1 minute ago, Benmartin said:

Right - that was my reading as well.

But I think it illustrates your point - that Spending a Command (Dial/Token) is different from it's Resolution.

And, if Karneck is right about what Piett does (assuming I'm reading his posts correctly), then Piett *changes* one of those Tokens into a Dial, and then you *could* use two Tokens in this case, because one of them would really be a Dial....

But if @Karneck was right and it was changed into a dial, then you tried to resolve the originally-two-tokens as a token+dial, you're resolving that command as more than just a 'token only', so Piett...ummm... un -triggers and doesn't work again and you are back to two tokens?

I dunno, I guess I'm not really sure what basis his idea of the token changing into a dial is coming from, to understand the implications there.

(IMHO it's much easier if it just works as written - you're spending a token, but for purpose of resolving that command only it's treated as a dial. Anything else that may or may not happen still sees it as a TOKEN SPENT. Which is what Piett's card says and seems to be the easiest way for everything to work without weird interactions in other places. But does mean Krennic can only re-roll 2 reds.)

2 minutes ago, xanderf said:

But if @Karneck was right and it was changed into a dial, then you tried to resolve the originally-two-tokens as a token+dial, you're resolving that command as more than just a 'token only', so Piett...ummm... un -triggers and doesn't work again and you are back to two tokens?

I think you're right there - I have been thinking about Dial+Token as if you are adding the Token to the Dial, but I guess you need the declaration as a single point for any of this to work correctly....

42 minutes ago, xanderf said:

What his text says is instead:

"[CF resolve header] While attacking at medium-long range, if you spent a [CF] dial, you may also reroll any number of red dice in your attack pool. If you spent a [CF] token, you may also reroll up to 2 red dice in your attack pool."

(Emphasis mine, of course)

Piett says "that ship resolves that command as if it had spent a dial of the same type instead." (emphasis mine)

I'm saying that the question that is being asked in Krennic's text is: what did you spend to resolve this command ? Piett says, while you didn't really spend a dial to resolve this command, you treat it as if you did spend a dial to resolve this command, so, in answer to Krennic's question, you spent a dial to resolve this command. Ah, says Krennic, you can reroll all your red dice. 😉

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

You spend a CF token and exhaust Piett to treat it as a CF dial resolution . [CF resolve], you add a red die (token as dial). Krennic triggers as you've resolved a CF command, he checks to see what was spent* - and only a token was spent .

But the question is "what was spent?"

Because Piett's effect says "that ship resolves that command as if it had spent a dial of the same type instead." So if we resolve Krennic's ability as part of resolving the concentrate fire command , we "spent" a Concentrate Fire Dial. Because as far as resolving the command goes, that's what we did. But if we resolve Krennic outside resolving the concentrate fire command, Piett's ability doesn't affect us, so we spent a Token.

So which is it? Does Krennic happen inside the "resolving a CF Command bubble"?

Either interpretation seems reasonable at first glance. This is somewhere we could do with a FAQ. And I'm not sure it is worth arguing the point in detail...

So let's do a nice, deep dive, arguing the point in detail; to the Rules! Commands are resolved either "during" (Navigate and CF) or "after" (Squadron, Repair) a particular step. "During" is not defined in the rules. "Effects with a command icon... can be resolved once while the ship is resolving a matching command." and "A 'while' effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event."

This tells us that Krennic's ability is resolved " during " the process of resolving a CF command. But that doesn't necessarily mean "as part of." So let's look at the other command header cards.

By my count there are 16 upgrade cards with a command header in the game (7 squadron, 4 navigate, 3 repair, 2 concentrate fire) and one objective (repair). Roughly speaking (and these are far from absolute)

• Two trigger while resolving the command but have their effect later (Engine Techs, Quantum Storm),
• Three have a one-off effect while resolving the command, so do something right then, and then are done (Captain Rex, RLBs, Repair Teams),
• The rest have an effect that persists throughout the time you are resolving the command (Admiral Chiraneau, Boosted Comms, Corrupter, Flight Controllers, Vector, Aux Shield Teams, Projection Experts, Abandoned Mining Faclity, Rakehell, Director Krennic, Nav Team, Ravager)

So a lot of the effects are sort of "wrapped up" within the command, and apply for the whole duration you are resolving that command. Ravager is a good example; let's say you used Piett on a CF token, to resolve a CF command, could you reroll a dice (not sure why you'd want to, but let's go with it)? No; because you are resolving the CF command - with the Ravager bonus - as if you spent a dial, and the Ravager bonus only works if you use a token.

