1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:The last clone army I faced really screwed me over by saving the BARC speeder for last and parking it range 1 of 4 or 5 of my B1s. It had comms jammer but otherwise naked. It completely destroyed my plans for round 2 and ultimately led 3 full B1 units to their death that round.
I actually may try this one day.
Still think sidecar should give armor 1
Edited by Tirion1 hour ago, Tirion said:They just can't stand up to any fire
You’re not making sense.
Sure they can; they have 5 hp cover 1, red dice. That’s an equivalent of at least 11 hits required to down it (1 more than 5 clones) and until that happens it fights at full strength, which clones do not.
Yes, clones can benefit from surge tokens, when they’re available. Benefits from other unit tokens is entirely reliant on those units being the first mover AND in range.
36 minutes ago, Tirion said:Still think sidecar should give armor 1
I could not agree more and I wish I could like this post a million times. Why FFG decreased the speed and then gave it no extra armor or even an extra health is beyond me. The armor 1 would make these really survivable or maybe an extra 2 health would be nice
1 hour ago, Derrault said:You’re not making sense.
Sure they can; they have 5 hp cover 1, red dice. That’s an equivalent of at least 11 hits required to down it (1 more than 5 clones) and until that happens it fights at full strength, which clones do not.
Yes, clones can benefit from surge tokens, when they’re available. Benefits from other unit tokens is entirely reliant on those units being the first mover AND in range.
not at least 11, crits are everywhere my friend. But still the point stands, for their point value they cannot hold up to fire well. My opinion is cool if you disagree
3 hours ago, Derrault said:You’re not making sense.
Sure they can; they have 5 hp cover 1, red dice. That’s an equivalent of at least 11 hits required to down it (1 more than 5 clones) and until that happens it fights at full strength, which clones do not.
Yes, clones can benefit from surge tokens, when they’re available. Benefits from other unit tokens is entirely reliant on those units being the first mover AND in range.
After 3 DAM they suffer a vehicle damage token.
You're also not taking into account clones having cover 2, nor their lower profiles.
A squad of 5 clones with z6 after 3 wounds is attacking with 6 white + 1 black, or 2 red +1 black with the DC. Not too bad. They can still generate tokens, use support fire, and can take all objectives.
I think vehicles would see more play if there were more objectives they could use.
Maybe the meta will balance out if we had say 3 universal objectives, 2 troop only objectives, and 2 vehicle only objectives. ATM we have 3 universal and 2 troop.
Legion as it is designed, is bad for vehicles, period. Vehicle based objects would help. A huge point reduction for them would as well. Restricting lists to 8 total activations so taking a big expensive unit doesn't place the list at a huge disadvantage would help too.
Right now, you take a vehicle to have fun, not to be effective.
58 minutes ago, Mep said:Legion as it is designed, is bad for vehicles, period. Vehicle based objects would help. A huge point reduction for them would as well. Restricting lists to 8 total activations so taking a big expensive unit doesn't place the list at a huge disadvantage would help too.
Right now, you take a vehicle to have fun, not to be effective.
Don't completely agree. Did the devs do a good job preventing min maxing? No, but ffg never has.
Is a max of 8 activations the answer? No, as that limits list building in a bad way imo.
Do we need more vehicle objectives? yes.
are vehicles only for fun? Definitely not, the atst imo is a viable unit. The atrt is imo just plain old good. The land speeder rush is a legitimate strategy.
2 hours ago, Tirion said:not at least 11, crits are everywhere my friend. But still the point stands, for their point value they cannot hold up to fire well. My opinion is cool if you disagree
Yeah, sure crits over the River Kwai are everywhere, but it’s utterly implausible that one would suffer 11 crits and 0 hits.
1 hour ago, lologrelol said:After 3 DAM they suffer a vehicle damage token.
You're also not taking into account clones having cover 2, nor their lower profiles.
A squad of 5 clones with z6 after 3 wounds is attacking with 6 white + 1 black, or 2 red +1 black with the DC. Not too bad. They can still generate tokens, use support fire, and can take all objectives.
I think vehicles would see more play if there were more objectives they could use.
Maybe the meta will balance out if we had say 3 universal objectives, 2 troop only objectives, and 2 vehicle only objectives. ATM we have 3 universal and 2 troop.
Worst case scenario is a weapon damaged, and that’s really not a big deal; losing at most two dice on either the twin laser gunner or the ion gunner. If you picked the RPS-6, you can’t lose more than one white die. Ie barely an inconvenience.
Yeah, I’m not taking into account cover 2 because they don’t always get cover 2 (nor would anyone in their right mind be blindly firing into cover 2).
