I heard that FFG had a guy put in jail for using a photocopied card at a tournament. I heard he was later shot and his family was billed for the bullet. 🙄 ...Sorry, wrong entity.

Why would any of you as consumers allow FFG, a TO, or Participant force you to buy extra pieces just so you'd have the extra card with universally known info to attach to a perfectly legal model? To use in low stakes events, no less. *

*If money, accommodations, or airfare is at stake, by all means show up with 1st party stuff.

The proxy card argument is a bit tangential, or its own topic, but as long as we're discussing legitimate anti-consumer practices, I say go for it.

1 minute ago, qwertyuiop said:

Why would any of you as consumers allow FFG, a TO, or Participant force you to buy extra pieces just so you'd have the extra card with universally known info to attach to a perfectly legal model? To use in low stakes events, no less. *

It's up to you. Want to participate in those tournaments, you must abide by the rules.

If you want to house-rule an tournament in your kitchen, go for it, say everyone only needs toilet paper proxies, no one cares.

But if you are doing it with any backing (either by Asmodee, FFG, or even a local store), it's obvious the "original stuff" rule will be in place, because that's how Asmodee, FFG and the stores make their money.

3 hours ago, qwertyuiop said:

I heard that FFG had a guy put in jail for using a photocopied card at a tournament. I heard he was later shot and his family was billed for the bullet. 🙄 ...Sorry, wrong entity.

Why would any of you as consumers allow FFG, a TO, or Participant force you to buy extra pieces just so you'd have the extra card with universally known info to attach to a perfectly legal model? To use in low stakes events, no less. *

*If money, accommodations, or airfare is at stake, by all means show up with 1st party stuff.

The proxy card argument is a bit tangential, or its own topic, but as long as we're discussing legitimate anti-consumer practices, I say go for it.

Because such practices are part of most major tournaments for hobby games? Miniature companies requiring you to use specifically their models is a similar restriction, as is Magic the Gathering requiring you to own copies of any individual card you want to include in your deck, despite each having "universally known information." I've also seen tournaments requiring you to bring a legally purchased copy of your army book. You have to have the information on hand pertaining to your army, and the only "official" source is the card itself. Privateer Press has a similar restriction for their tournaments, but I will admit that last I checked they do offer errata'd cards on their webpage and have an official app.

My local tournaments only enforce the letter of the Tournament rules when there is either a fair amount of money on the line, or a world's qualifier. Casual local tournaments have some minor proxy restrictions just to avoid confusion.

57 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

Again, this is a distraction from Asmodee's anti-consumer anti-FLGS policy on defective/ missing items. Of a customer loses an item that is different from having it kissing in the sealed package or having the wrong part included.

56 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Regardless, Asmodee/FFG shouldn't be responsible for you losing your cards. If you lose your car keys, you have to pay for a replacement, the dealer won't issue you a free replacement.

The main concern is stuff missing from the boxes. And while I personally have never had missing cards, I have had missing pieces.

My point about lost or stolen cards is that it is 100% on the player. If I lose a card, I will figure it out via replacement or some other method. Not an issue for me. As for something missing from a box, Asmodee/FFG should absolutely correct the issue. Has anyone experienced an issue where Asmodee told you to GTFO since this new policy dropped?

2 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

My point about lost or stolen cards is that it is 100% on the player. If I lose a card, I will figure it out via replacement or some other method. Not an issue for me. As for something missing from a box, Asmodee/FFG should absolutely correct the issue. Has anyone experienced an issue where Asmodee told you to GTFO since this new policy dropped?

Fair enough, I think I was conflating your discussion with that of someone else who was arguing Asmodee/FFG should replace lost/stolen cards.

Do you mean besides the Asmodee website for requesting replacement parts ceasing to exist?

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/customer-service/

Seems like a pretty firm GTFO to me.

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Fair enough, I think I was conflating your discussion with that of someone else who was arguing Asmodee/FFG should replace lost/stolen cards.

Do you mean besides the Asmodee website for requesting replacement parts ceasing to exist?

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/customer-service/

Seems like a pretty firm GTFO to me.

And yet there is no actual evidence of being unable to get a replacement. There are clear channels on how one goes about fixing a missing part. No where on that page does it say "Products are sold as is without exception."