Given all that... I'd say that Director Krennic's effect is part of resolving a concentrate fire command , (just as how Nav Team is part of resolving a navigate command, all the repair ones are part of resolving a Repair command) - it changes how that command works by adding a bonus effect to the normal one.

And if Director Krennic's effect is happening as part of resolving the command, Admiral Piett's effect applies. As far as Krennic is concerned, a CF dial was spent, not a token.

So if you Piett and Krennic, I'm going with you getting to re-roll all the dice.

But I can see why it is ambiguous, and wouldn't argue with a TO who ruled otherwise.

[ This post was brought to you by some excessive procrastination, and a spreadsheet. ]

@Grumbleduke Yes, I think that does present a second path to Krennic re-rolling everything.

That is either of:

• Karneck's suggestion that the CF token changes into a CF dial and is no longer a CF token. Clearly in that case Krennic re-rolls everything.
• If we understand "resolving a command" to, as a single step, fully and completely include everything that could chain off of it, such that 'that ship resolves that command as if' on Piett's card includes all triggered upgrades as if they were exactly the same thing as the base command resolution (add a die or re-roll a die in the case of CF). In that case as well Krennic re-rolls everything. That gives us some weird situations such as Quantum Storm or Engine Techs still in the 'resolving a command' step despite completing the action associated with the command, and crossing into another action (one maneuver to another maneuver), but I can't off the top of my head think of any problematic consequences of that. Orrrrrr...wait, maybe I can. Let's say you've got a Gladiator with Commander Vanto and Engine Techs on it. If we understand 'resolving a command' to fully include ALL triggered upgrades off it, then when you reveal a nav command and partially resolve it to add another notch to your maneuver, Vanto does not yet give you a token of your choice until your follow-up Engine Techs upgrade is ALSO finished, because you haven't 'fully completed resolving that command' until all upgrades triggered off it are done - by this reading. Correct? Hrmmm.

6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

That gives us some weird situations such as Quantum Storm or Engine Techs..

Those were in the other category; cards which have a trigger (when resolving the command) but have their effect later in the game; unlike most of the cards which have an effect that persists throughout resolving the command as part of doing so (and a few that have an effect that happens once and only once, while resolving the command but separately to it). Which is fairly clear from the text. The timing for Engine Techs is quite fun, and a lot of people get it wrong;

1. You declare or trigger engine techs while carrying out the main maneuver.
2. After executing your maneuver, you can then exhaust the card to carry out the second maneuver.

So, for example, if you were playing Rift Ambush ("Once per activation, after a ship executes a maneuver, if it is at distance 1-2 of the gravity rift, it must execute a speed-1 maneuver"), and the ship resolved a navigate command during its main maneuver, it could do the Rift Ambush maneuver and then exhaust Engine Techs, or it could do the Engine Techs maneuver first, and then do the Rift Ambush one (assuming both effects happen at the same time, so the player gets to choose).

Even more fun; if you forgot to spend your navigate token during your main maneuver, you could then do your Rift Ambush maneuver and spend your token then (as you are "during the "Determine Course" step of movement" even if it would have no effect on the maneuver for the first player), and that would trigger the option of exhausting Engine Techs after the maneuver.

Watching this is a train wreck. I've given my very detailed answer that clearly explains the process. Believe it or not, its not my job to explain the game in detail to you.

4 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

Those were in the other category; cards which have a trigger (when resolving the command) but have their effect later in the game; unlike most of the cards which have an effect that persists throughout resolving the command as part of doing so (and a few that have an effect that happens once and only once, while resolving the command but separately to it).

Right, but that's a distinction useful for the list, but not quite what the RRG says.

On pg 5 in 'Effect Use and Timing', it says:

"Effects with a command icon as a header, such as [nav], can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command ."

