52 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Sure, and those people are destined to lose out to omnipresent competition that does, Ie Amazon.

Why would I ever buy from a brick and mortar again when the obvious alternatives are return friendly?? Outside of extreme sentiment, there’s no obvious answer there.

edit: @SoonerTed Can and will are two different things, of which I am sure you are aware.

They sure are, and as I mentioned, it’s an unwise business practice when your competition does it.

So that you have a place to play between conventions? I don't think Amazon is setting up legion tournaments, or weekly game nights in their parking lots.

Also Amazon is not necessarily "return friendly," I've had them require me to pay for return postage, and seen them refuse returns before, even on defective product.

I am shocked that there are people who are not only not alarmed by this blatantly anti-consumer, anti-LGS move purely designed to help the parent company's (not FFG'S!) bottom line, but that there are people essentially defending it. This is only a bad thing for anyone who plays Legion, or any other FFG game.

Personally, if this IS leading up to a sale, I hope the next company wants to make money RUNNING a board/miniatures game company and not just from SELLING a board/miniatures game company.

46 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

< Deleted due to being overly pithy >

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

So that you have a place to play between conventions? I don't think Amazon is setting up legion tournaments, or weekly game nights in their parking lots.

Also Amazon is not necessarily "return friendly," I've had them require me to pay for return postage, and seen them refuse returns before, even on defective product.

Again, the brick and mortar is there to sell games, not to be my play pen. They might offer that, and that’s great, but if they flunk part 1, part 2 is much less meaningful.

Our online shopping experiences differ dramatically, as I’ve never had a problem with a return for a broken item.

16 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Again, the brick and mortar is there to sell games, not to be my play pen. They might offer that, and that’s great, but if they flunk part 1, part 2 is much less meaningful.

Our online shopping experiences differ dramatically, as I’ve never had a problem with a return for a broken item.

Depends on who the actual seller is, and it gets trickier with "defective" open product as opposed to damaged packaging.

I've had multi-pack product delivered with missing product (so three air filters instead of four for instance) and Amazon would only give me a partial refund, they wouldn't do an exchange. So I have no idea how they will handle the Legion stuff, especially if a customer gets labeled as a "chronic returner."

To me, it's the other way around in regards to the store. Yes, I need to be able to buy games at a decent price, but I need a place to play more. I don't have space in my house for a dedicated gaming table and I'm not going to invite random people over. Now, in my particular case I do also get great customer service, and I'm sure they will do their best to make things right if I have an issue, but not everyone is lucky enough to have that quality of store, or even a choice of gaming store. Where I grew up, the nearest gaming store was over an hour away, and it was the only store for miles. The option was game there, or not game at all.

On 2/18/2020 at 8:40 PM, TauntaunScout said:

Well I sent them a protest email. Bout all I can do.

What about a petition?

36 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

What about a petition?

Just as easy to ignore as an email honestly without some kind of mass media publicity or a corresponding decrease in sales.

Edit: That's not to say it's not worthwhile, just that I doubt there will be much impact, regardless of number of signatures.

30 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Just as easy to ignore as an email honestly without some kind of mass media publicity or a corresponding decrease in sales.

Edit: That's not to say it's not worthwhile, just that I doubt there will be much impact, regardless of number of signatures.

The best way affect change is to make sure the gaming press gets a hold of the story. Bad publicity is more effective at shaming a company than petitions, letters, and boycotts. @JediPartisan @BiggsIRL

I've been in retail management /customer service for 21 years. For all those who are saying that this issue is an easy fix, and your flgs will take an open product back, defective or not, is seriously misinformed. And to further say that it would make said store "bad" or not worthwhile in any form, is completely off base and you're living in a fantasy world. Big chains maybe. Macy's, Target, etc. They'll make the exchange. But that's not where you buy Legion. My local game store? Not in a thousand years.

As a matter of fact, my local game store is closing soon. Why? And this is directly from the owner: because people buy their games online, and bring them into the store to paint. They sold 1 Clone Wars box the first week. 10 people were painting their Clone Wars box that same week. Flgs can't survive on cans of Coke and paint pots. This new line of action only further makes thing more difficult for brick and mortar.