If people are worried about their FLGS telling them "tough luck," then I would suggest they have a discussion around FFG/Asmodee products with their FLGS. If the FLGS no exceptions for issues, then make it known that the product will be purchased somewhere that allows for this sort of thing to be corrected. The old vote with your wallet adage comes to mind here. If the potential of getting hosed with a bad box is that big of an issue, maybe its time to look at a game from a different company that may not have this issue.

5 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

And yet there is no actual evidence of being unable to get a replacement. There are clear channels on how one goes about fixing a missing part. No where on that page does it say "Products are sold as is without exception."

My local store was told by their distributor that no replacement would be issued if the distributor was out of stock on the SKU.

So yes, it is built into the policy that the defective product won't be replaced or reconciled if the SKU is out of stock at the distributor.

The local store does not replace the item with something they have in stock. It is replaced by the distributor, but if and only if the distributor has stock.

2 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

If people are worried about their FLGS telling them "tough luck," then I would suggest they have a discussion around FFG/Asmodee products with their FLGS. If the FLGS no exceptions for issues, then make it known that the product will be purchased somewhere that allows for this sort of thing to be corrected. The old vote with your wallet adage comes to mind here. If the potential of getting hosed with a bad box is that big of an issue, maybe its time to look at a game from a different company that may not have this issue.

You are obfuscating here. The distributor determines if the product can be rectified. If the distributor is out of stock, the customer is out of luck!

Just now, Mokoshkana said:

If people are worried about their FLGS telling them "tough luck," then I would suggest they have a discussion around FFG/Asmodee products with their FLGS. If the FLGS no exceptions for issues, then make it known that the product will be purchased somewhere that allows for this sort of thing to be corrected.

As a side note, in Europe, the law is on our side though. Online orders have a 14 day return limit. On top of that there are 2 month minimum to noticing a defect, and 2 year minimum warranty, of the product working as described. A dice breaks in half, or the box is missing a piece, both the store and the manufacturer (or importer) are forced to offer a replacement or return of the value.

It's up to the consumer to chose who they'll contact, either the store or the importer/manufacturer.

34 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

And yet there is no actual evidence of being unable to get a replacement. There are clear channels on how one goes about fixing a missing part. No where on that page does it say "Products are sold as is without exception."

You mean besides people saying that their local stores won't be able to exchange the product if the distributor is out of stock, or that won't be doing the returns at all?

Quote

When they receive it, you will be able to exchange your defective copy for the new one, subject to availablity and store policy.

The point is you no longer contact Asmodee with your issues unless you buy direct . You have to take it up with the store you bought the product from and are subject to the store's policies.

29 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

If people are worried about their FLGS telling them "tough luck," then I would suggest they have a discussion around FFG/Asmodee products with their FLGS. If the FLGS no exceptions for issues, then make it known that the product will be purchased somewhere that allows for this sort of thing to be corrected. The old vote with your wallet adage comes to mind here. If the potential of getting hosed with a bad box is that big of an issue, maybe its time to look at a game from a different company that may not have this issue.

And then the store stops holding tournaments, league nights, or otherwise supporting the game because they aren't making money on it any more. They'll devote more shelf space to 40k, board games, Warmahordes, or any number of other miniatures games that ARE selling in the area, and in some cases, giving preference on table space reservations to games that they do sell.

It also isn't JUST up to the FLGS, it's up to the DISTRIBUTORS as well. The store isn't directly contacting Asmodee, they're going through a third party. If the distributors are out of stock or decide they aren't issuing replacements, then the stores as a whole are out of luck. Given how quickly Legion/FFG product sells out after the initial release, and how long it takes for reprints, it is fairly likely the distributor will be out of stock. So at best you the buyer have to wait for the distributor to get replacement stock, then request a replacement, wait for your store to get your replacement box, then actually exchange it.

Edit: AND since it's a straight swap on boxes, depending on how the request is handled (having to specify what part is missing to the distributor before making the request VS just requesting replacement product), there is a chance of the replacement ALSO missing a piece. If the store doesn't have to specify what is missing when they make the request, then it's a relatively simple matter of making one complete box out of the contents of both boxes, and the FLGS returning the box that isn't complete. If it does have to specify, now your stuck waiting YET AGAIN. I assume they won't have to specify, but there is a chance.

A bunch of whining over whats basically a normal return policy for EVERYTHING on the market.

30 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

You mean besides people saying that their local stores won't be able to exchange the product if the distributor is out of stock, or that won't be doing the returns at all?

The point is you no longer contact Asmodee with your issues unless you buy direct . You have to take it up with the store you bought the product from and are subject to the store's policies.

