10 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Bombs are awesome in Aces High format when you want lots of “first blood” points

Bombs don't give any points in Aces High, since points are only scored by attacking. Unless you play with house-rules

11 minutes ago, asterborn said:

Bombs don't give any points in Aces High, since points are only scored by attacking. Unless you play with house-rules

We’ve definitely been doing it wrong then. Whoops

Haven’t read all the comments here but keep in mind they have more impact than their actual affect. They give players hesitation from zipping right in behind a ship if they know they’re gonna eat a bomb next turn. So it can have an impact on positioning on top of the passive damage.

edit: I see the OP somewhat addressed this in the original post, but I’m not convinced this a one turn stalling/reengagement prop. But it may depend widely on opposing ships and their abilities as well as what else you can do. It’s too many variables to say that causing a ship to not approach you is only worth three points.

When you win

4 minutes ago, wurms said:

When you win

I like this one.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

There is a lot of vitriol and hate for me and my skills for people who’ve never met me in this thread. Very surprising. And not welcome.

Yeah, like - you and I haven't always agreed but I really don't like the approach some folks are taking. It's f**king rude.

Thanks people I appreciate the support.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Thanks people I appreciate the support.

No, thank you dude.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

There is a lot of vitriol and hate for me and my skills for people who’ve never met me in this thread. Very surprising. And not welcome.

I don't think it's as much vitriol as you think. IMO, they disagree with your expectations and how you weighted your observations. Is a bomb that's never dropped a waste even though you won the game? One point of view says it was a waste. Good points spent for no damage. On the other hand, a player may say it was definitely worth the points spent to keep my opponent off my butt and force more range 3 attacks from the front arcs.

If you expect every seismic bomb to deal multiple hits or proton bomb to deal multiple crits, you'll never see the worth of bombs. If you view your bomb load as another tool (weapon) to use against your opponent and you win, the points were well spent even if they failed to cause damage.

Finally, I think you under value area denial. Do you have a plan when you place obstacles or just drop them wherever? If their placement is planned, you are practicing area denial to some extent. Many view bombs and mines the same way. A prox mine dropped between two asteroids is a good deterrent to pursuit. The real threat of a proton bomb dropped in your lap may force you to make a less than optimal move.

Unrealistic expectations vs intangible results. It's a variation on the glass half empty/half full conundrum.

21 hours ago, Tvboy said:

In my experience, the only way old fashioned bombs like protons and seismics work is when you run them in multiples and create a net. It's so easy to avoid a single bomb because they are so easy to predict and pretty much every ship can reposition, but drop 2 or 3 bombs at once in combination with some obstacles and you can actually force some damage through. Add in Sabine crew so that being caught by even one bomb means getting tractored into more bombs and obstacles, which in turn can mean being ionized into more bombs next turn, and you can start having some real fun.

If you want to run just an single payload in a list, it should unequivocally be Prox Mines, and ideally on a high initiative pilot. On Boba I have found it to be equivalent to getting a free attack during the system phase.

In the 1e games of HOTAC i've played, bombs have worked well, though there's been times i've gone a whole mission and not been able to use one without catching an ally.

4 hours ago, wurms said:

When you win

This says it all.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I don't think it's as much vitriol as you think. IMO, they disagree with your expectations and how you weighted your observations. Is a bomb that's never dropped a waste even though you won the game? One point of view says it was a waste. Good points spent for no damage.

One should look at this this way: Is it a good investment even though you _lost_ the game and never had a chance to use it?

Tricky question of course, generally 3 points are hard to make wins or losses, but I do like me an elusive or a baffle sometimes.

--

If I win the game regardless of the bomb, its likely the value of the bomb didn't overcome the skill gap that I have vs the other player.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I don't think it's as much vitriol as you think. IMO, they disagree with your expectations and how you weighted your observations. Is a bomb that's never dropped a waste even though you won the game? One point of view says it was a waste. Good points spent for no damage. On the other hand, a player may say it was definitely worth the points spent to keep my opponent off my butt and force more range 3 attacks from the front arcs.

If you expect every seismic bomb to deal multiple hits or proton bomb to deal multiple crits, you'll never see the worth of bombs. If you view your bomb load as another tool (weapon) to use against your opponent and you win, the points were well spent even if they failed to cause damage.

Finally, I think you under value area denial. Do you have a plan when you place obstacles or just drop them wherever? If their placement is planned, you are practicing area denial to some extent. Many view bombs and mines the same way. A prox mine dropped between two asteroids is a good deterrent to pursuit. The real threat of a proton bomb dropped in your lap may force you to make a less than optimal move.

