vs

So I roll my attack of, say, 5 red dice. All blanks, so an average roll. But I have a concentrate fire token, and Piett isn't exhausted yet, so...I exhaust him and spend the CF token, which is resolved 'as if it had been a dial of the same type instead' and adds a sixth red dice, which also rolls a blank. Typical!

How many of these 6 dice would Krennic let me re-roll? My reading of the text would be only 2 - as I only actually spent a CF token (even if treated as a dial when resolved). While it was RESOLVED as if a dial was spent (per Piett), Krennic doesn't seem to care about what kind of thing was RESOLVED, but instead what was SPENT. Yes?

So...base CF token reroll not used as Piett used the token as a dial + Krennic giving me 2 rerolls for 2 total. Correct?

I'll just copy paste from a prior answer.

• In regards to how a token is “spent” and what part of that command is resolved.
  The process is complicated, provided is an example:

For this example, we will use a Super Star Destroyer equipped with Admiral Piett , Wulff Yularen , Director Krennic and Ravager . The SSD has a concentrate fire token already.

Later in the activation, the SSD attacks a target. During the attack step, which is when you can choose to resolve a concentrate fire command. You decide you want to use Admiral Piett ability for this attack.

You must "SPEND" only a token in order to use Admiral Piett ability.

The concentrate fire token has been "spent", but it has not yet resolved its command because you haven't done any modifying effect to the attack pool (neither added a die or rerolled a die).

You may exhaust Wulff Yularen , and regain the token, as you "spent" the token..

Exhaust Admiral Piett , you now exchange the "spent" token " If you do, that ship resolves that command as if it had spent a dial of the same type instead . "

This has now changed the token INTO a dial. It is no longer a token, it is now a dial.

Per RRG:

"If a dial, token, die, or other component is spent as part of a cards effects cost, that component does not also produce its normal effect."

Meaning when you spent that token, and then used Admiral Piett ability on it. You are not producing its normal effect, as the card effect has changed it. In this case, from a token, into a dial.

However, you still, have not yet resolved its command because you haven't done any modifying effect to the attack pool (neither added a die or rerolled a die).

You now resolve the concentrate fire command AS a Dial. As only a Dial is being "spent". Thus the Concentrate fire command only resolves its dial effect, and cannot resolve its token effect. Because the token was changed into a dial.

Thus Director Krennic can only use his ability as it relates to the Concentrate Fire Dial, and not also the Token. As no token was spent, a dial was spent. That is why also Ravager cannot add or reroll a die, because no token concentrate fire was resolved, only a dial.

I don't see how you get to 3 by your process. If you added the die (because you treated the token as a dial per Piett and this effect is "instead" of the standard token effect of CF), and assuming you're not at close range, I think the question is whether you get to reroll 6 or 2 dice.

The way we have been playing it is you can reroll all 6 because Piett says it "resolves that command as if it had spent a dial" and we have been reading Krennic to mean, since you have effectively "spent a dial", you get to reroll all the dice. I can see the argument why it is only 2 - you did actually only spend a CF token and, while you are getting the effect of a dial, that doesn't change what you spent; however, that's not the way we took it to mean. Curious what others think. Great question!

Aahz. For Krennic, you if spend the concentrate token. Which gives 1 reroll of any die, and Krennic also gives a reroll of 2 red dice. So 3 dice in total may be rerolled.

3 minutes ago, Karneck said:

Aahz. For Krennic, you if spend the concentrate token. Which gives 1 reroll of any die, and Krennic also gives a reroll of 2 red dice. So 3 dice in total may be rerolled.

No, his question makes sense - if Piett used the token as a dial, it can't also be a token, so it's 2 max. Edited the OP to clarify.

4 minutes ago, Karneck said:

This has now changed the token INTO a dial. It is no longer a token, it is now a dial.

This is the part I'm wondering if we have confirmation on. A literal reading of the cards and rules would suggest this is not the case - a token is still a token when spent, even if treated as something else during resolution of the command. (Resolving a command and 'spending' a token or dial being two different things, usually although not necessarily related to each other, no?)