7 hours ago, SoonerTed said:

The best way affect change is to make sure the gaming press gets a hold of the story. Bad publicity is more effective at shaming a company than petitions, letters, and boycotts. @JediPartisan @BiggsIRL

This is absolutely NOT something the FLGSs want to deal with. Mine is currently checking with Alliance, the US Sole Distributer, to make sure "give it back to Alliance to get replaced" is the logical next step, because if it isn't then they are going to have to impliment a "no refunds" policy on Asmodee products.

7 hours ago, AldousSnow said:

I've been in retail management /customer service for 21 years. For all those who are saying that this issue is an easy fix, and your flgs will take an open product back, defective or not, is seriously misinformed. And to further say that it would make said store "bad" or not worthwhile in any form, is completely off base and you're living in a fantasy world. Big chains maybe. Macy's, Target, etc. They'll make the exchange. But that's not where you buy Legion. My local game store? Not in a thousand years.

As a matter of fact, my local game store is closing soon. Why? And this is directly from the owner: because people buy their games online, and bring them into the store to paint. They sold 1 Clone Wars box the first week. 10 people were painting their Clone Wars box that same week. Flgs can't survive on cans of Coke and paint pots. This new line of action only further makes thing more difficult for brick and mortar.

You aren’t making the point that you think you are Aldous. It’s not about the already existing issue of losing business to online competitors.

The issue is that Any store that sells a defective product and refuses to accept a return of that defective product is doomed. There are already convenient alternatives, failing to match the basic standard of: “we can be trusted to sell you things that work” is a mistake.

9 minutes ago, Derrault said:

You aren’t making the point that you think you are Aldous. It’s not about the already existing issue of losing business to online competitors.

The issue is that Any store that sells a defective product and refuses to accept a return of that defective product is doomed. There are already convenient alternatives, failing to match the basic standard of: “we can be trusted to sell you things that work” is a mistake.

But the LGS is on the hook then for Asmodee’s mistakes when Asmodee won’t make it right with the LGS for shipping them a bad product. Same argument you just made, up a level of the supply chain.

Asmodee is the problem here, not the LGS that’s caught in the middle.

14 hours ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

Except if you get caught you would be DQed from an event.

If I had a card stolen before an event, I'd email the TO and explain the situation or borrow one from a friend. Heck, in the event I'm running two units of B-2's, what is the requirement that I have more than one card? I could easily use one card for both.

14 hours ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

Dude, you’re full of terrible ideas... are you going to play your games at FFG’s stores also? 🙄

Okay there keyboard warrior. I'm offering alternatives to folks like you with a bag full of excuses. I will continue to patronize my FLGS for all of my purchases because this whole return policy is a not issue for me. If I got a bad product, I'd return/exchange it (missing cards/tokens that are unique) or I'd customize the model in question (assuming the error wasn't so glaring that it was impossible). If I have to wait to get it replaced, so be it. I'm not a professional legions player, so my livelihood doesn't require me to have the latest and greatest toys day one.

1 minute ago, Derrault said:

You aren’t making the point that you think you are Aldous. It’s not about the already existing issue of losing business to online competitors.

The issue is that Any store that sells a defective product and refuses to accept a return of that defective product is doomed. There are already convenient alternatives, failing to match the basic standard of: “we can be trusted to sell you things that work” is a mistake.

Holding a store accountable for the mistakes of the manufacturer is a bit flawed. Should the store open every product to check that everything is inside and okay before selling it? Or is it the responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure everything is fine? The store is the customer of the distributor, and the distributor is the customer of Asmodee, so all of them should get their money back by your reasoning. But that isn't how it works in practice, and often there isn't a choice in distributor owing to exclusivity contracts. Not all distributors will accept returns, sticking the store with the defective, unsaleable product and the loss. FLGSs don't have a huge profit margin, and can't afford to eat a loss on manufacturer defects. I've seen similar policies at other kinds of hobby stores (trains, etc) and art supply stores. Lots of places require the return to be in "new, unused, unopened" condition to avoid dishonest people from taking advantage.

