The crux of both of my major factions, I am absolutely horrible at using. Give me something zippy, I do fine. Give me an X-Wing, I can't fly my way out of a hangar without stressing myself or getting blocked.
What is it you flyboys do to actually make these quad winged sods respond to your commands? To me they never feel flexible or able to avoid damage enough to satisfy my needs, but remain the bread and butter of the factions that I play. I feel shame that I cannot appropriately handle the namesake of the game right. ****, give me a _Y-Wing_ of any faction and I'll perform better.
What gives, folks?
Why am I just so awful at flying X-Wings?
X-Wings: Why am I so bad at them?
Hey bud.
Put 5 of them next to each other in a 3 by 2. Go slow. Point all 5 guns at something.
Watch it die.
Lose the game cuz positioning is terrible.
Next time do the same thing, but watch it die, but line up the next target.
Next time do the same thing, but now change up your approach just a bit so you can block after the first 2 ships die. Then you'll win.
Given it that you are aware of the main differences between Xwings and Ywings (Hitpoints, maneuver, no turret).
Xwings need a different approach, especially if your opponent has some swarmy list. They simply pop easier and faster than ywings and so make it more likely to have one less in the first round of engagement. Only 2 schields make them also more vunerable to crits.
Consequence: only joust if it is really a good choice.
I almost want to say 2 green dice is awkward. Not consistent like 1 green die ships like Y-Wings or B-Wings, but you can't highroll as well as a 3 green dice ship like a Fang or Silencer.
But then again, I generally do well with TIE/sf, and those are 2-green ships... And I love all the toys generic T-70s get these days...
I tend to think everyone has a style of flying, and not every ship fits that style. Y-Wings have tools and turrets, as do TIE/sf, and X-Wings kinda don't. Some folks are Soontir Fel players, some are Fenn Rau. Some folks are Striker players, some are generic Interceptor players. I've seen folks onhere arguing that either side of that Planetary Sentinel/Alpha Interceptor pair should be cheaper than the other. I think they're probably best at the same
So where does this leave the humble T-65? I dunno.
Actively use boost the turns before the turn you first engage. Or the turn you first engage boost is good for blocks if you can spare a gun to do it, usually cant but sometimes its worth it. Boost is critical for adjusting the range, angle, lanes, and overlapping fire with which you engage. Dont over use it but dont ignore its existence. Also use boost after something tries to disengage, these xwings are fast and keep a ton of pressure on. K turns arent always correct either though they are on your dial for a reason, feel free to 4 forward or 3 bank/turn boost recycle if the alternative is parking with no mods in an angry ships rear arc etc. Dont run them in a box of ships unless you 100% know you can force a joust that you will win. Forcing jousts is difficult without stalling (which is against the rules) if your lists in a box formation. Loose net is usually more flexible against the majority of lists and is able to spread out or collapse back together thanks to how wonderfully mobile t65s are. Also helps you minimize k turns talons and unmodified shots mid game, but most importantly is harder to easily flank or control drag through obstacles. Though it takes practice to get all your guns on target in a loose net and to avoid over extending one ship, it pays off big time once you learn how to do it.
What type of lists have you been running them in? Not to help you list build, just to answer your question better.
Read the starfighter mafia xwing blog.
Edited by Boom OwlSeconding @Boom Owl
I am somebody who uses T-65s a lot and generally do okay with them.
Early positioning is important to setup a favourable attack. Use that boost.
I rarely box my ships, preferring a loose formation. It allows more options to counter my opponent’s position. I can switch which ship is my flank, or spread my arcs to catch an ace.
T-65s will go down fast if you put them in front of too many guns.
I've been doing pretty decently with 4 heroic red squad vets with hull upgrade. I deploy in a block but sometimes fly them in pairs until engagement, letting me attack from a few angles and meaning I can swing round or run away with them in more varied directions.
Sometimes I will aim for the block, other times I just have enough guns threatening likely end spots for aces that they just cant sit there and trade with me. 8 health T70s backed up by heroic are surprisingly tanky
T65's I dont really have much like with, so cant comment on them.
One thing I’ve found X-Wings to be good at is spreading out damage.
Take 4 damage in a turn? No problem. Sit back at R3 and shove a healthy one in their face. They have to choose between mathematically better attacks and focus fire. Getting used to it takes a little while but playing the whole game of “which target do you attack?” can really pay off
Without knowing how you’re using them, I can just say they’re probably the most versatile jousters, which is how they should probably be used. Their dials and access to both repositions allows them to range control really well. Their health is a commodity to be spent.
3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:One thing I’ve found X-Wings to be good at is spreading out damage.