Unrealistic expectations vs intangible results. It's a variation on the glass half empty/half full conundrum.

Just because rude is the default way of talking to people here doesn't make it less rude.

13 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Yep. This is another nonsense thread from someone who doesn’t understand the game.

20 hours ago, stootchmaster said:

Here's my favorite Hyperspace list right now. It's fun. Boba Fett crew makes the first turn interesting.

Emon Azzameen (71)
Boba Fett (4)
Seismic Charges (3)
Hull Upgrade (5)
Andrasta (3)
Proton Bombs (5)

Joy Rekkoff (52)
Outmaneuver (6)

Serissu (41)
Hull Upgrade (7)
Tractor Beam (3)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Why are you flying Joy instead of a Skull? You are wasting 5 points for nothing.

Drop Joy for a Skull so you can put Contraband Cybernetics on Emon and maybe a talent on Serissu. Fearless?

Bombs can definitely be worthwhile, and there have been several reasonably successful lists at major tournaments which use bombs or mines.

I think you might be focusing a bit too much on individual interactions, and not seeing the value of the bomb over the course of the game as a result. Sure, if one ship has to boost one time, but you don't have arc on them, that might not seem like value. But a big part of the strength of bombs is that the threat of them can influence the maneuvers and actions of multiple ships over multiple turns. When one or two ships each turn are avoiding certain maneuvers because they're afraid of bombs, that can add up to a significant advantage, or make them predictable enough that you can pull off that sweet block. It's not a guarantee, but it happens often enough to justify the cost in the right list.

There are definitely some lists which benefit from bombs more than others. Turrets and back arcs (or Trajectory Simulator) make it easier to benefit from bombs, since you can bomb and shoot in the same direction, and stress or ion can help further limit your opponent's maneuvers. And that's not to say you need to spend loads of points on these things purely to try to make your bombs work - stuff like the Firespray or 0-0-0 is good in its own right, but also works well with bombs if you choose to use them.

25 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

Why are you flying Joy instead of a Skull? You are wasting 5 points for nothing.

Drop Joy for a Skull so you can put Contraband Cybernetics on Emon and maybe a talent on Serissu. Fearless?

I don't have a Contraband Cybernetics card, and I think the double focus off of red moves is worth the five points since those Fang fighters sort of live off of the focus. It makes the Outmaneuver work even better when I can swing around behind someone with a 2 - Talon and have a focus to modify the shot.

I have flown the list with a Skull/ Fearless and put the extra points into Snap Shot for Serissu. It works pretty well too.

Nvm

1 minute ago, stootchmaster said:

I don't have a Contraband Cybernetics card, and I think the double focus off of red moves is worth the five points since those Fang fighters sort of live off of the focus. It makes the Outmaneuver work even better when I can swing around behind someone with a 2 - Talon and have a focus to modify the shot.

I see the thinking of Outmaneuver now. But Kad Solus gives the two focus, not Joy. You would have to drop something to fit Kad in, maybe tractor beam.

2 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

I see the thinking of Outmaneuver now. But Kad Solus gives the two focus, not Joy. You would have to drop something to fit Kad in, maybe tractor beam.

Oh ****. . .you're right. I put up the wrong list. 😐

Emon Azzameen (71)
Boba Fett (4)
Seismic Charges (3)
Andrasta (3)
Proton Bombs (5)

Kad Solus (54)
Outmaneuver (6)

Serissu (41)
Intimidation (3)
Hull Upgrade (7)
Tractor Beam (3)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

I think Vagabond should be fun to use. Given that Skilled Bombardier and Delayed Fuzes, and you've got a heck of a lot of flexibility on where to put those bombs and when they go off, and the ability to drop two in quick succession can't be overlooked. I do like the idea of a squad of four named TIE/sk aces, and Vagabond's ability is one that should make him a lot scarier than his cost and initiative should justify.

I agree they're mostly about fear rather than effect. A Swarm will eat bombs and die horribly, but without the ability to drop bombs after moving, it's often surprisingly hard to use mines effectively. Plus mines have been largely removed from hyperspace anyway.

I think we are at the point where the original post and it’s assertions are at such a clear and obvious break from reality that you can’t really engage with rational arguments. If rational arguments and evidence of success was going to work then the OP wouldn’t have said what he said in the first place.

Proton Bombs are currently the 9th best upgrade card in the game according to metawing. They just won the biggest x-wing tournament of the year. Along with Proxy Mines they’re considered key elements of making many ships viable and have demonstrated that repeatedly over the last 18 months.