Er, yeah, @Karneck , I get that, in general, if you spend a CF token, you get a total of 3 dice to reroll with Krennic (1 from CF token plus 2 more from Kennic).

I'm on the specific example @xanderf had above. Are you saying that you get "credit" for having spent the CF token for Krennic when you effectively exchange it for a dial with Piett? So you get all the red dice (6 in the example) plus another 2 (for spending the token)?

9 minutes ago, xanderf said:

No, his question makes sense - if Piett used the token as a dial, it can't also be a token, so it's 2 max. Edited the OP to clarify.

This is the part I'm wondering if we have confirmation on. A literal reading of the cards and rules would suggest this is not the case - a token is still a token when spent, even if treated as something else during resolution of the command. (Resolving a command and 'spending' a token or dial being two different things, usually although not necessarily related to each other, no?)

No... You are getting resolved and spent mixed up. Reread my explanation again, it spells it out very clearly.

Feel free to submit any question you want to FFG. To me the answer is clear.

And yes, when you spend just a CF token, you get that reroll. Plus Krennics 2 red dice rerolls.

4 minutes ago, Karneck said:

And yes, when you spend just a CF token, you get that reroll. Plus Krennics 2 red dice rerolls.

Without Piett turning it into a dial, sure that's true - you'd have 3 rerolls.

But Piett says you can exhaust him to treat the token as a dial INSTEAD, which surely means it can't also provide the token re-roll. I mean, that's what "instead" means, right? Do X thing rather than Y thing you'd normally do - so you don't do the Y thing?

Just now, xanderf said:

Without Piett turning it into a dial, sure that's true - you'd have 3 rerolls.

But Piett says you can exhaust him to treat the token as a dial INSTEAD, which surely means it can't also provide the token re-roll. I mean, that's what "instead" means, right? Do X thing rather than Y thing you'd normally do - so you don't do the Y thing?

Yes. if you spend just a normal CF token. Correct.

Sorry misread what the intent was, but I see it now.

Right, when the CF is spent, and Pietted, it wouldn't provide ANY token effect with krennic. Because NO token was spent. Piett turned it into a dial, and only a DIAL command is being resolved.

Otherwise you are trying to say, you spent just a token, but also a dial, but then its not a dial+token effect.

You spent a token, and instead of resolving the command as token only. You Piett it, you now resolve the command as DIAL only. Because when a command is resolved, it can ONLY be resolved in one of three ways.
A token, a dial, or a dial+token.

Right, so you're saying, in the example above, he gets to reroll all the dice with Krennic (6), because the CF token gets treated as spending a dial, and Krennic then allows him to reroll all the dice. Huzzah - we've been playing it right lol!

1 minute ago, Karneck said:

You spent a token, and instead of resolving the command as token only. You Piett it, you now resolve the command as DIAL only. Because when a command is resolved, it can ONLY be resolved in one of three ways.
A token, a dial, or a dial+token.

Absolutely, right. But what question I had in the OP (and it got confused by my incorrect double-use of the token, now edited out) was whether Piett actually CHANGES the token into a dial, or whether there is nuance between the concept of 'spending' something and 'resolving' something. That is, normally you spend a token to resolve a command as a token, or spend a dial to resolve a command as a dial, or spend a dial and token to resolve a command as a dial and token.... or with Piett spend a token and resolve a command as a dial . (That is, the token is specifically not " changed" , but just resolved differently)

I think I understand your position that there can only be token-as-token, dial-as-dial, or dial+token as dial+token as possible options, so Piett must change the token to a dial to work. With that understanding, Krennic would let you re-roll all dice. However, I think I disagree with that interpretation, as it seems clear by the wording on Piett's card that token-as-dial is a possible state, and the distinction between what is 'spent' and what is 'resolved' is meaningful. So only a token was spent, Krennic can only re-roll 2 dice (even if it was resolved a dial, it was a token spent not a dial spent).

But that sounds like just a disagreement, I think we understand each other clearly.

I'll shoot FFG an email and see what they think. * shrugs * Who knows, maybe they'll actually answer.

You can disagree all you want. You are wrong. Full stop. You are not understanding when something is spent, and when the concentrate fire command is resolved.