As I understand your argument to support Krennic's 'what was spent' check being a dial, it aligns with that rule, and suggests the 'effect with the command icon' remains being resolved only as long as the matching command is still resolving . In which case, in the case of (say) Demo + Vanto + Engine Techs, if you decide to resolve a nav command and want to trigger engine techs, you can't maneuver-with-nav, Vanto a CF token and shoot with it, and then ET another maneuver. Vanto triggers only on completion of resolving a command, which by the RRG means ET is holding the nav open in order to resolve the second maneuver on exhaust. So Vanto picking up a CF token can happen after the ET maneuver (and the nav command and everything that triggers off it and must resolve 'while the ship is resolving the matching command' is now fully resolved), but by that point it's too late for Demo to shoot.

If the Engine Tech upgrade DIDN'T have that header, of course, which ties it to resolving the command, and instead just said 'If you executed a nav command this turn, then you can exhaust...' the situation would be different, but since the RRG ties the header to the active resolution of the matching command, only...?

Right?

7 minutes ago, Karneck said:

Watching this is a train wreck.

So let's pile more into this.

And of course it isn't your job to explain things, and we appreciate all you do to explain things.

You did explain things clearly, but I think you may have missed a possible problem. Huge disclaimer: I don't think it matters at all - I agree with your conclusion, but my inner teacher says it isn't enough to get the right answer you need the right method.

The "this is clear" argument hinges on this part:

Quote

[the token] has now changed the token INTO a dial. It is no longer a token, it is now a dial.

And that is based on the Rules Reference quote:

Quote

If a dial, token, die, or other component is spent as part of a cards effects cost, that component does not also produce its normal effect.

Which seems perfectly straightforward. Except I'm not sure the CF token is being spent as part of Admiral Piett's effect cost.

Quote

When a friendly ship spends only a command token to resolve a command...

That's not a cost to trigger an effect, that's a timing clause. It tells you when you can trigger the effect. The cost is in the next part:

Quote

...you may exhaust this card to...

You are spending the token to resolve a command (which is what the wording says), not to resolve Piett's ability.

So the timing would be:

1. You are carrying out an attack. You get to the "Resolve Attack Effects" step,
2. You are now in the timing window to resolve a Concentrate Fire command, so you spend a command token (and only a token) to do so,
3. You are now in the timing window to resolve Admiral Pietts effect, so you exhaust his card to trigger his effect,
4. His effect persists throughout resolving the command (the time it takes to add a dice or reroll a dice, or perform any other part of resolving the command), and during that period, we all pretend you spent a dial, not a token,
5. While all that is going on, you are still in the "resolving a concentrate fire command" part of the attack, you can resolve Director Krennic's effect - as we are doing so as part of resolving the CF command, Piett's effect still applies, so as far as Krennic can tell you spent a dial - for all the rerolls you want.

The token didn't get turned into a dial (so you can't then spend the dial to get rid of all raid tokens or whatever - there may be other reasons for that).

But again, I don't think it matters. It's late, this is a silly, technical point to argue on, you are wonderful and I really appreciate all you do for the Armada community.

2 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

So the timing would be:

1. You are carrying out an attack. You get to the "Resolve Attack Effects" step,
2. You are now in the timing window to resolve a Concentrate Fire command, so you spend a command token (and only a token) to do so,
3. You are now in the timing window to resolve Admiral Pietts effect, so you exhaust his card to trigger his effect,
4. His effect persists throughout resolving the command (the time it takes to add a dice or reroll a dice, or perform any other part of resolving the command), and during that period, we all pretend you spent a dial, not a token,
5. While all that is going on, you are still in the "resolving a concentrate fire command" part of the attack, you can resolve Director Krennic's effect - as we are doing so as part of resolving the CF command, Piett's effect still applies, so as far as Krennic can tell you spent a dial - for all the rerolls you want.

The token didn't get turned into a dial (so you can't then spend the dial to get rid of all raid tokens or whatever - there may be other reasons for that).

But again, I don't think it matters. It's late, this is a silly, technical point to argue on, you are wonderful and I really appreciate all you do for the Armada community.

I think I agree that this is the explanation that fits the RRG definitions of everything the best.

My only remaining question is that point #4 - whether the effect does persist through the full resolution of that command and everything triggering. I think the intent is that it does, so this is all exactly correct and Krennic does re-roll everything, but...

