I'm as excited as everyone else about the new products, but super excited about the small tangent that Alex went off on about changes in next few weeks of what sounds to be standard trooper size profiles. This has been a huge thing in games where some people have said shooting a lightsaber over a building makes no sense, or snipers not seeing because behind a barricade that their unit can see fine over. This should help bring more of the hobby aspects of modeling into our mix. Whats everyone elses take on this news?

Double edged sword, depends on how they change it.

There is only 1 certainty. Someone is going to complain about whatever it gets changed to, no matter how clever or balanced it is.

I'm not playing competitively. I already made the very logical changes about LoS and cover...

Love the idea. I don’t know how it’s going to work, but I’m optimistic.

boggles the mind that they had to do this because these new players seem to take everything overly literal.... noone around these parts had any trouble ....maybe something gets lost in translation.

31 minutes ago, magnumhan said:

boggles the mind that they had to do this because these new players seem to take everything overly literal.... noone around these parts had any trouble ....maybe something gets lost in translation.

Totally agree. There's always that person who wants to dig into semantics of the rules and try to exploit some vague loophole. I always assume it's the same people who try to "win" dungeons and dragons. Lol.

1 hour ago, magnumhan said:

boggles the mind that they had to do this because these new players seem to take everything overly literal.... noone around these parts had any trouble ....maybe something gets lost in translation.

Okay, sure, we can all agree a lightsaber shouldn't count, but does a hand? A hand mostly obscured by a gun? A B-1's antenna?

When there's ambiguities like this, the safest thing to do in a competitive environment is default to a relatively literal interpretation of the rules.

Infinity and Warmahordes both have height volumes that work just fine.

This should have been in the game from the start.

37 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

Infinity and Warmahordes both have height volumes that work just fine.

This should have been in the game from the start.

Those games use tape measures, while Legion uses range rulers and movement templates. How are we supposed to measure the height of a particular volume unless they just say now we have to go buy tape measures? I'm wondering what they figured out for that little quandary. Maybe using what were (asummedly) arbitrary markings on the range rulers?

44 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Those games use tape measures, while Legion uses range rulers and movement templates. How are we supposed to measure the height of a particular volume unless they just say now we have to go buy tape measures? I'm wondering what they figured out for that little quandary. Maybe using what were (asummedly) arbitrary markings on the range rulers?

Alternately, they could just supply templates to print out online.

Then third party companies will probably make acrylic versions like these: https://www.customeeple.com/product/bf-infinity-los-silhouette-markers-pack/?v=7516fd43adaa

1 hour ago, lologrelol said:

Infinity and Warmahordes both have height volumes that work just fine.

This should have been in the game from the start.

To be fair, in Warmachine/Hordes, the cylinder is used for literally nothing as all LoS is relative to base size/terrain attributes and does not involve height. I can't even remember if they bothered reprinting the rules in Mk3, but I've never seen a TO or player use it at any event.

I could see them using like half of a speed one movement tool or something. Everybody has one, and they are all the same size.

1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

Those games use tape measures, while Legion uses range rulers and movement templates. How are we supposed to measure the height of a particular volume unless they just say now we have to go buy tape measures? I'm wondering what they figured out for that little quandary. Maybe using what were (asummedly) arbitrary markings on the range rulers?

Are you kidding mate?

A ruler costs like $1.

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Alternately, they could just supply templates to print out online.

Then third party companies will probably make acrylic versions like these: https://www.customeeple.com/product/bf-infinity-los-silhouette-markers-pack/?v=7516fd43adaa

This is what im thinking. We got the skirmish pdf, a silhouette pdf would be easy to produce. 3rd parties would enjoy the market till ffg decides if its worth having official one or prize version

4 minutes ago, Gridloc said:

This is what im thinking. We got the skirmish pdf, a silhouette pdf would be easy to produce. 3rd parties would enjoy the market till ffg decides if its worth having official one or prize version

And then 3rd parties would still be fine, especially if it turns out to be a similar profile to Infinity.

6 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Those games use tape measures, while Legion uses range rulers and movement templates. How are we supposed to measure the height of a particular volume unless they just say now we have to go buy tape measures? I'm wondering what they figured out for that little quandary. Maybe using what were (asummedly) arbitrary markings on the range rulers?

Warmachine doesn’t use a tape to measure volume. It’s on the template they use for spray weapons. Something that could have been added to one of the measuring tools if it had been added from the start.