So let me ask this.

Are you believing that when you spent the CF token. That it also is resolving that command at the same time? That is where you are getting hung up.

WHEN did you modify the dice pool to actually RESOLVE the CF command? Krennic only works ONCE the CF command IS resolved.

Because if you say you did it when you spent the token, it must mean you rerolled a die. But then you resolved that command as TOKEN only. You could not Piett it.

THUS, when you Piett, you must Piett BEFORE you have modified the dice pool with CF. You spent the token, you change that token INTO a dial, now you modify the attack pool by adding a die. Ta-da you have now resolved the CF command AS A DIAL ONLY.

Thus when you look at Krennic, the CF command was resolved as dial only, because a DIE was added by a dial. There was no token part in that effect, because Piett can only RESOLVE a command as DIAL only.

2 minutes ago, Karneck said:

Are you believing that when you spent the CF token. That it also is resolving that command at the same time?

Exactly the opposite, and that's my entire argument as to why Krennic only allows 2 re-rolls in that case instead of all 6 - because they are not done at the same time.

2 minutes ago, Karneck said:

Krennic only works ONCE the CF command IS resolved

Definitely, yes, but re-read his card. He only WORKS once the command is resolved, yes absolutely, but he doesn't care what was resolved. 'Resolved' isn't anywhere in his text at all - only 'spent' is printed there on the CF resolution. IE., he triggers on resolution yes, but what his card says he checks is then what was SPENT (that's the wording on his card) to get that resolution, not which resolve method was used.

1 minute ago, Karneck said:

THUS, when you Piett, you must Piett BEFORE you have modified the dice pool with CF. You spent the token, you change that token INTO a dial, now you modify the attack pool by adding a die. Ta-da you have now resolved the CF command AS A DIAL ONLY.

Highlighting the only thing we are disagreeing on. If you have a source or reference that suggests this is happening, it would clarify this immensely.

My perspective is that - as the 'spending' step and 'resolving' step are two different things (as you point out above) - I don't believe that the token has to CHANGE into a dial at all. You simply spent the token (what Piett specifically says you are doing - he doesn't say "change the token into a dial and spend it", he says "spend a token and when the ship goes to resolve that command it's treated as if a dial was spent instead"). So when you get to Krennic, he triggers because you ARE resolving a CF command, and in resolving it you are treating it as if a dial was spent (add a die instead of re-rolling one), but when Krennic's card checks to see what was SPENT instead of what was RESOLVED (again, his card talks about spending not resolving) it was a token used not a dial.

Unless, as you suggest, the token was CHANGED into a dial along the way. I don't see any precedent for that, though, and Piett's wording doesn't seem to say that is what happens, but I may be missing something. If you have a source you could point me to that shows that sort of thing happening elsewhere, that'd help a ton in understanding this.

You are absolutely not understanding how command and card effects are resolved at all. (in this instance anyway) Which makes it very difficult to explain this to you. I can't help that.
I see that despite my well written explanation, I need to make a more clear cut video detailing the process.

Quote

"If you do, that ship resolves that command as if it had spent a dial of the same type instead."

So by a strict reading Piett doesn't change what was spent other than within the context of resolving the command. For anything relevant to resolving the CF command, we pretend a dial was spent not a token. Hence Yularen works with Piett - Yularen isn't part of resolving a command, so he just sees a token being spent.

The question becomes "when resolving an effect with a command icon as a header, is that still part of resolving the command?"

Quote

Effects with a command icon as a header, such as "[icon]:" can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

Does that mean the effect is resolved as part of resolving the matching command, or is it resolved separately, merely triggered by resolving the matching command? If it is part of resolving the matching command, Piett has his effect, so as far as this effect is concerned (including Krennic) a dial was spent (because Piett lets us pretend we spent a dial). If it is outside resolving the command, and we are merely resolving an effect triggered by resolving the command, Piett has no effect, so Krennic would see us resolving a token only.

13 minutes ago, Karneck said:

You are absolutely not understanding how command and card effects are resolved at all. (in this instance anyway) Which makes it very difficult to explain this to you. I can't help that.
I see that despite my well written explanation, I need to make a more clear cut video detailing the process.