Take 4 damage in a turn? No problem. Sit back at R3 and shove a healthy one in their face. They have to choose between mathematically better attacks and focus fire. Getting used to it takes a little while but playing the whole game of “which target do you attack?” can really pay off
Quoting for effect.
This is how you fly X-Wings.
It's the beginning and end of the squad.
Everytime I set a dial or choose an action with my t70s, my question is this: " what does my opponent want to do here ?", and, " How can I obfuscate that ?".
Are they trying finish off my one X over here? Run and boost behind a rock and/or focus.
Cycle-in his healthy buddy and take a target lock action to lure the opponent to shoot the easy target and not the one on fire.
You can get really good at this with 4 and 5 X-Wings on the table.
Mostly: you have to swallow action starvation. You're gonna be throwing mostly single-modded or NO MODs for most of your games to keep the pressure on.
Stress is part of a jousters' life.
Flew against some X-Wings today (3 Blues + Leia Falcon) and lost. Probably a closer game than the score seemed, but my opponent moved very well.
One big secret: don't be afraid to use those X-Wings as chunky A-Wings and Focus-Boost. The range control, the arc-bending, the blocking: all quite handy. Only a small 3-rounder, but those X-Wings handed my Fangs my only loss on the day.
*edit*
Thinking about that game: in some ways, my Fang green dice felt average against this X-Wing Player, but that's not really accurate. I had a lot fewer Range 1 defenses that game, and more often got blocked. Even if luck was a little more against me, positioning causes some things to look like luck, but really it isn't.
Edited by theBitterFig15 hours ago, Bucknife said:Everytime I set a dial or choose an action with my t70s, my question is this: " what does my opponent want to do here ?", and, " How can I obfuscate that ?".
Are they trying finish off my one X over here? Run and boost behind a rock and/or focus.
Cycle-in his healthy buddy and take a target lock action to lure the opponent to shoot the easy target and not the one on fire.
You can get really good at this with 4 and 5 X-Wings on the table.
Mostly: you have to swallow action starvation. You're gonna be throwing mostly single-modded or NO MODs for most of your games to keep the pressure on.
Stress is part of a jousters' life.
This sums up my play style, I really cant stress enough how great heroic red sq vets with hull upgrade are at outlastint enemies.
50 points each for an 8 health ship, with heroic helping quite often on evades.
When one of them limps out of the initial engagement with 1 health, it forces tough target priority.
They have boost and barrel roll, a dial that has no crippling limitations and turn around options that are wide enough to easily get a good time on target, enough red dice yo be relevant against any target and just enough durability to be difficult to consistently kill. You can use them as blockers, flankers, jousters and this flexibility allows you to call an audible based on your opponent's position and adjust quickly on the fly from "I need a blocker, turn in" to "actually a flanker could get good value, straight 4 + boost". The flexibility, generally good stats and reasonable cost reminds me of medium tanks on World of Tanks in that, if you only try to do 1 thing with them all game, they're going to seem bad as the main reason they're good is the ability to rapidly flex across roles.
We seem to be looking at both the T70 and T65 in the discussion. We should examine each separately.
3 minutes ago, librarian101 said:We seem to be looking at both the T70 and T65 in the discussion. We should examine each separately.
As a Resistance player, I fly almost exclusively T-70s... But T-65s have some interesting low-speed merit by comparison.
Everyone, I appreciate the replies here. Like a lot. It always seems like there's an intrinsic aspect of Incom's greatest that I continue to miss. I want to ask you guys a question about T-70s in particular though.
T-70 X-wing - Red Squadron Expert - 50
Red Squadron Expert - (44)
Heroic (1)
Integrated S-foils (Closed) (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (5)
T-70 X-wing - Red Squadron Expert - 50
Red Squadron Expert - (44)
Heroic (1)
Integrated S-foils (Closed) (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (5)
T-70 X-wing - Red Squadron Expert - 50
Red Squadron Expert - (44)
Heroic (1)
Integrated S-foils (Closed) (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (5)
T-70 X-wing - Red Squadron Expert - 50
Red Squadron Expert - (44)
Heroic (1)
Integrated S-foils (Closed) (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (5)
Total: 200/200
View in the X-Wing Squad Builder
Should I? When I first saw that T-70s were going to be able to fly **** near exclusively S-Foils closed, I was very tempted to learn how to fly HLC-Wings, and I do still think there's considerable merit. With the ability to barrel roll into a focus or boost, you can really consistently get bullseyes on target and you'll almost always be rolling four dice if you're really accurate. I figure, this is better and easier to do with multiple X-Wings and to know when to open those S-Foils up. (Though the concept of flexing on your opponent and never opening them just, sounds way too spicy.)
___________________________________________________
But push comes to shove, I think I understand what you guys are trying to tell me. If I were to truncate it...
1: X-Wings are not meant to do one thing, but anything you need them to
at that moment.