Not to mention, there are plenty of online places that don't take returns for any reason on open product. Amazon isn't the actual seller for a bunch of their listed products, they just let people pay them money to list the product and use their warehouses. many of these sellers have return policies different from Amazon's. Add in that Amazon sometimes requires the buyer to pay for return shipping and it isn't any better, since shipping sometimes costs almost as much as the item being returned (yes I've had this happen AS A PRIME MEMBER on defective or deficient merchandise). I'd be better off converting the miniature to make up for the missing part, or buying a 3D printed replacement rather than be out money.

For miniatures games, it's much harder for the store to tell if the product is actually defective, or if the buyer removed part of the product, and is now trying to make a return by lying. Was the smoke grenade card never in the box, or did the buyer remove it and is now lying? Same goes for the parts, especially stuff like strike team snipers or alien heads from the Rebel Upgrade pack.

On 2/18/2020 at 4:11 PM, SoonerTed said:

What in the world? I don't have the receipt for something I purchased months ago but finally put together. One of my wookies came with two left arms!

This is ludicrous!

This will be another obstacle. I am dealing with a Blood Bowl defective sprue, problem is I bought it about a year ago and do not have a receipt from my FLGS and they can not look it up. GW is asking for my receipt for the replacement, if they insist on it I will be stuck with this defective sprue. Many stores if they take returns have a 15-30 day policies, and we should look before that time, but often in the hobby that does not happen.

39 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Heck, in the event I'm running two units of B-2's, what is the requirement that I have more than one card? I could easily use one card for both.

By the rules you need a card per unit. Some wound tokens, exhausted abilities, extra weapons and so on, go on the card.

Personally I usually play on a very limited space so we don't even pick up the cards, and just put every token directly on the mini (even medics get wound tokens to represent how many times I used the ability), but this is not on the rules.

But the rules clearly state you need 1 card per unit and per upgrade. That's mostly written in the Rules Reference, definition of Unit (but mentioned a bunch of other times elsewhere):

UNIT
A unit is a miniature or collection of minis that functions as a
single fighting group.
• Each unit has a corresponding unit card (...)

So, if you'll necessarily need as many unit cards as units.

4 minutes ago, CyberClaw said:

By the rules you need a card per unit. Some wound tokens, exhausted abilities, extra weapons and so on, go on the card.

Personally I usually play on a very limited space so we don't even pick up the cards, and just put every token directly on the mini (even medics get wound tokens to represent how many times I used the ability), but this is not on the rules.

But the rules clearly state you need 1 card per unit and per upgrade. That's mostly written in the Rules Reference, definition of Unit (but mentioned a bunch of other times elsewhere):

UNIT
A unit is a miniature or collection of minis that functions as a
single fighting group.
• Each unit has a corresponding unit card (...)

So, if you'll necessarily need as many unit cards as units.

Again, if one has a legit B-2 card and a copy of that card because someone stole the original (or it was lost/damaged), I think one will be just fine. And if it is truly necessary, a replica of the card could be made to such a quality that no one would be able to tell it wasn't the original. It is really a non-issue. The exact same could be done for models. If I were to use a high quality 3D printer to make my own Count Dooku to the exact same scale/dimensions as the current offering, how would anyone tell it wasn't real? There are easy solutions to the problems coming up in this thread. That being said, I do believe if Asmodee/FFG ships/sells a defective product, they need to make it right. Folks just have to understand it may not be made right instantly.

42 minutes ago, Cusm said:

This will be another obstacle. I am dealing with a Blood Bowl defective sprue, problem is I bought it about a year ago and do not have a receipt from my FLGS and they can not look it up. GW is asking for my receipt for the replacement, if they insist on it I will be stuck with this defective sprue. Many stores if they take returns have a 15-30 day policies, and we should look before that time, but often in the hobby that does not happen.

How bad is the defect/what part/ which team? This doesn't make it "right" but you may be able to get a similar replacement part from an eBay bits seller and do a conversion with a jeweler's saw and some plastic glue.

