Was planning a fleet to try out with no large base ships and agate. Any feedback helps!

Name: Agate no large ships
Faction: Rebel
Commander: Kyrsta Agate

Assault: Surprise Attack
Defense: Asteroid Tactics
Navigation: Infested Fields

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 104 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 27 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Admonition (8)
= 100 Points

Squadrons:
• Tycho Celchu (16)
• Shara Bey (17)
• Kanan Jarrus (19)
= 52 Points

Total Points: 395

3 hours ago, stev said:

Was planning a fleet to try out with no large base ships and agate. Any feedback helps!

Name: Agate no large ships
Faction: Rebel
Commander: Kyrsta Agate

Assault: Surprise Attack
Defense: Asteroid Tactics
Navigation: Infested Fields

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 104 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 27 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Admonition (8)
= 100 Points

Squadrons:
• Tycho Celchu (16)
• Shara Bey (17)
• Kanan Jarrus (19)
= 52 Points

Total Points: 395

OE on the Garel? Else you might miss on your attack run

Nice list

Admonition is already very survivable; I’m not sure Agate does much for it. Why not put her on the Assault Frigate, drop Local Fire Control, and use her ability to get the Salvo token instead? Then you can use Caitken & Shollan for rerolls and make the Paragon a beast!

Also, I love Salvo, I really do, but I feel like using the Vanguard title to equip Local Fire Control is a LOT of points to spend on spitting back two reds two or three times per game. Vanguard isn’t gonna last through very many attacks with only two real defense tokens and a Salvo token. What is its final token mix? Brace/Redirect/Salvo? Brace/Evade/Salvo? I dunno. That ship just feels over-upgraded.

I like the list a lot, though.

New idea for fleet but instead of Agate bringing back cracken.

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• General Cracken (26)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 130 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Quantum Storm (1)
= 26 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Admonition (8)
= 80 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

Squadrons:
• Kanan Jarrus (19)
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
= 52 Points

Total Points: 400

If Cracken was bad before... and I think he might have been... he’s probably much worse with Romodi in the picture. If Romodi’s ships can gain obstruction from an obstacle or a ship, that more-or-less turns Cracken off. That makes a situational and difficult-to-leverage ability pretty useless.

I rarely like to call an upgrade completely terrible, and especially hate to throw shade at Commander upgrades... but if Cracken was ever gonna be good, it was at sometime before a guy like Romodi showed up. Cracken’s binder filler.

29 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

If Cracken was bad before... and I think he might have been... he’s probably much worse with Romodi in the picture. If Romodi’s ships can gain obstruction from an obstacle or a ship, that more-or-less turns Cracken off. That makes a situational and difficult-to-leverage ability pretty useless.

I rarely like to call an upgrade completely terrible, and especially hate to throw shade at Commander upgrades... but if Cracken was ever gonna be good, it was at sometime before a guy like Romodi showed up. Cracken’s binder filler.

It’s more complicated than that. The small ships Cracken favors often live and die by seeking the obstruction Romodi counters.

Except with Cracken they already have it. So not only are they avoiding obstacle obstruction like everything else fighting Romodi, but they’ll get rewarded for denying it and are some of the best ships in the game for positioning. I don’t love Cracken, but Romodi isn’t so much a bad matchup as a matchup incredibly dependent on navigation.

That said, Cracken isn’t amazing and this doesn’t look like a list where the ships reliably want to be speed 3. Garm or Dodonna would probably work better.

4 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

It’s more complicated than that. The small ships Cracken favors often live and die by seeking the obstruction Romodi counters.

Except with Cracken they already have it. So not only are they avoiding obstacle obstruction like everything else fighting Romodi, but they’ll get rewarded for denying it and are some of the best ships in the game for positioning. I don’t love Cracken, but Romodi isn’t so much a bad matchup as a matchup incredibly dependent on navigation.

That said, Cracken isn’t amazing and this doesn’t look like a list where the ships reliably want to be speed 3. Garm or Dodonna would probably work better.

Good points. But if Romodi’s ships can force obstruction (“oh look at that, my Gozanti just blocked Harrow’s front arc entirely; I guess your speed 3 Assault Frigate WILL be sucking eight dice after all”), Cracken can’t do his thing. And other than smart flying, many Romodi lists can force obstruction through objective and obstacle play, given second player.