And then the store stops holding tournaments, league nights, or otherwise supporting the game because they aren't making money on it any more. They'll devote more shelf space to 40k, board games, Warmahordes, or any number of other miniatures games that ARE selling in the area, and in some cases, giving preference on table space reservations to games that they do sell.

It also isn't JUST up to the FLGS, it's up to the DISTRIBUTORS as well. The store isn't directly contacting Asmodee, they're going through a third party. If the distributors are out of stock or decide they aren't issuing replacements, then the stores as a whole are out of luck. Given how quickly Legion/FFG product sells out after the initial release, and how long it takes for reprints, it is fairly likely the distributor will be out of stock. So at best you the buyer have to wait for the distributor to get replacement stock, then request a replacement, wait for your store to get your replacement box, then actually exchange it.

Edit: AND since it's a straight swap on boxes, depending on how the request is handled (having to specify what part is missing to the distributor before making the request VS just requesting replacement product), there is a chance of the replacement ALSO missing a piece. If the store doesn't have to specify what is missing when they make the request, then it's a relatively simple matter of making one complete box out of the contents of both boxes, and the FLGS returning the box that isn't complete. If it does have to specify, now your stuck waiting YET AGAIN. I assume they won't have to specify, but there is a chance.

If this is such a systemic problem, it will hurt Asmodee's bottom line and they will stop making the game as they won't be able to afford the license to keep it. Seriously, what percentage of products are missing pieces? I get that this has the potential to be really inconvenient. If that potential is high enough to make you worry about it, then perhaps pick a different game. This policy does not bother me in the slightest. Adapt and overcome.

Just now, Mokoshkana said:

If this is such a systemic problem, it will hurt Asmodee's bottom line and they will stop making the product as they won't be able to afford it. Seriously, what percentage of products are missing pieces? I get that this has the potential to be really inconvenient. If that potential is high enough to make you worry about it, then perhaps pick a different game. This policy does not bother me in the slightest. Adapt and overcome.

That's the point I and others are trying to make, that is policy is short sighted and can easily lead to a decrease in sales. The main benefit Asmodee gains from this change is the ability to reduce the size of their customer support department, making the company more attractive to potential buyers.

I assume then you're one of the lucky people who have not yet received product missing parts? I've had a missing Z-6 backpack and the wrong arms for the Royal Guard in the boxes I've opened so far (and I have not opened one of every box released as a note). Other people at my store have had the wrong arms for speeder bikes/BARCs, missing droid parts, etc. Asmodee/FFG has never announced an official percentage but there have been an awful lot of posts here and on Facebook from people looking for replacement parts, so it's more than zero. The hard plastic sprues should reduce the instances of duplicate arms (two lefts and no right for a given torso), but hard plastic does occasionally suffer from miscasts, and there is the possibility of sprue duplication (depending on sprue layout, two leg sprues and no torso sprue).

My worry isn't as much about missing pieces (my FLGS will work to make things right in my experience, and I quite enjoy converting miniatures anyway so that in general is my plan going forward), but that this policy will hurt Asmodee/FFG, potentially leading to the "premature" end of Legion.

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

That's the point I and others are trying to make, that is policy is short sighted and can easily lead to a decrease in sales. The main benefit Asmodee gains from this change is the ability to reduce the size of their customer support department, making the company more attractive to potential buyers.

I assume then you're one of the lucky people who have not yet received product missing parts? I've had a missing Z-6 backpack and the wrong arms for the Royal Guard in the boxes I've opened so far (and I have not opened one of every box released as a note). Other people at my store have had the wrong arms for speeder bikes/BARCs, missing droid parts, etc. Asmodee/FFG has never announced an official percentage but there have been an awful lot of posts here and on Facebook from people looking for replacement parts, so it's more than zero. The hard plastic sprues should reduce the instances of duplicate arms (two lefts and no right for a given torso), but hard plastic does occasionally suffer from miscasts, and there is the possibility of sprue duplication (depending on sprue layout, two leg sprues and no torso sprue).

My worry isn't as much about missing pieces (my FLGS will work to make things right in my experience, and I quite enjoy converting miniatures anyway so that in general is my plan going forward), but that this policy will hurt Asmodee/FFG, potentially leading to the "premature" end of Legion.