To tie this back to the topic, this sort of conversion repair is likely to become more frequent with Legion.

3 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Again, if one has a legit B-2 card and a copy of that card because someone stole the original (or it was lost/damaged), I think one will be just fine. And if it is truly necessary, a replica of the card could be made to such a quality that no one would be able to tell it wasn't the original. It is really a non-issue. The exact same could be done for models. If I were to use a high quality 3D printer to make my own Count Dooku to the exact same scale/dimensions as the current offering, how would anyone tell it wasn't real?

We are discussing tournament eligibility. What you are suggesting is counterfeit goods usually called "proxies", which although acceptable in a casual environment is very strictly forbidden in a tournament setting. It is also illegal, and can get you in trouble for piracy (making unlicensed copies of licensed material is forbidden by law in most countries).

Every game, from Magic the Gathering, to X-Wing or Legion, has a list of required official components. Out of those components there is a list of what needs to be official and "original", instead of a proxy. Using X-Wing as an example, you need both original miniatures and cards. Stuff like dice and rulers can be third party. In Legion, you need original miniatures and cards. The miniatures can be altered as long as it doesn't change their height and their identifiability.

Using proxies is forbidden and grounds for disqualification and many times ban in almost any tournament (Legion, X-Wing, MTG, etc). The purpose is obvious, it's a way to make sure you "pay" the creator their due money to play the game (many times the creator sponsors such events anyway), as if the game is not profitable, it'll stop being supported.

9 minutes ago, CyberClaw said:

We are discussing tournament eligibility. What you are suggesting is counterfeit goods usually called "proxies", which although acceptable in a casual environment is very strictly forbidden in a tournament setting. It is also illegal, and can get you in trouble for piracy (making unlicensed copies of licensed material is forbidden by law in most countries).

Every game, from Magic the Gathering, to X-Wing or Legion, has a list of required official components. Out of those components there is a list of what needs to be official and "original", instead of a proxy. Using X-Wing as an example, you need both original miniatures and cards. Stuff like dice and rulers can be third party. In Legion, you need original miniatures and cards. The miniatures can be altered as long as it doesn't change their height and their identifiability.

Using proxies is forbidden and grounds for disqualification and many times ban in almost any tournament (Legion, X-Wing, MTG, etc). The purpose is obvious, it's a way to make sure you "pay" the creator their due money to play the game (many times the creator sponsors such events anyway), as if the game is not profitable, it'll stop being supported.

The rules do allow for proxies under certain circumstances. FFG SWL Tournament Regulations:
https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/36/fa/36fa7cda-0125-4e49-94b3-900668d59aa0/swl_tournament_regulations_v11_text_version.pdf

Quote

Legal Products
Players may use only official Star Wars: Legion components in tournament play, with the following exceptions for third-party replacements:
• Non-essential tokens (see “Tokens” on page 9)
• Range rulers that match the dimensions of an official range ruler or a particular section of an official range ruler
• Bases with the same general diameter and shape as a miniature’s official base Determining the legality of any questionable third-party tokens and range rulers is the marshal’s responsibility. Proxies of cards are not allowed unless used under the rules of “Lost and Damaged Components” on page 8. Components can be modified only as described under “Component Modifications” on page 8.

Quote

Lost and Damaged Components
If a player loses a component during a tournament, he or she has an opportunity to find a replacement, if necessary. Any player that discovers they are missing an essential component at the beginning of or during a round should notify a leader. The leader will give the player a short time extension to their game in order to find a replacement. If the player cannot find areplacement within that time, they must concede the game. If the player is unable to find a replacement by the start of the next round, they should be removed from the tournament.

