference in this case is that, as the force currently stands, you will always know whether using it will be the "correct" choice or not. You will never spend it and get nothing for it, and there's no opportunity cost for having it available like there is for a focus or lock. I would contend that if you're going to have something un-block-able and always-on, it should be something that won't give you deterministic results and perfect-information usage.

Mathematically, let's look at the difference between single-reroll and blank-to-hit (compared with a force as-is just for fun).

It's clear that both abilities are weaker than the current effect without focus, but the incredible ease and consistency with which the ability you've proposed gets all hit or all aid results off of a focus is pretty extreme. What's more, that always happens with perfect information , especially on defense. Need 3 evade results and rolled evade-focus-blank? Just burn that force charge and focus into three evades. Only needed one? Save the force and focus for that juicy third hit on attack.

It's true that your ability wouldn't allow splitting force for one thing and focus for another, but under the re-roll that's also more or less suboptimal since re-rolling into a focus happens 1 in 4 times anyway (on both attack and defense).

Maybe it's just opinion at this point. One system ties it to action economy but makes one particular action (that's almost always the best option anyway) obscenely powerful at the cost of all other actions. The other makes it less predictable, less powerful, less perfect-information. Both incline it to focus instead of locking constantly. Either has its downfalls and would have to be priced appropriately. Either makes force-based talents and abilities better.