I agree, once the new vehicle cards come out, vehicles will see a substantial increase in usage.
10 hours ago, Tirion said:Don't completely agree. Did the devs do a good job preventing min maxing? No, but ffg never has.
Is a max of 8 activations the answer? No, as that limits list building in a bad way imo.
Do we need more vehicle objectives? yes.
are vehicles only for fun? Definitely not, the atst imo is a viable unit. The atrt is imo just plain old good. The land speeder rush is a legitimate strategy.
Sadly the activation advantage is so important in this game it limits list building in a big way. Any expensive unit needs to do a lot to be considered, and there are many expensive units out there that simply aren't worth taking over a few cheaper activations. 8 activations is 100 pts per unit, which puts many armor pieces still at the way to expensive range. Activation limits would fix a lot of the problems in this game, like making half of those units worth taking.
17 minutes ago, Mep said:Sadly the activation advantage is so important in this game it limits list building in a big way. Any expensive unit needs to do a lot to be considered, and there are many expensive units out there that simply aren't worth taking over a few cheaper activations. 8 activations is 100 pts per unit, which puts many armor pieces still at the way to expensive range. Activation limits would fix a lot of the problems in this game, like making half of those units worth taking.
I think limiting activation is a bad way to fix the problem. All that does is limits creativity.
#1 Though, I agree something needs to be done. At a minimum, the player with fewer activation should be able to decide blue vs red player (rather than point cost).
#2 From here, I would then give the player with fewer activation a free 'skip' for every 2 activations they are short by. This is checked at the beginning of the game and the player cannot gain more skips if they lose more units (this still allows players an incentive to wipe units out in game).
#3 If a player has more than 3+ activations than their opponent, their opponent gains an additional X during the scenario selection phase (a total of 3 X vs 2 X)
Edited by R3dReVenge11 hours ago, Mep said:Right now, you take a vehicle to have fun, not to be effective.
That’s funny, but I play Legion to have fun, not to be effective. If I want to be effective, I work (job, projects that have to be done, maintenance etc)
It’s not a career, and outside of the legion community no one cares how well I do in a tournament. I’d rather just enjoy my time off rather than stress about my time off.
12 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:That’s funny, but I play Legion to have fun, not to be effective. If I want to be effective, I work (job, projects that have to be done, maintenance etc)
It’s not a career, and outside of the legion community no one cares how well I do in a tournament. I’d rather just enjoy my time off rather than stress about my time off.
It seems like you lack understanding.
25 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:That’s funny, but I play Legion to have fun, not to be effective. If I want to be effective, I work (job, projects that have to be done, maintenance etc)
It’s not a career, and outside of the legion community no one cares how well I do in a tournament. I’d rather just enjoy my time off rather than stress about my time off.
Agreed, of all the things one needs to win at in life, star wars toys isn't one of them. These expensive star wars toys not being effective at the game they are suppose to be played in though, just isn't much as much fun as they should be.
BTW, one of the best ways to inspire creativity, is to set limitations.
Edited by Mep48 minutes ago, Mep said:Agreed, of all the things one needs to win at in life, star wars toys isn't one of them. These expensive star wars toys not being effective at the game they are suppose to be played in though, just isn't much as much fun as they should be.
BTW, one of the best ways to inspire creativity, is to set limitations.
I guess I don’t understand that. Maybe it’s because I haven’t played with the republic forces yet. I was getting results and joy out of the AT-ST back before the point changes. I had that walker in all my lists from the dawn of legion until I started dabbling in armies that couldn’t take it.
I also don’t follow the limitation and creativity thing. I don’t recall saying anything about limiting or not limiting anything.
19 hours ago, Tirion said:To each their own though I think the survivability obi brings to the entire list is way more valuable than an activation.
Besides what is your answer to force users. Jedi Luke woke just eat you
Obi is 4 wounds fewer than 2 BARC's. I don't need guardian because they spend the early turns shooting at the BARC's. That means nobody gets suppressed on the way up.
It's not like pierce would do me any good in that situation. I'd either run like a weenie, because it's 200 points of doom, or if I can't run, dogpile him and pop "call me captain". He can only disengage from a melee with exactly one enemy unit, and can't kill more than one a turn. Three such units means he can't even force push them away.
2 hours ago, grandmoffjoe said:Obi is 4 wounds fewer than 2 BARC's. I don't need guardian because they spend the early turns shooting at the BARC's. That means nobody gets suppressed on the way up.