12 hours ago, magnumhan said:

boggles the mind that they had to do this because these new players seem to take everything overly literal.... noone around these parts had any trouble ....maybe something gets lost in translation.

To be fair, the rules DID define line of sight based on sight to the miniature. And while very much not tabletop gaming, another “war game” counts hits to equipment: paintball.

I agree the lightsaber is ridiculous because we know it won’t hurt anything even if someone did shoot the blade.

Also, I would argue that the whole lie of sight bit has to get addressed now because of the coming ARCs. True LoS is going to be a mess with all the dynamic poses including up in the air. I have no clue what “common sense” would say about line of sight to that unit!

10 hours ago, Squark said:

Okay, sure, we can all agree a lightsaber shouldn't count, but does a hand? A hand mostly obscured by a gun? A B-1's antenna?

When there's ambiguities like this, the safest thing to do in a competitive environment is default to a relatively literal interpretation of the rules.

^ This. We needed a new rule because as written it had to be this way.

It saves lots of disagreement among friends too: with our group of friends (I don’t play competitively), our intent was to hide los during a move action we’d ask the other guy to get down and check LOS for us “trying to hide Luke from those guys over there” and we work together to meet the physical state that was intended.

That sounds like a good way of handling it.

Mostly its a result of terrain having no standards. Most of the notable problems (Luke) are solved by having taller terrain. Given that terrain is one of the few areas the genre hasn't really attempted to standardize, most minis games really require some abstraction on height to make LOS work.

2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Also, I would argue that the whole lie of sight bit has to get addressed now because of the coming ARCs. True LoS is going to be a mess with all the dynamic poses including up in the air. I have no clue what “common sense” would say about line of sight to that unit!

Agreed. I think it is less about problems that currently exist and more about future proofing. It seems lots of players have heard about "that guy," but few of us (myself included) have actually dealt with it. However, when I saw the ARCs, my second thought (right after thinking how these looked like the coolest models ever) was how to mod at least one of the flyers so he wasn't so tall. I play a lot at home and my venue is very casual, but the flying ARC had such an extreme height, that I didn't want to deal with the problems that would result. This rules change gives more flexibility for not just player modders, but the designers as well.

54 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Mostly its a result of terrain having no standards. Most of the notable problems (Luke) are solved by having taller terrain. Given that terrain is one of the few areas the genre hasn't really attempted to standardize, most minis games really require some abstraction on height to make LOS work.

To be honest, complete standardization could also result in uninteresting terrain pieces since they are all build to conform to the standard.

Or do you mean "this kind of thing is X-cover" as opposed to "this is how your terrain has to look?"

1 minute ago, Darth 2Face said:

Agreed. I think it is less about problems that currently exist and more about future proofing. It seems lots of players have heard about "that guy," but few of us (myself included) have actually dealt with it. However, when I saw the ARCs, my second thought (right after thinking how these looked like the coolest models ever) was how to mod at least one of the flyers so he wasn't so tall. I play a lot at home and my venue is very casual, but the flying ARC had such an extreme height, that I didn't want to deal with the problems that would result. This rules change gives more flexibility for not just player modders, but the designers as well.

This is well said. More over: this applies not just conversions to gain benefit cover, but the other way too. It saddens me that conversions (probably my favorite aspect of the hobby) is practically discouraged if the converted pose looks interesting / cool, but provides a disadvantage to the player because it exposes more of the model to LoS.

Just now, schuwa said:

This is well said. More over: this applies not just conversions to gain benefit cover, but the other way too. It saddens me that conversions (probably my favorite aspect of the hobby) is practically discouraged if the converted pose looks interesting / cool, but provides a disadvantage to the player because it exposes more of the model to LoS.

Not to mention the limitation on conversion or basing regarding "significantly altering height."

Maybe light sabres should be magnetised so as you can remove it when hiding to represent it being off. 🤣

4 hours ago, craigden said:

Maybe light sabres should be magnetised so as you can remove it when hiding to represent it being off. 🤣

But it's not just sabers, guns at full stretch like the new padme model... once again where do you stop? Grevious is the most glaring example of this, I made a 4x lightsaber with cape and 2x sabres above his head pose as well as a no cape 2x sabers with both basically pointed at his feet, the differences in the los boxes is night and day as is.