Read the new rules last night. Several questions - thought I'd see if anyone here knows.

Actions to use equipment

The big question mark is whether it takes an action to use tokens that don't specifically say they require one. The example in the rules describes using an action to activate Eva's Iron Cross. Eva's Iron Cross doesn't mention requiring an action. If the bonus CP items take an action, that makes them pretty weak. It also opens a big can 'o worms; if they take an action, why wouldn't the items to gain an initiative bonus, or Zhorka's special, or any of several other equipment tokens.

I think the example should be treated as an error, and equipment should be played as written.

Initiative

In the old rules, the player winning initiative got to decide who went first. In the new rules, the player winning initiative goes first. You don't always want to go first. Going second lets you see where the other side is moving and plan accordingly, lets you take control of an area without risking attacks in the current turn (and then go on overwatch next turn) and lets you see how a turn plays out and what CPs you need to spend so you can feel free to burn your remaining CP on your last character activated.

This means all those items to give Initiative bonuses are pretty questionable. They're likely to hurt you almost as much as they help you.

Oversight? Something drastically different in the new rules that means you always want to go first (I don't think there is...)?

Bouncing Betty

Ramirez' bouncing betty makes an attack "As Above".

Um...ok...where above? Is it the same as his grenade launcher attack?

Kaali

When you attack with Kaali, you get to place a meteops token. But is that the attack, or is it in addition to the attack? As written, it kind of sounds like its in addition, but I don't feel like that is the intent.

Eye of Horus

Presumably the Eye of Horus adds 1 damage when using the Patmos Amulet or Sha-Na-Ra. Right? Or is it supposed to be used on its own to make a mental duel to cause 1 damage?

Thanks for any opinions!

All good questions. I'm in the process of writing up the problems we have with the revised edition and submitting them to FFG for an official answer. In the meantime, I can offer my opinion on the rules you've listed. My answers are in order of certainty, with the first being "I'm pretty darn sure" down to "Hey, I'm making this up as I go":

Kaali

Placing a meteop token is Irishka's attack/action - it's not in addition to her attack/action. You wouldn't get one set of 3 automatic attack successes from firing Kaali and then a second set of 3 automatic attack successes from the exploding meteop token.

When you fire Kaali, place a meteop token on Irishka's path (you choose the circle). If a character is standing in the circle you targeted, the meteop explodes immediately (dealing 3 automatic attack successes). Otherwise, the token remains. Later on, if a character enters the circle containing the meteop token, it explodes (again dealing 3 automatic attack successes). This subsequent explosion and damage roll is not considered part of Irishka's action.

Eye of Horus

The only way Heizinger can initiate a Mental Duel is by choosing the Use Equipment action - in this case activating either the Patmos Amulet or Sha-Na-Ra (or another piece of equipment that specifically states "as an action, engage in a Mental Duel"). Characters can't engage in a Mental Duel as an action by itself (it's not an option under the list of actions on Page 18). Therefore, the Eye of Horus can't be used alone, it only exists to augment another piece of equipment that initiates a Mental Duel.

Initiative

Going over the Initiative rules several times (page 10), it doesn't actually say what Initiative does - only that the player with the higest roll has initiative. I think this is an oversight, and for this reason I believe initiative works just the same as the old version. Players can still choose whether to go first or second.

The part about having to go first is for the Set-Up Roll only, which is different from the Initiative Step. A player who wins the Set-Up Roll must go first because they get to pick their entry point before the other player, thus balancing things out.

Bouncing Betty

I can only assume the Bouncing Betty token works just like Ramirez's Grenade Launcher, especially as detonating the Bouncing Betty takes an action. In other words, you roll 5 damage dice against any character standing on, or adjacent to, the circle containing the token.

I hope that helped!

Actually, I would assume you'd get a 5 die weapon attack and then get to place the Meteop. Well, I wouldn't assume that, but that's kind of implied by the oddness. Kaali is an automatic weapon; automatic weapons roll 5 attack dice.

I do assume it is just supposed to place the Meteop, but its really odd.

Initiative is explained when it talks about setting overwatch and taking actions; the character who lost initiative declares overwatch first, and the character who has initiative activates first.