They need to be kept flexible for your and their own good, otherwise you're going to lose the **** out of them.
2: The ones I fly, T-70s, are fast. You're going to be able to apply consistent pressure with the boost, and any time you can shoot at something is good.
3: Stress is part of a jouster's life, but I'm not really catching the intent here. Can somebody explain?
I want to get good at X-Wings. They deserve to be understood, and as a Resistance Pilot tried and true it feels shameful that I do not.
Without seeing how you fly, it's difficult to give advice. But those T-70's look pretty solid, and Heroic should help make them pretty forgiving as well.
The problem is it's quite easy to get quad ace lists at the moment (or at least quad Initiative 4-5), meaning the numbers game isn't always going to be in your favour like it would be with most other heavy swarms.
As elite generics, the Experts are at the point where they should be able to arc dodge a lot of other generics, but will need to be used predictively against aces. So you're going to need to be able to play the list both ways.
Against Aces, blocking really is key. You need to deny your opponent actions (especially repositioning), set up killboxes and focusing your fire. Hugging obstacles may help, because the more you can crowd your opponent's movement space, the better.
I like the inclusion of HLC. Used it on Scyks at last year's Open, and it's a great deterrent that can really ruin the day of medium / large base ships. Don't try to make the shot come off at the expense of other actions, but if you get the shot, brilliant.
What else can I say? Try and keep them all pointed in the same direction and at the same target for as long as possible. If they scatter, it will be easier for higher Initiative opponents to pick them off one by one.
Here's a question: do you shoot more than your opponents do? That's generally an indication of getting good value. tally up your red dice and green dice vs your opponents red and green.
Boosting is needed for the Xwing, but I also like slow rolling or pushing all 5 into a target.
Shoot things, kill them, after the first 2 turns (maybe boost), you should be focusing almost all the time. Focus rule.
----
Try 4B and a Z also. or Awing, or Hawk or Attack Shuttle. Maybe you just like a different type of speed list. 4BAttackshuttle is a great list.
3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:Without seeing how you fly, it's difficult to give advice. But those T-70's look pretty solid, and Heroic should help make them pretty forgiving as well.
The problem is it's quite easy to get quad ace lists at the moment (or at least quad Initiative 4-5), meaning the numbers game isn't always going to be in your favour like it would be with most other heavy swarms.
As elite generics, the Experts are at the point where they should be able to arc dodge a lot of other generics, but will need to be used predictively against aces. So you're going to need to be able to play the list both ways.
Against Aces, blocking really is key. You need to deny your opponent actions (especially repositioning), set up killboxes and focusing your fire. Hugging obstacles may help, because the more you can crowd your opponent's movement space, the better.
I like the inclusion of HLC. Used it on Scyks at last year's Open, and it's a great deterrent that can really ruin the day of medium / large base ships. Don't try to make the shot come off at the expense of other actions, but if you get the shot, brilliant.
What else can I say? Try and keep them all pointed in the same direction and at the same target for as long as possible. If they scatter, it will be easier for higher Initiative opponents to pick them off one by one.
Good advice all around, Gecko. I'll keep this in mind. I'm largely flying this list to understand how to fly Razor X-Wings, and I'm calling them that because their reliance on bullseye + S-foils closed, and having boost or focus+roll means they can be downright surgical. So the idea is to consider this the, "Standard" X-Wing build that I get skilled enough to just cough into other lists. HLC has consistently been the best cannon option in 2E for me... And always being able to roll a 4 is great.
Having tested it though, could seriously benefit from Advanced Optics, and I SINCERELY wish BB units that weren't BB-8 were Hyperspace Legal. I do not begin to understand why they are not. Like, at all.
3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:Here's a question: do you shoot more than your opponents do? That's generally an indication of getting good value. tally up your red dice and green dice vs your opponents red and green.
Boosting is needed for the Xwing, but I also like slow rolling or pushing all 5 into a target.
Shoot things, kill them, after the first 2 turns (maybe boost), you should be focusing almost all the time. Focus rule.
----
Try 4B and a Z also. or Awing, or Hawk or Attack Shuttle. Maybe you just like a different type of speed list. 4BAttackshuttle is a great list.
Now the Focus rule I'm intimately familiar with. In fact, if I'm out of firing arc and so is my foe, my default tends to be TL for when I pull around soon, and end up with double mods.
4 minutes ago, KCDodger said:Good advice all around, Gecko. I'll keep this in mind. I'm largely flying this list to understand how to fly Razor X-Wings, and I'm calling them that because their reliance on bullseye + S-foils closed, and having boost or focus+roll means they can be downright surgical. So the idea is to consider this the, "Standard" X-Wing build that I get skilled enough to just cough into other lists. HLC has consistently been the best cannon option in 2E for me... And always being able to roll a 4 is great.