It's not like pierce would do me any good in that situation. I'd either run like a weenie, because it's 200 points of doom, or if I can't run, dogpile him and pop "call me captain". He can only disengage from a melee with exactly one enemy unit, and can't kill more than one a turn. Three such units means he can't even force push them away.
I meant with guardian and soresu
7 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:#2 From here, I would then give the player with fewer activation a free 'skip' for every 2 activations they are short by. This is checked at the beginning of the game and the player cannot gain more skips if they lose more units (this still allows players an incentive to wipe units out in game).
I used to like this idea quite a lot. Especially in the sniper wars days before the clone wars. I don't think it would work now though. Republic units are really good. Their limiting factor is their activation count. If you allow them to skip you will remove one of their few disadvantages.
7 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:I also don’t follow the limitation and creativity thing. I don’t recall saying anything about limiting or not limiting anything.
You didn't. It was a general commit to something else, hence all the line spaces.
On 2/19/2020 at 1:28 AM, ScummyRebel said:That’s funny, but I play Legion to have fun, not to be effective. If I want to be effective, I work (job, projects that have to be done, maintenance etc)
Well that's a bit of a cop-out. We are on a Legion discussion forum to discuss the state of the game. A better game will lead to more fun.
Edited by lologrelol14 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:That’s funny, but I play Legion to have fun, not to be effective. If I want to be effective, I work (job, projects that have to be done, maintenance etc)
It’s not a career, and outside of the legion community no one cares how well I do in a tournament. I’d rather just enjoy my time off rather than stress about my time off.
It’s not that vehicles are ineffective, it’s that most players apparently lack the wherewithal to understand how to use them.
No different than any unit selection, you need to know why you’re taking a unit and what you plan to do with it, within the context of the larger force.
On 2/18/2020 at 12:26 PM, Tirion said:On 2/18/2020 at 10:11 AM, grandmoffjoe said:Obi is 4 wounds fewer than 2 BARC's. I don't need guardian because they spend the early turns shooting at the BARC's. That means nobody gets suppressed on the way up.
It's not like pierce would do me any good in that situation. I'd either run like a weenie, because it's 200 points of doom, or if I can't run, dogpile him and pop "call me captain". He can only disengage from a melee with exactly one enemy unit, and can't kill more than one a turn. Three such units means he can't even force push them away.
I meant with guardian and soresu
I meant that having bikes negates the need for those, because they're shooting at the bikes. Those bikes have cover 1 always and are 4 more wounds total to deal with. The only vehicle damage I even care about is the weapon one. Giving up an aim on the turn before they finish you off isn't a huge deal, and I wasn't gonna do a regular move anyway once the bike is in range.
Also soresu only works if you set it up, which means you gotta activate Obi early, and guardian without soresu is a great way to save 13 point models by wounding a 180 point model.
On 2/18/2020 at 6:30 PM, lologrelol said:Well that's a bit of a cop-out. We are on a Legion discussion forum to discuss the state of the game. A better game will lead to more fun.
His/her comment shows that they have a lack of understanding.
I read his comment as this "If you don't play the game the way I do, THAN YOU'RE WRONG, OR YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG."
On 2/18/2020 at 11:59 PM, Derrault said:It’s not that vehicles are ineffectiv e, it’s that most players apparently lack the wherewithal to understand how to use them.
No different than any unit selection, you need to know why you’re taking a unit and what you plan to do with it, within the context of the larger force.
You've been claiming that the T-47 is one of the strongest units in the game for 2 years now despite evidence stating that you're wrong... FFG dropped it by 30 points and people STILL don't take it in a competitive environment 🤣 .
10 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:His/her comment shows that they have a lack of understanding.
I read his comment as this "If you don't play the game the way I do, THAN YOU'RE WRONG, OR YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG."
You've been claiming that the T-47 is one of the strongest units in the game for 2 years now despite evidence stating that you're wrong... FFG dropped it by 30 points and people STILL don't take it in a competitive environment 🤣 .
I went 2-1 at my prime, using two. And it would have been 3-0 but for a tactical mistake not tied to unit choice. So, objectively, I know it’s good from actual play.
Yeah, I get it, you’re prejudiced against it and won’t change your mind until the groupthink moves over. It just makes you stubborn and wrong.
3 minutes ago, Derrault said:I went 2-1 at my prime, using two. AInd it would have been 3-0 but for a tactical mistake not tied to unit choice. So, objectively, I know it’s good from actual play.
Yeah, I get it, you’re prejudiced against it and won’t change your mind until the groupthink moves over. It just makes you stubborn and wrong.
It's ok friend, believe what you like.