If you read my post you'd see that I do. It's exactly in alignment with your explanation. If you think I'm not following your post, then please try to re-read my comment with the understanding that I am so you must be missing something in my response.

The ONLY area of disagreement is your statement:

Quote

This has now changed the token INTO a dial. It is no longer a token, it is now a dial.

I don't believe that's true, because it isn't necessary, Piett doesn't say that is what happens, and it is without precedent in the rules and FAQ that I can see.

Piett says that it stays a token, you just RESOLVE it like a dial, it doesn't change into one.

Here's how I look at it. Krennic triggers from resolving the concentrate fire command. Piett says, when resolving that command, you treat it as if you spent a dial instead of a token. So, Krennic sees you have resolved concentrated fire with a dial, which means you get to reroll all dice.

24 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

Does that mean the effect is resolved as part of resolving the matching command, or is it resolved separately, merely triggered by resolving the matching command? If it is part of resolving the matching command, Piett has his effect, so as far as this effect is concerned (including Krennic) a dial was spent (because Piett lets us pretend we spent a dial). If it is outside resolving the command, and we are merely resolving an effect triggered by resolving the command, Piett has no effect, so Krennic would see us resolving a token only.

I would suggest that it doesn't really matter. IE., you spend just a token for a tokens effect. That is, any of these are the valid states as I see it:

• You spend a CF token. [CF resolve], you re-roll a red die (token as token). Krennic triggers as you've resolved a CF command, he checks to see what was spent* - just a token? Then he lets you re-roll 2 more dice for 3 total.
• You spend a CF dial. [CF resolve], you add a red die (dial as dial). Krennic triggers as you've resolved a CF command, he checks to see what was spent* - a dial? Fantastic, you can re-roll all your red dice.
• You spend a CF dial + a CF token. [CF resolve], you add a red die and can re-roll a red die (dial+token as dial+token). Krennic triggers as you've resolved a CF command, he checks to see what was spent* - a dial AND a token? Amazing, you can re-roll all your red dice, and then re-roll 3 of those red dice afterwards if you want.
• You spend a CF token and exhaust Piett to treat it as a CF dial resolution . [CF resolve], you add a red die (token as dial). Krennic triggers as you've resolved a CF command, he checks to see what was spent* - and only a token was spent . You didn't re-roll any dice at all yet (can't do, as the resolution is a CF dial not a CF token), so you'll be able to re-roll 2 total.

* noting in all cases that Krennic's card doesn't say to check what was RESOLVED - he doesn't care. Once any CF is resolved and you are working through his card's text, he just checks what was SPENT.

5 minutes ago, Aahz 1 said:

Here's how I look at it. Krennic triggers from resolving the concentrate fire command. Piett says, when resolving that command, you treat it as if you spent a dial instead of a token. So, Krennic sees you have resolved concentrated fire with a dial, which means you get to reroll all dice.

Except, as I'm arguing here, Krennic's card doesn't say anything about what was RESOLVED. He doesn't care what was RESOLVED, he cares what was SPENT to get that effect.

Where the hangup comes is if @Karneck is correct and that Piett is changing the CF token into a CF dial to get that CF dial effect. In that case, Krennic of course let's you re-roll everything. I don't think Piett is, though, I think he just lets you spend a token to get a dial's effect (which is, well, literally the words on his card text), but it's still a token spent not a dial.

Krennic has a trigger - resolve the concentrate fire command. That’s the symbol at the beginning. For that purpose, you treat it as resolved with a dial. Then you read the rest of the effect. My argument is you look to how you resolved the command and read the effects dial/token in light of that. I do see the “spent” point (as I said above), but I think you have to read those in light of his trigger. YMMV

1 minute ago, Aahz 1 said:

My argument is you look to how you resolved the command and read the effects dial/token in light of that. I do see the “spent” point (as I said above), but I think you have to read those in light of his trigger. YMMV

Well that is quite the opposite of what Krennic's text says, though, so why would you have to do that?