...man, it'd be nice to get that spelled out in the FAQ, because I imagine some day that is going to be a problem. And Commander Vanto is a prime candidate for being the source of it, if not already, by virtue of his trigger being 'AFTER YOU RESOLVE...' Like...how far into the potential set of triggering upgrades that goes before you are done 'fully resolving' that first command might be really important some day...(or maybe today).

8 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Vanto triggers only on completion of resolving a command, which by the RRG means ET is holding the nav open in order to resolve the second maneuver on exhaust.

Not quite. ET does not hold open the nav command, because the ET trigger happens instantaneously. Think by analogy to defense tokens. You spend the brace during the Spend Defense Tokens step, but it doesn't do anything until you suffer damage, which is ages later. Or even clearer, Fleet Commands; you spend the token at the start of the ship phase, but the effect happens throughout the round.

So the timing is:

1. start your maneuver,
2. get to the "determine course step"
3. resolve a navigate command by spending a dial, token or otherwise,
   1. while doing this, we can trigger Engine Techs
4. close the navigate command.
5. finish the "determine course step",
6. carry on with the rest of the maneuver,
7. Now we are "after executing a maneuver" we have this extra thing we can do because we triggered it earlier - we can exhaust ETs to perform a speed-1 maneuver.

The idea of "holding open" commands isn't explicit in the rules, but is necessary to make the game work (as unsatisfying as that answer may be). Consider Boosted Comms. Boosted Comms is resolved while resolving a squadron command. If the effect was instantaneous, or independent of resolving the squadron command, it wouldn't do anything. For it to do anything it has to persist throughout resolving the squadron command. It has to "open" for the first squadron you activate, and has to close with the last one you activate (otherwise it would never stop and would apply for the rest of the game - which would be awkward if it got Darth Vader'd or similar).

On Vanto, again think about a squadron command; you have to have finished your squadron command, which means activating all the squadrons you will for him to do anything. He happens after the "resolving a command" period has closed. Same with Concentrate Fires; if you spend a token + dial you can do two things, and you can do them consecutively. Once you have done with that you can now do Vanto.

13 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

The idea of "holding open" commands isn't explicit in the rules, but is necessary to make the game work (as unsatisfying as that answer may be). Consider Boosted Comms. Boosted Comms is resolved while resolving a squadron command. If the effect was instantaneous, or independent of resolving the squadron command, it wouldn't do anything. For it to do anything it has to persist throughout resolving the squadron command. It has to "open" for the first squadron you activate, and has to close with the last one you activate (otherwise it would never stop and would apply for the rest of the game - which would be awkward if it got Darth Vader'd or similar).

On Vanto, again think about a squadron command; you have to have finished your squadron command, which means activating all the squadrons you will for him to do anything. He happens after the "resolving a command" period has closed. Same with Concentrate Fires; if you spend a token + dial you can do two things, and you can do them consecutively. Once you have done with that you can now do Vanto.

Right, and so far the upgrades in play don't really seem to have a major conflict, here, but that ambiguity you note about when a command is closed (RE: triggering Vanto for example) is simply something I would like to see in the FAQ, somehow. Sorting through the upgrades, commanders, and objectives I'm not finding anything obviously a conflict so I'm really just thinking of future state.

Honestly it just annoys me that it's not defined from a pure process documentation perspective. But, then, I always did appreciate the clarity of the Star Fleet Battles sequence of play documentation for a turn. No ambiguity, there. And with cross-references!

2 hours ago, Karneck said:

Watching this is a train wreck. I've given my very detailed answer that clearly explains the process. Believe it or not, its not my job to explain the game in detail to you.

My understanding is that for all intents and purposes, Piett makes it so that the command was a dial spent. Anything that checks to see if a token was spent won’t see it as such. Krennic can reroll any or all of your dice, once. He cannot also reroll two on top of that, because a dial was spent INSTEAD of a token.

And to whoever was musing about “can I also add a second token, to make it a dial+token command...” No. Piett’s ability sets the command as a “dial only.” There are only three ways to resolve a command. Dial, Token, Dial+Token. Piett gives you door #2.

Leia gives you door #3.