Which is all fine and good, if they didn't have items that added to initiative.

After re-reading the Kaali's rules, I think you're right. You make a 5 dice attack AND place a meteop token (if it explodes, you get 3 automatic attack successes against your target). The fluff describes an electromagnetic cannon coupled with a meteop launcher.

My question, then, is whether the 3 automatic attack successes from the meteop token are added to the 5 attack dice roll, or are they considered a separate attack for the purposes of Shock rolls? I think they're a separate attack and therefore require 2 Shock rolls, but what do I know?

Incidentally, thanks for the input. Sorry I didn't mention that at first

I don't think Kaali is supposed to give both a regular attack and the meteops...just makes it sounds like it does. Very confusing.

If it does give both, I would think they would be separate effects.

StormKnight said:

No problem. I'm not sure it's worth much, other than helping to muddy the waters even further.

After reading through the Set Overwatch and Activate Characters sections (page 10), it does say that the player with initiative goes first. Hmm... whether this is a screw-up or not, I'll definitely house rule that the player who wins initiative gets to choose whether they go first or second.

To me, forcing a player to go first just takes away another step in the decision-making process, which makes for bland gaming. My gaming group plays a few other games where we've had to use the same house rule.

My list of disputed and unclear revised rule topics so far:

Initiative - does the winner have to go first?

How does Kaali work?

Bouncing Betty - what is "dealing damage as above" referring to?

Does discarding a piece of equipment (e.g. Eva's Iron Cross) cost an action?

Is there anyway to purchase reinforcements in a 2 CP per turn game?

Does the Hand-to-Hand skill confer any attack bonus/do anything in combat?

Anything else?

Here's some guesses on my part.

How does Kaali work?

When you attack with Kaali, you make no Attack Roll. Instead you put a Meteop Token on a Circle.

Does discarding a piece of equipment (e.g. Eva's Iron Cross) cost an action?

Discarding a piece of equipement is part of picking up / pass equipment actions, so yes it does cost an Action. And you can only discard disposable equipment tokens.

Is there anyway to purchase reinforcements in a 2 CP per turn game?

2 CP game modes / scenarios are not tailored for using reinforcements. However you can use the CP found in crates or from medals to get 3 CP in a turn and bringing in reinforment troops.

Does the Hand-to-Hand skill confer any attack bonus/do anything in combat?

The Hand-to-Hand skill has no use right now in combat. It may be used as a requirement for new Hand-to-Hand Ability or Weapon tokens.

Plageman - I think you're confusing "discarding" a piece of equipment with "dropping" a piece of equipment

I think the 'discard' is actually a bit of a red herring. The real question is "does it take an action to activate a piece of equipment that does not specify whether or not it takes an action." possibly followed by "are there exceptions to this general rule"?

And the much more important question, "what the hell is a meteop anyway?"

I put this in the other Discard thread but the response I got from FFG regarding Discarding tokens is that it is not an action but must take place during the Character's Activation. This does not supercede a token that clearly states that it uses an action to discard. The direct quoted example was this:

"ie. Eva activates, moves and attacks. Before her activation is over, she could use her Iron Cross ability to discard the token and gain 2 CP. However, once her activation is over, that ability may not be used until she is activated again."

Plageman said:

Actually, this doesn't work. You must purchase reinforcements before activating any characters on your team. Therefore, it would be impossible to gain the third CP in a 2 CP game mode because A) they don't hold over from turn to turn and B) using a medal or searching a crate is considered an action/part of action.

I also have a question regarding the hermetica!

How to use them? Do you need to place them on a path like in Version one or are they always considered effective, making them obviosly quite strong?

The Hermetica just have a constant effect while they're being carried around. Pretty cool!

Gotta be careful with that one that stops non-Obscura core from moving.

"Quick Eva, attack!"

"I can't! Your infernal book won't let me past!"

I thought Eva and Yula are both Blustrum and Obscura (don't they have both faction symbols on their card?).