I have been playing miniature games (Warhammer Fantasy/AoS/40k and now SW Legion) since 2014 and have never had an issue with anything other than finecast (which were just crap casts). As for legion, I haven't had any issues, nor can I recall anyone at my store having issues either.

I agree with everything you're saying, but if the Asmodee parent is trying to dump the company for a profit, that means a potential suitor is interested in buying the product in order to make money. I'd suspect the new owner is would be looking to cash in on legion/X-Wing/etc or they'd decide to kill it before the sale happens. In either case, I don't think this new customer service policy is going to have a lasting negative beyond moans and gripes from the vocal minority of players that get shafted with incorrect products.

Let me state first that I think this policy change is lousy and unfortunate. And in no way do I intend to defend a pivot to a policy that is meaningfully worse than the one the one they're moving away from.

With that said...

It strikes me as "unreasonable" to purchase something, have it unopened for a year, encounter a problem when it's opened, and expect a resolution at that time. Obviously the problem shouldn't have existed to begin with, but I think it's a reasonable expectation to think a customer would open something within, say, a month of purchase. Most return policies are within that timeframe or one close to it.

Also I have returned defective products to, say, a bookstore (I got home and realized the binding was shot) the same DAY I bought it... and my only option was either a refund which sometimes comes in the form of store credit. Major brick and mortar retailers don't always have multiples of everything and expecting that your FLGS would is just not realistic. Again I think this policy shift is worse than FFG's previous policy but I also think it's completely reasonable to assume that if I return a defective product to where it was purchased, I might only get my money back.

Again, this stinks and I don't mean to defend it, but I don't think returning something to where it was purchased and getting a refund is an unacceptable policy in general.

3 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

Let me state first that I think this policy change is lousy and unfortunate. And in no way do I intend to defend a pivot to a policy that is meaningfully worse than the one the one they're moving away from.

With that said...

It strikes me as "unreasonable" to purchase something, have it unopened for a year, encounter a problem when it's opened, and expect a resolution at that time. Obviously the problem shouldn't have existed to begin with, but I think it's a reasonable expectation to think a customer would open something within, say, a month of purchase. Most return policies are within that timeframe or one close to it.

Also I have returned defective products to, say, a bookstore (I got home and realized the binding was shot) the same DAY I bought it... and my only option was either a refund which sometimes comes in the form of store credit. Major brick and mortar retailers don't always have multiples of everything and expecting that your FLGS would is just not realistic. Again I think this policy shift is worse than FFG's previous policy but I also think it's completely reasonable to assume that if I return a defective product to where it was purchased, I might only get my money back.

Again, this stinks and I don't mean to defend it, but I don't think returning something to where it was purchased and getting a refund is an unacceptable policy in general.

So the person who has has gotten lucky enough to not have to deal with the fallout from bad quality control says those who do are the "moaning minority". I have no words. (I do, actually, but ones I shouldn't write.)

The local store is not accepting these items for refund!! They are accepting exchanges ONLY IF the distributor isn't out of stock.

Please stop saying it is ok to get a refund from the local store when that isn't even an option.

1 minute ago, SoonerTed said:

So the person who has has gotten lucky enough to not have to deal with the fallout from bad quality control says those who do are the "moaning minority".

Not even close to what I said, but thanks.

22 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

Not even close to what I said, but thanks.

Please clarify, then, on how we might get refunds when it's not part of the new policy.

25 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

I have been playing miniature games (Warhammer Fantasy/AoS/40k and now SW Legion) since 2014 and have never had an issue with anything other than finecast (which were just crap casts). As for legion, I haven't had any issues, nor can I recall anyone at my store having issues either.

I agree with everything you're saying, but if the Asmodee parent is trying to dump the company for a profit, that means a potential suitor is interested in buying the product in order to make money. I'd suspect the new owner is would be looking to cash in on legion/X-Wing/etc or they'd decide to kill it before the sale happens. In either case, I don't think this new customer service policy is going to have a lasting negative beyond moans and gripes from the vocal minority of players that get shafted with incorrect products.

I've been playing miniatures games slightly longer and have seen more than a few issues with hard plastic and metal miniatures. I've had miscasts where entire parts are missing because the plastic didn't flow into the entire mold, kits that came with broken pieces despite the box being in pristine condition, kits that are missing bases, and boxes with the wrong sprue. Heck, I've had LEGOs that are missing pieces. I'm not saying I'm getting them every MONTH, but I've seen these kind of issues from various companies, including GW.