Krennic doesn't read:

"[CF resolve header] While attacking at medium-long range, if you resolved a [CF] with a dial, you may also reroll any number of red dice in your attack pool. If you resolved a [CF] with a token, you may also reroll up to 2 red dice in your attack pool."

What his text says is instead:

"[CF resolve header] While attacking at medium-long range, if you spent a [CF] dial, you may also reroll any number of red dice in your attack pool. If you spent a [CF] token, you may also reroll up to 2 red dice in your attack pool."

(Emphasis mine, of course)

My gut instinct would agree with @xanderf for the reason, as previously stated, that the Spend is different from the Resolve of a Command.

What @Grumbleduke said as well:

30 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

So by a strict reading Piett doesn't change what was spent other than within the context of resolving the command.

--BUT-- this lead me to a corollary question (apologies if this pulls a bit too far off topic, but I think it's germane):

If the above is true - can Piett-changed Command EVER resolve a Dial+Token?

The FAQ states the following:

Q: Can a ship resolve the effect of a command by spending multiple matching command dials or command tokens?
A: No. A ship may only resolve a command by spending one command dial, one command token, or one command dial and one matching command token.

Because that language also uses *spend*, it would mean that Piett on, for example, an SSD with Executor Title ( You can be assigned any number of command tokens of any types ) could only ever *spend* one Token, changed by Piett, to execute as a Dial, making Piett notably less beneficial...

Whereas, if the Token is fully transmutated by Piett, in the way described by @Karneck , you could spend, 2 Engineering Tokens, and get 6 Engineering Points, as opposed to only being allowed to spend one Command Token (changed by Piett to a Dial = 4 Pts), of a type, at a time...

Are we all just getting spun up about this because up until these two new cards, the difference between Spend/Resolve was pretty immaterial for most things - and FFG's language choice hasn't kept up with their intent for the rules? Or do we trust that they are really paying attention to the specifics of these wordings?

6 minutes ago, Benmartin said:

--BUT-- this lead me to a corollary question (apologies if this pulls a bit too far off topic, but I think it's germane):

If the above is true - can Piett-changed Command EVER resolve a Dial+Token?

No he can't, but I think that's more to do with his card than anything. After all, it reads:

"When a friendly ship spends only a command token to resolve a command , you may exhaust this card. If you do, that ship resolves that command as if it had spent a dial of the same type instead."

So you can't have a dial involved at all. Of course, why would you need to? If you already have a token and a dial already set, resolving token+dial is the most powerful resolution of any command anyway, and you're doing that without Piett anyway. Dial+dial is not a possible command resolution, after all, as specified in the FAQ on page 6 under 'Commands':

Quote

Q: Can a ship resolve the effect of a command by spending multiple matching command dials or command tokens?

A: No. A ship may only resolve a command by spending one command dial, one command token, or one command dial and one matching command token.

5 minutes ago, xanderf said:

So you can't have a dial involved at all. Of course, why would you need to? If you already have a token and a dial already set, resolving token+dial is the most powerful resolution of any command anyway, and you're doing that without Piett anyway. Dial+dial is not a possible command resolution, after all, as specified in the FAQ on page 6 under 'Commands':

I didn't say there was a dial involved.

SSD with Executor Title. Multiple of the Same Token. Use Piett on One Token.

Can you or can you not use a Second Token to Resolve the Command as Dial+ Token?

Just now, Benmartin said:

I didn't say there was a dial involved.

SSD with Executor Title. Multiple of the Same Token. Use Piett on One Token.

Can you or can you not use a Second Token to Resolve the Command as Dial+ Token?

No, because Piett triggers only when you spend only A ('a', singular) command token. If you spent two command tokens, he can't trigger because you didn't spend only one . He specifies both singular (one), and exclusive (nothing else), use of a token.

Right - that was my reading as well.

But I think it illustrates your point - that Spending a Command (Dial/Token) is different from it's Resolution.

And, if Karneck is right about what Piett does (assuming I'm reading his posts correctly), then Piett *changes* one of those Tokens into a Dial, and then you *could* use two Tokens in this case, because one of them would really be a Dial....