c/ped from regions swing thread

Staton said:

Wait, if the bannerman is canceled, you can just initiate his response again can't you?

Lars said:

I think it depends on if he is in play (which you could) or if he is in your hand (which discards him like a canceled event I believe)

the lord of stag said:

IDK - Bannerman is a trigger rsponding to an action. deson't the window close after you respond and then the opponent responds with a cacnel? I mena - can you really respond multiple times to the same trigger with teh same effect? seems counterintutive.

actually now that I think about it a little harder this all might be moot because of the one reponse per card per trigger rule. However, I'm still unsure what happens to the bannerman when we gets canceled after being played from hand.

Stag is right that you can't respond multiple times to the same trigger with same effect of the -same- card. If you had two Banner for the Storm's in your hand, your opponent can cancel you playing one, but you can still play the other (unless he or she cancels that as well). As for what happens to the Bannerman, he would just stay in your hand after a cancel for the same reason the Honor Guard's stays in your hand if an opponent cancels you playing it under someone else's control: the only thing being cancelled is the opportunity of you being able to put it into play.

The cost of Banner for the Storm's effect is winning a power challenge. That's it. The triggered effect is that you may play it from your hand or from play as an attachment to a HB character. This is what your opponent is cancelling. When someone cancels a triggered effect, the effect never happens, right? So if your opponent cancels Banner for the Storm's effect, it was never put into play and never became an attachment.

I think the confusion arose because the Bannerman leaving your hand is seen as a cost, but it's not. Most of the time cards leaving from your hand for a triggered effect is a cost, but that's because they are usually events. Banner for the Storm is unlike event cards, where part of the cost is putting them into play. As we know, payment for costs can never be taken back or be undone; ergo the confusion.

I really hope ktom doesn't see this and tell me I'm dead wrong, lol.

Yeah, I forgot about the one trigger per effect. However, fatmouse is right about the card staying in your hand or in play.

For confirmation, a little bit of clean-up on the language and one nuance that has yet to be addressed:

- Banner for the Storm does not have any costs. You do not have to "do" anything in order to trigger the Response. Costs involve a change in state, an expenditure of resources, or something like that. Winning the power challenge is a play restriction for the Response, not a cost.

- If the Response is canceled when triggered from in play, it stays as a character and you cannot trigger it again, until you win another power challenge, because of the "one Response per trigger" rule.

- If the Response is canceled when triggered from your hand, the card stays in your hand. As already described, the card does not leave you hand as part of the effect's initiation, only as part of the effect's resolution. Cancels stop the resolution, so canceling the Response stops it from leaving your hand. This is true for all character abilities triggered from hand at this time. It is different from event cards which must be played from your hand as part of their initiation. Because they leave your hand as part of the initiation (instead of part of resolution), they are discarded when canceled.

- If Banner for the Storm is triggered from hand and canceled, it stays in hand (as described above) And you could then play it again. It does not actually run afoul of the "one Response per trigger rule." The snarky explanation is "can you PROOVE that was the only copy in my hand?" The less snarky, but more technical, explanation is that the cards do not actually count as the same individual card when they are not in play. It is related to the fact that cards are not considered actionable by effects or game rules when they are not in play, unless the text specifically says they are. Look at it this way: you cannot declare characters in your hand as attacker or defender because in your hand, they are not subject to the rules for declaring "your characters" in challenges. The "one Response per trigger" rule essentially does not apply to cards triggered from your hand - unless there is a specific limit stated on the card.

ktom said:

glad I asked. thanks for clearing that all up, though I'm sure we went over it all before. I just couldn't remember....obviously

I have a question related to this, about Pentoshi Guildmaster.

Response: After you win a challenge by 4 or more total STR, return Pentoshi Guildmaster from your discard pile to your hand. Then, you may pay 3 gold to put Pentoshi Guildmaster into play from your hand.

If Pentoshi Guildmaster response is canceled, could I trigger it again?

In fact it all comes down to the question: does the "one repsonse per trigger" rule apply only to cards in play ?

Comm said:

In this case, you could not. Remember the snarky answer above about "can you PROOVE it was the only copy"? There is some truth to the snark in that it is really the "hidden information" part of the card in hand that keeps the "one Response per trigger" rule from applying. I didn't make that clear in the more technical explanation. In the case of the Guildmaster, the "open information" status of the discard pile applies the "one Response per trigger" rule in a way that it isn't applied to your hand.

Comm said:

No. As stated above, it applies to any card whose identity is open information during gameplay. The "one Response per trigger" rule has always been ruled and interpreted to mean "you can only use the Response on an individual card one time per trigger." Multiple copies of the same card can be triggered one time each. So "in play" is not the decisive factor; "open information to all players" is. Technically, cards in your hand, deck or Shadows (the "hidden information" areas) are not "individually identifiable cards" in the sense that until they have been played, they could be anything. But their identity is fixed by playing them - and stays fixed when they go to the dead or discard pile - face up, in a specific order and open to all players' observations.

Don't draw the line at "it's not in play." Draw it at " the game says everyone knows what that card is."

OK, thanks for your reply ktom.

I understand the logic. In particular, I will remember your last sentence " the game says everyone knows what that card is" and how you highlighted the game .

Because, if I have only one card left in my hand, which is a Bannerman, and it is canceled, then the snarky player could argue that "everyone knows what that card is". But from the game point of view, this single card in my hand has no identity, and so should everyone consider it.

However, I hope I will not meet this kind of snarky player in a tournament because they usually tend to dislike rulings like this one.

Comm said:

That's it exactly. According to the game, it is hidden information. That you can easily deduce it has no bearing on how the rules are applied.

Comm said:

Yep. ~ And this is why jerks and idiots should be required to wear signs.