Generally, you aren't going to hear about other players having issues unless they open the box in front of you since many companies have replacement part programs that are well known to stores/players (GW springs to mind). The only reason I've heard about the problems with other Legion players is we've had open conversations about the missing pieces, especially since two of the players at my store do commision painting work on Legion products so have opened far more than the average number of boxes.

22 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

Let me state first that I think this policy change is lousy and unfortunate. And in no way do I intend to defend a pivot to a policy that is meaningfully worse than the one the one they're moving away from.

With that said...

It strikes me as "unreasonable" to purchase something, have it unopened for a year, encounter a problem when it's opened, and expect a resolution at that time. Obviously the problem shouldn't have existed to begin with, but I think it's a reasonable expectation to think a customer would open something within, say, a month of purchase. Most return policies are within that timeframe or one close to it.

Also I have returned defective products to, say, a bookstore (I got home and realized the binding was shot) the same DAY I bought it... and my only option was either a refund which sometimes comes in the form of store credit. Major brick and mortar retailers don't always have multiples of everything and expecting that your FLGS would is just not realistic. Again I think this policy shift is worse than FFG's previous policy but I also think it's completely reasonable to assume that if I return a defective product to where it was purchased, I might only get my money back.

Again, this stinks and I don't mean to defend it, but I don't think returning something to where it was purchased and getting a refund is an unacceptable policy in general.

Firstly, I agree with you about time limits, and wouldn't have an issue if that was the only change Asmodee made (submit proof of purchase showing purchase within some time frame).

The problem with this sort of "defective" product (parts missing) is the only way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to the store that the part was missing at time of purchase would be for a store employee to open the box and inventory the contents with you. Otherwise, how does the store know you didn't remove the part yourself and are now falsely claiming it was incomplete? Many stores have a policy requiring the return to be new, unused, and unopened, saying that it is not their fault the product is faulty and that you have to take it up with the manufacturer. Malformed sprues or mispacking is possibly slightly different, but some stores don't want to have to analyze things on a case by case basis.

If an FLGS starts accepting open boxes for refund as opposed to replacement from the distributor, then it opens itself up to being taken advantage of by dishonest people. If the FLGS is footing the bill for the refund (which is what the new Asmodee policy indicates, only replacement by the distributor is covered) then every refund cuts into their fairly narrow profit margins, and they may not even make up part of the loss by reselling the returned product since it is "defective" depending on agreements with distributors/manufacturers (even though I know some people would probably still be interested in buying the cards and models for conversions at a reduced price).

33 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Seriously, what percentage of products are missing pieces? I get that this has the potential to be really inconvenient. If that potential is high enough to make you worry about it, then perhaps pick a different game. This policy does not bother me in the slightest. Adapt and overcome.

Two things:

1. We don’t have numbers, because ffg doesn’t publish them. And I don’t expect them to: they’re not a publicly traded company. Don’t ask questions for which you know there cannot be an answer.

2. There’s a concept in probability called low probability high impact (paraphrasing). The jist is there are events which can happen in lower likelihood, but IF they happen the consequence is severe. While minis are a relatively low priority in the scheme of life, I would consider this an example when you can no longer resolve the issue. Yes, the impact on life isn’t there, but the impact in just the context of gaming is.

There is no adapt. Adapt means to change behavior to accommodate the situation. There is only accept.

11 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

I have been playing miniature games (Warhammer Fantasy/AoS/40k and now SW Legion) since 2014 and have never had an issue with anything other than finecast (which were just crap casts). As for legion, I haven't had any issues, nor can I recall anyone at my store having issues either.

I agree with everything you're saying, but if the Asmodee parent is trying to dump the company for a profit, that means a potential suitor is interested in buying the product in order to make money. I'd suspect the new owner is would be looking to cash in on legion/X-Wing/etc or they'd decide to kill it before the sale happens. In either case, I don't think this new customer service policy is going to have a lasting negative beyond moans and gripes from the vocal minority of players that get shafted with incorrect products.

Good for you. All I have to do is sign in on the forums and I can find yet another example of a mistake made in a Legion box. I’ve had multiple mistakes happen to me (at least 3 I can think of off the top of my head), and I am not rushing out to buy one of everything so it’s not like I have bought that much product to expect it. My imperial corps have a 20% fail rate by that standard (1 in 5 would need to have gone back by the new asmodee policy), rebel support fail rate is 100% (2 for 2 ATRT had a missing piece).