And if none of that made you go “huh, maybe I’m wrong and should recheck my valuations and how I think about the game as I’m obviously missing something” then it’s unlikely anybody on this forum will be able to shake your cast iron conviction that the best players in the world are doing it wrong and you know best.

One of the things I've found with second edition a bit more so than first edition is that you have to be careful of falling into the idea that not using an upgrade in one or two games makes the upgrade not worth taking as well as the other side of the coin that something that shined in a particular game is the best upgrade ever and you should never fly without it.

That's where the fundamental premise beginning this thread is flawed. Specifically the "worth their value" part. There seems an incorrect conflation of "cost" and "value." "Value" is a very subjective thing. I like to put it as, "If you don't get what you want, you didn't get a deal." Are you the sort to pay $2 for a $5 thing you don't need or the sort to pay $10 for a $5 thing you need. The valuation in those two circumstances is very different.

That seems to me the root of the not-even-wrong of the original post. An individual upgrade can not be taken in a vacuum absent the other parts of the list. Upgrades go on ships and more than one ship goes in a list. Ships and upgrades have a cost. The question is whether that cost provides something you need in the context of all the ships and upgrades and it is then up to each individual player to determine the value they've gotten out of their choices.

And the value you get from your list doesn't exist in a vacuum either. There is another player across the table trying very hard to make all of your choices worthless. And the goddess Fortuna always seems to insert her fickle whims into the math.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I think Vagabond should be fun to use. Given that Skilled Bombardier and Delayed Fuzes, and you've got a heck of a lot of flexibility on where to put those bombs and when they go off, and the ability to drop two in quick succession can't be overlooked. I do like the idea of a squad of four named TIE/sk aces, and Vagabond's ability is one that should make him a lot scarier than his cost and initiative should justify.

I agree they're mostly about fear rather than effect. A Swarm will eat bombs and die horribly, but without the ability to drop bombs after moving, it's often surprisingly hard to use mines effectively. Plus mines have been largely removed from hyperspace anyway.

I think Vagabond could be a very potent little ship. Do your aileron move, drop your bomb, and then attempt to block your opponent as most of the time you'll be moving before them. As I'm terrible with Strikers, I've not attempted this, but it could be a fun thing to try once I've burned through the pile of Extended lists I want to try now that the SoS is out the way...

I think of bombs like a use for those lat 5ish points. Its usually comes down to ahield upgrade on a B wing or proton bombs on a Y wing. If I can do 1 damage between 2 proton bombs, I call it a tie. Any more damage is just gravy. Plus it makes swarms think harder because vultures hate proton bombs. Seismics too because no rocks => wasted struts

29 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

I think Vagabond could be a very potent little ship. Do your aileron move, drop your bomb, and then attempt to block your opponent as most of the time you'll be moving before them. As I'm terrible with Strikers, I've not attempted this, but it could be a fun thing to try once I've burned through the pile of Extended lists I want to try now that the SoS is out the way...

Done right, especially with skilled bombardier, you can drop 1, then in your activation aileron, drop a second, and watch your opponent cringe with horror as they land between two proton bombs. Shieldless ace fighters (like Fenn Rau) will not be pleased.

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

One of the things I've found with second edition a bit more so than first edition is that you have to be careful of falling into the idea that not using an upgrade in one or two games makes the upgrade not worth taking as well as the other side of the coin that something that shined in a particular game is the best upgrade ever and you should never fly without it.

That's where the fundamental premise beginning this thread is flawed. Specifically the "worth their value" part. There seems an incorrect conflation of "cost" and "value." "Value" is a very subjective thing. I like to put it as, "If you don't get what you want, you didn't get a deal." Are you the sort to pay $2 for a $5 thing you don't need or the sort to pay $10 for a $5 thing you need. The valuation in those two circumstances is very different.

That seems to me the root of the not-even-wrong of the original post. An individual upgrade can not be taken in a vacuum absent the other parts of the list. Upgrades go on ships and more than one ship goes in a list. Ships and upgrades have a cost. The question is whether that cost provides something you need in the context of all the ships and upgrades and it is then up to each individual player to determine the value they've gotten out of their choices.

And the value you get from your list doesn't exist in a vacuum either. There is another player across the table trying very hard to make all of your choices worthless. And the goddess Fortuna always seems to insert her fickle whims into the math.

This is exactly how those who have disdain for the topic could have phrased it.

X Wing intelligence is one thing. Social intelligence is another. Do not allow an excess of the former to excuse a dearth of the latter.