If an essential component becomes damaged during the course of a tournament, he or she has an opportunity to find a replacement. If the player cannot find a replacement, the damaged component is treated as lost unless it falls within one of the following categories.
• Damaged Card: The player keeps the original card near the rest of their army and uses a proxy card in its place for the remainder of the tournament. A leader will create the proxy, including the card name, any information that is no longer legible or available on the damaged card, the name of the leader who created it, and the date it was created.
• Damaged Mini: The miniature, in its damaged state, does not impede the progress of play and abides by the rules under “Component Modifications” on page 8. If the mini does impede play, the player may modify the mini so that it does not impede play, or else they must find a replacement.
• Damaged Dice, Range Rulers, or Movement Tools: The player keeps the original component near the rest of his or her army and requests to share his or her opponent’s component for each remaining round of the tournament

If a player shows up to a tournament and claims a lost card, it is going to be okay. If one has printed a dupe (or dupes of cards) and says "I can prepared in case one of my cards was lost/stolen/ripped/etc," the TO can either validate the printed card is an authentic representation (i.e. no photoshop cheating) or hand write a new one. This card nonsense is much ado about nothing.

On 2/20/2020 at 10:16 AM, Mokoshkana said:

The rules do allow for proxies under certain circumstances. FFG SWL Tournament Regulations:
https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/36/fa/36fa7cda-0125-4e49-94b3-900668d59aa0/swl_tournament_regulations_v11_text_version.pdf

If a player shows up to a tournament and claims a lost card, it is going to be okay. If one has printed a dupe (or dupes of cards) and says "I can prepared in case one of my cards was lost/stolen/ripped/etc," the TO can either validate the printed card is an authentic representation (i.e. no photoshop cheating) or hand write a new one. This card nonsense is much ado about nothing.

Again, this is a distraction from Asmodee's anti-consumer anti-FLGS policy on defective/ missing items. If a customer loses an item that is different from having it kissing in the sealed package or having the wrong part included.

14 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

The rules do allow for proxies under certain circumstances. FFG SWL Tournament Regulations:
https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/36/fa/36fa7cda-0125-4e49-94b3-900668d59aa0/swl_tournament_regulations_v11_text_version.pdf

If a player shows up to a tournament and claims a lost card, it is going to be okay. If one has printed a dupe (or dupes of cards) and says "I can prepared in case one of my cards was lost/stolen/ripped/etc," the TO can either validate the printed card is an authentic representation (i.e. no photoshop cheating) or hand write a new one. This card nonsense is much ado about nothing.

How exactly is it going to be okay if you show up and claim a lost card? Per the quoted rules, if you cannot find a replacement for a missing card, you have to concede. The text you bolded only applies if your card is damaged...

Regardless, Asmodee/FFG shouldn't be responsible for you losing your cards. If you lose your car keys, you have to pay for a replacement, the dealer won't issue you a free replacement.

The main concern is stuff missing from the boxes. And while I personally have never had missing cards, I have had missing pieces.

20 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

I f a player shows up to a tournament and claims a lost card, it is going to be okay. If one has printed a dupe (or dupes of cards) and says "I can prepared in case one of my cards was lost/stolen/ripped/etc," the TO can either validate the printed card is an authentic representation (i.e. no photoshop cheating) or hand write a new one. This card nonsense is much ado about nothing.

No, because if you claim a lost card, you are given time to find a replacement, and if you fail to do so, you're forced to forfeit. You can only use a proxy next to a damaged card (not a lost card). It's very clearly written in your quoted rules:

Lost component:

Quote

If a player loses a component during a tournament, he or she has an opportunity to find a replacement

Damaged card:

Quote

The player keeps the original card near the rest of their army and uses a proxy card in its place

31 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

The rules do allow for proxies under certain circumstances. FFG SWL Tournament Regulations:
https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/36/fa/36fa7cda-0125-4e49-94b3-900668d59aa0/swl_tournament_regulations_v11_text_version.pdf

If a player shows up to a tournament and claims a lost card, it is going to be okay. If one has printed a dupe (or dupes of cards) and says "I can prepared in case one of my cards was lost/stolen/ripped/etc," the TO can either validate the printed card is an authentic representation (i.e. no photoshop cheating) or hand write a new one. This card nonsense is much ado about nothing.

Wrong. The rules specifically says that if it's lost or damaged DURING the tournament. If you show up with a proxy, that happened before the event. It's your responsibility to bring an authentic card.