And everyone I know has had at least one mistake happen to them. Don’t kid yourself about the low odds.

My guess is that the negative impact of the policy outlasts the sale of the company. If Asmodee et al are dumped on some other company very soon, the financial impact could still be well on the way and not quite there yet.

Consider xwing 2.0 when it was coming out. It coincides closely with the last sale. Conversion kits were super generous to us players (awesome!) but they left the company with nothing else to sell a lot of established players not interested in new factions. So when it sold they were “look at that massive profit!!” And then as the new masters took over, sales slumped because conversion kits are a one time buy.

Now, I still maintain that ffg did the right thing for the edition change. My point was how the decisions of one company while selling impact the new company doing the buying.

I guarantee this will do something to sales; I just don’t know to what level. Hopefully with sprues coming now it won’t matter as much and mistake rate drops.

8 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

With that said...

It strikes me as "unreasonable" to purchase something, have it unopened for a year, encounter a problem when it's opened, and expect a resolution at that time. Obviously the problem shouldn't have existed to begin with, but I think it's a reasonable expectation to think a customer would open something within, say, a month of purchase. Most return policies are within that timeframe or one close to it.

Sure, although that leaves a lot of people used to the old policy screwed by not giving us any warning. If they had said “effective two weeks from now this is it”, the rage about how long stuff has sat around would probably be much lower as folks rush to check their goodies for what all they expect it to have.

As for refunds.... they only exist if the store itself can get a refund from the distributor upstream over the fiasco. And if they won’t do it, I doubt the LGS will take the hit when the profit margin as it stands is so low for them.

9 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Two things:

1. We don’t have numbers, because ffg doesn’t publish them. And I don’t expect them to: they’re not a publicly traded company. Don’t ask questions for which you know there cannot be an answer.

2. There’s a concept in probability called low probability high impact (paraphrasing). The jist is there are events which can happen in lower likelihood, but IF they happen the consequence is severe. While minis are a relatively low priority in the scheme of life, I would consider this an example when you can no longer resolve the issue. Yes, the impact on life isn’t there, but the impact in just the context of gaming is.

There is no adapt. Adapt means to change behavior to accommodate the situation. There is only accept.

Good for you. All I have to do is sign in on the forums and I can find yet another example of a mistake made in a Legion box. I’ve had multiple mistakes happen to me (at least 3 I can think of off the top of my head), and I am not rushing out to buy one of everything so it’s not like I have bought that much product to expect it. My imperial corps have a 20% fail rate by that standard (1 in 5 would need to have gone back by the new asmodee policy), rebel support fail rate is 100% (2 for 2 ATRT had a missing piece).

And everyone I know has had at least one mistake happen to them. Don’t kid yourself about the low odds.

My guess is that the negative impact of the policy outlasts the sale of the company. If Asmodee et al are dumped on some other company very soon, the financial impact could still be well on the way and not quite there yet.

Consider xwing 2.0 when it was coming out. It coincides closely with the last sale. Conversion kits were super generous to us players (awesome!) but they left the company with nothing else to sell a lot of established players not interested in new factions. So when it sold they were “look at that massive profit!!” And then as the new masters took over, sales slumped because conversion kits are a one time buy.

Now, I still maintain that ffg did the right thing for the edition change. My point was how the decisions of one company while selling impact the new company doing the buying.

I guarantee this will do something to sales; I just don’t know to what level. Hopefully with sprues coming now it won’t matter as much and mistake rate drops.

Sure, although that leaves a lot of people used to the old policy screwed by not giving us any warning. If they had said “effective two weeks from now this is it”, the rage about how long stuff has sat around would probably be much lower as folks rush to check their goodies for what all they expect it to have.

As for refunds.... they only exist if the store itself can get a refund from the distributor upstream over the fiasco. And if they won’t do it, I doubt the LGS will take the hit when the profit margin as it stands is so low for them.

If I had warning, I would have opened every yet-to-be opened box I got for Christmas. I also would have been sure to get a replacement for the wookie with two left arms sooner. I had operated mentally under the old precedent that FFG would make their mistake right.

3 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Two things:

1. We don’t have numbers, because ffg doesn’t publish them. And I don’t expect them to: they’re not a publicly traded company. Don’t ask questions for which you know there cannot be an answer.