I think that to clear up things a little FFG should use terms like "Replace Action", "Replace Attack" and "Free Action". It would definitely make equipement effects easier to read. BTW sorry about the discard and reinforcement confusion, I just speed read the manual before answering and noticed my errors later on

spacemonkeymafia said:

Ah, those little red symbols. You're right, they do. Doh.

Another question comes to mind; could you use the Shocktruppen Mad Minute with a counterattack as long as you then don't move when he activates? I would assume you could.

StormKnight said:

If you counterattack before the shocktruppen activation you can use mad minute as you don't have actually moved this turn.

If you counterattack after the shocktruppen activation then you can only counterattack if you haven't moved. And keep in mind that if your shocktruppen is equiped with the Section Kaos token he can use Mad Minute evenif he moved.

While everybody's at it, maybe someone is able to answer this question, too:

We had our first game with the new rules tonight, Obscura Korps vs. Matriarchy.

In the end, the one thing we wondered about the most was the bonus token "helm of diomedes"; Zor'ka was wearing that darn thing, which, per rules, does the following:

"Before declaring you as the target of an attack action, another character must first initiate and win a Mental duel. Initiating a Mental duel with you this way does not require an action, and losing the duel does not commit that character to using up his action in failing to attack you."

This made declaring an attack action on Zor'ka next to impossible, which led to the question in which cases exactly the helm would work;

for example, are counter attacks and overwatch attacks rulewise the same as attack actions? When performing either of them, you don't have to declare a target, since it's always the one who triggered the attack... and it could seem that attack action is refering to the action "attack" that can be taken during a characters activation, and not to every kind of attack in general.

This ruling would at least make Zor'ka kind-of-vulnerable, but we're still unsure if it's the right handling of the rules...

This will definitely require an official response (probably along the lines of "Zor'ka can't take this piece of equipment"). Counterattacks and Overwatch fire are definitely attacks, but I'm not sure whether they would be considered an action, especially counterattacks.

In the meantime, you could always use the Throw Grenade action against Zor'ka, because that's not an attack action.

Vitus_Prem said:

Zor'ka can not be equipped with the Helm, unless the rules have been changed, Zor'ka does not have to correct affiliation symbol

tannbunker.myfastforum.org/about115.html

I might be missing something from the rule book, but under bonus tokens section

"Each bonus token replaces one item of equipment provided by a character’s chosen pack, and each character may only receive
a single bonus token. Return the replaced equipment token to the box. Many bonus tokens can only be used by certain characters,
or types of characters. The back of each token has the image of the character or faction that can use it."

I assume that this (in bold) still hold truth. I have yet to look at the Mats (only played one game with Union and Reich) so maybe she can be equipped with it.

Helm is also a non-disposable equipment (black boarder and not a yellow and black boarder) so it can not be dropped and picked up.

I have one question about the helm.

Does attacking a character equipped with this object need 2 units?

The description says "another"

So let's say (for example John MacNeal want to attack Von Henzinger (who is equipped with the helm)

Can John make the mental duel? or must there be another character to perform the mental duel?

If it ever came down to a 1 on 1 situation it would be impossible to killed the character equipped with such an item.

And is this only a 1 time thing? or must you initiate a mental duel every time?

The Sundance Kid said:

Yup the sentence is awkward . I guess it sould read like this: "Before declaring you as the target of an attack action, your opponent must first initiate and win a Mental duel."

Oh, and yes this apply if you attack on your turn, during an overwatch or during a counterattack. However this raises more questions as to what happens if you don"t win the Duel.

If on on Overwatch do you lose the Overwatch status ? I'd say no because you the text says losingt he mental duel does not commit you to losing your action.

And what of a counterattack ? My guess is that since you can't attack another character than the one you're reacting to, you lose the spent CP.

How does exactly Medal of Honor work ?

Since you don't act during the "Set Overwacth" I assume that you use it during Mac Neal activation. thus you can Move then set him on Overwatch using this Medal, is that right ?

Plageman said:

That's at least how I would understand it, yes.

Yipe said:

Oh, you're right... so the rule's example doesn't fit the rule XD

Maybe it's just written in a messy way and was originally ment as "you can introduce a reinforcement on your turn instead of activating a character"?