Having tested it though, could seriously benefit from Advanced Optics, and I SINCERELY wish BB units that weren't BB-8 were Hyperspace Legal. I do not begin to understand why they are not. Like, at all.Now the Focus rule I'm intimately familiar with. In fact, if I'm out of firing arc and so is my foe, my default tends to be TL for when I pull around soon, and end up with double mods.
Try the BBBB AttackShuttle list. Its one of my my tip top competitive lists, Tier1. I'd be willing to play pretty much anything with it and expect at least 50-55% chance of winning. (Its good). One can make it better, but at its core its just a really good benchmark. It'll be like 5Xwing, but will play a lot differently in flight pattern. 15 red dice solves a lot of problems.
(Lists with a lot of Init3-4 are harder, but doable with blocking)
On 2/16/2020 at 10:45 PM, theBitterFig said:Flew against some X-Wings today (3 Blues + Leia Falcon) and lost. Probably a closer game than the score seemed, but my opponent moved very well.
One big secret: don't be afraid to use those X-Wings as chunky A-Wings and Focus-Boost. The range control, the arc-bending, the blocking: all quite handy. Only a small 3-rounder, but those X-Wings handed my Fangs my only loss on the day.
*edit*
Thinking about that game: in some ways, my Fang green dice felt average against this X-Wing Player, but that's not really accurate. I had a lot fewer Range 1 defenses that game, and more often got blocked. Even if luck was a little more against me, positioning causes some things to look like luck, but really it isn't.
*waves* that was me
I definitely think the value of the X-Wing platform is in making good use of the S-Foils. 40 points is cheap for a 3 dice gun, but nowadays there are even cheaper ways to get raw jousting power, so you really need to be careful with them. They are pretty fragile and losing one in the first engagement is rarely worth whatever you manage to trade for it (especially if you don't even get to shoot before you die). Once the enemy formation has been disrupted, their mix of maneuverability, health and damage output starts to shine. Leia ended up pairing well with them too - her pilot ability often let me have a range 1 + focus shot with one of my X-Wings after a K-Turn / Talon roll, which paid off big on a few occasions. The key part was approaching from multiple angles and trying to stagger turnarounds to keep pressure on but also to cycle ships in and out of danger to keep the damage spread around.
7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:Try the BBBB AttackShuttle list. Its one of my my tip top competitive lists, Tier1. I'd be willing to play pretty much anything with it and expect at least 50-55% chance of winning. (Its good). One can make it better, but at its core its just a really good benchmark. It'll be like 5Xwing, but will play a lot differently in flight pattern. 15 red dice solves a lot of problems.
(Lists with a lot of Init3-4 are harder, but doable with blocking)
It was interesting to try out. Low initiative but eight health per unit barely cares and then they can maneuver more tightly than almost anything else.
9 hours ago, KCDodger said:3: Stress is part of a jouster's life, but I'm not really catching the intent here.
You don't have 1 hard turns to keep pressure on without taking stress. Your best is a 2 turn + B.roll backwards (which T70's can do with a linked...focus better than a t65 roll with no mods).
So, you have to accept that there's a turn or two where your best utilization of your primary weapon and obfuscation of enemy target priority it to take the k-turn or tallon with the stress and no mods.
Some people are really, really averse to this basic precept of X-Wings, and those people should probably stick to Optics A-Wings or something else with "less variance".
Keep it up, bro. Even just one X in a list is a blast as long as you find a way to enjoy them.
X-Wings are:
a) predictable due to the single arc and average dial and;
b) very middle of the road in most things, and such such cost a lot to not excel in any one area.
Basically they are too good to be a cheap ship, but not quite good enough to single handedly win you the game. They tend to do best when you keep them as low cost as possible, to get a reasonably priced 3 dice attack, or load them up to be a supreme, high initiative jouster with torps and/or regen.
6 hours ago, KCDodger said:It was interesting to try out. Low initiative but eight health per unit barely cares and then they can maneuver more tightly than almost anything else.
So how does that feel compared to 5x? Same idea, different execution.
One of my primary pieces of advice is to never meet a joust straight on with a group T-70's, even if the set up in front of you and it's favourable for you. I will bank into the edge of the board and then hard 2 back for the engagement. You obviously may loose a couple of arcs on some ships but usually you will still have all arcs on one or 2. Which is more than enough to focus on for an open engagement.
This then gives me more options for the next turn, if I think they are going to K-turn behind I can turn hard 2 back and then focus barrel roll back to target. If the distance is still moderate and I'm going second I usually have all of my K-turns and talons available. If I'm first I can push one forward for the block and leave the other back to 1 forward and focus BR back to block a Talon roll.