2. There’s a concept in probability called low probability high impact (paraphrasing). The jist is there are events which can happen in lower likelihood, but IF they happen the consequence is severe. While minis are a relatively low priority in the scheme of life, I would consider this an example when you can no longer resolve the issue. Yes, the impact on life isn’t there, but the impact in just the context of gaming is.

There is no adapt. Adapt means to change behavior to accommodate the situation. There is only accept.

1. Then people shouldn't present as though this issue is rampant and all kits are failing. Anecdotal evidence is just that. Asking for numbers which could make me say "Hmm, I guess I got that one wrong. Sorry guys, I'll change my opinion" is a bad thing?

2. There is nothing severe about this. It is a game. All things in life come with inherent risk. If the severity of this is so severe that it could be debilitating in any form, then one should rethink one's continued support of this game.

There absolutely is an adapt here. Assuming one has decided to continue playing the game and purchasing products know that returns/refunds are absolutely no an option, there are other solutions. Bad cast or missing piece? Do a conversion. Missing card? Print one and use it. As for the folks who are worried about the strictest of tournaments, if they really want to participate and a model/card/etc is missing they will buy a replacement or borrow.

9 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

1. Then people shouldn't present as though this issue is rampant and all kits are failing. Anecdotal evidence is just that. Asking for numbers which could make me say "Hmm, I guess I got that one wrong. Sorry guys, I'll change my opinion" is a bad thing?

2. There is nothing severe about this. It is a game. All things in life come with inherent risk. If the severity of this is so severe that it could be debilitating in any form, then one should rethink one's continued support of this game.

There absolutely is an adapt here. Assuming one has decided to continue playing the game and purchasing products know that returns/refunds are absolutely no an option, there are other solutions. Bad cast or missing piece? Do a conversion. Missing card? Print one and use it. As for the folks who are worried about the strictest of tournaments, if they really want to participate and a model/card/etc is missing they will buy a replacement or borrow.

Excusing bad business practices and minimizing the impact of said business practices on consumers is one approach, but not the approach I would have personally taken.

44 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

1. Then people shouldn't present as though this issue is rampant and all kits are failing. Anecdotal evidence is just that. Asking for numbers which could make me say "Hmm, I guess I got that one wrong. Sorry guys, I'll change my opinion" is a bad thing?

2. There is nothing severe about this. It is a game. All things in life come with inherent risk. If the severity of this is so severe that it could be debilitating in any form, then one should rethink one's continued support of this game.

There absolutely is an adapt here. Assuming one has decided to continue playing the game and purchasing products know that returns/refunds are absolutely no an option, there are other solutions. Bad cast or missing piece? Do a conversion. Missing card? Print one and use it. As for the folks who are worried about the strictest of tournaments, if they really want to participate and a model/card/etc is missing they will buy a replacement or borrow.

No one said "Every kit is flawed," just that the occurrence rate of mispacks, miscasts, etc. in this hobby is greater than your personal experience. Asking for numbers which are not provided from the one source that has the complete numbers (Asmodee) and will not publically provide their QA procedure (how many from each lot are checked) seems to be an empty gesture, unless you honestly didn't know there wasn't a publicly available source for this information. The anecdotal evidence I have provided is intended to show that the failure rate is not zero, and is more common than your personal experience.

Given that the entire initial production of a given product (the Dewback) was mispacked with the wrong base within the last year, which was publicly admitted by FFG, it seems flawed to claim there are next to no issues with the product. This should have been caught by even a cursory QA spot check.

Let me turn it around on you: What are the numbers of product that has absolutely no issues? What is the current chance that a given box in a store will be complete and have absolutely no issues with parts? Responses should be based on a statistically significant portion of all product, as that seems to be the sort of answer you were hoping for with your initial question.

My personal experience has been that the rate of error is greater than GW's (I've bought more GW product so far, but had more issues with Legion boxes missing parts).

How can you buy a replacement card (JUST the card)? Unless the card you happen to be missing is released as an alternate art tournament reward people don't tend to have "spare" cards to sell since they also need the card to field the model. Borrowing can help, but shouldn't be necessary from a new box. The listings I find on eBay are all of promo cards, or miniatures with cards. I suppose that this policy change may increase the secondary market, which is good for people who only want the miniatures for RPGs, but that shouldn't excuse a bad policy.

If the QA continues as it has, and the number of questions on the forums/Facebook about how to handle a missing part don't decrease with new production, people who are considering getting into the game might be turned off of starting the game, not to mention the potential for some people quitting if they get burned on one of the expensive vehicle kits.