I’m not saying Cracken will never work, but I would go so far as to say Romodi is one of the nails in Cracken’s coffin. I also haven’t played a bunch of tournaments, and nobody in my group has ever sailed an even-marginally-successful Cracken list, but given that he favors ships that mostly suck against the SSD, I really feel like this is not his time.

15 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Good points. But if Romodi’s ships can force obstruction (“oh look at that, my Gozanti just blocked Harrow’s front arc entirely; I guess your speed 3 Assault Frigate WILL be sucking eight dice after all”), Cracken can’t do his thing.

This is definitely a realistic scenario. It’s also the same way non-Romodi fleets should fight Cracken, though (to obstruct themselves against his attacks.) Which is why an Assault Frigate or anything else that can’t prevent has always a bad choice for him. Stuff like... well, pretty much just CR90s and MC30s are what I’d endorse, and they aren’t shy about staying out of range of that VSD altogether until they’ve killed the Gozanti (nothing Harrow can do to change that without getting the flotilla out of the way and moving into range) or flanking and using that castle deployment against the VSD.

Which is a pretty high bar for a fleet, and probably a large part of why he’s not a thing.

Yeah. I gotta say, Cracken has always topped my list of “least useful Armada commanders.” Every time I’ve even thought about including him, I’ve remembered that Mon Mothma exists, and she’s way better for exactly the same ships, for only 4 more points.

On 2/17/2020 at 11:54 PM, Cpt ObVus said:

Yeah. I gotta say, Cracken has always topped my list of “least useful Armada commanders.” Every time I’ve even thought about including him, I’ve remembered that Mon Mothma exists, and she’s way better for exactly the same ships, for only 4 more points.

The issue with mothma now is she doesnt pair well with salvo generation due to most likely using evade to make salvo. So with this fleet you think garm or dodanna would be the call?

I was thinking about Agate-no-largebase as well. That's being said, in my opinion Kyrsta has a good place on the AFII, as you can make it a pocket battleship. That's what I made. Name: PLJ128

Faction: Rebel

Commander: Kyrsta Agate

Assault: Most Wanted

Defense: Fleet In Being

Navigation: Navigational Hazards

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)

• Kyrsta Agate (20)

• Walex Blissex (5)

• Local Fire Control (4)

• Flag Bridge (0)

• Electronic Countermeasures (7)

• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)

• Paragon (5)

• Take Evasive Action! (6)

= 135 Points

CR90 Corvette A (44)

• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)

• Liberator (2)

• Entrapment Formation! (5)

= 58 Points

CR90 Corvette A (44)

• Ezra Bridger (3)

• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)

• Jaina's Light (2)

= 56 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)

• Comms Net (2)

= 20 Points

Squadrons:

• 8 x YT-2400 (128)

= 128 Points

Total Points: 397

I think you can leverage that you don't need to build the whole list around something. You can easily make a few independent components, like this list.

3 hours ago, stev said:

The issue with mothma now is she doesnt pair well with salvo generation due to most likely using evade to make salvo. So with this fleet you think garm or dodanna would be the call?

Well, I kinda like the Agate-on-Paragon plan, myself. If you’re worried about losing survivability with the missing Evade, there’s always stuff like Derlin or Expert Shield Techs (though Walex Blissex is such a natural pairing with Agate, it’s hard to leave him out).

If I had to pick another admiral to lead this fleet? Dodonna is fine. I don’t know if he does as much for you here as Agate, though.

Garm is cool, but I tend to like him best when I have a ton of pressure on my command tokens because I’m using Fleet Commands or Officer Wedge. I also really like him with the Starhawk.

I might be weird, but I really love Madine.

What I really don’t like (and this might just be me) is using black-dice ships with no bid. The value of ships like Admonition and Garel’s Honor will increase fantastically if you get first activation. I usually MAKE myself get in at least 11 points of bid if I build a fleet with an MC30 or a Gladiator. Whatever silly upgrades I end up cutting to make that happen is almost never going to be worth the game-long advantage of being able to fire first with my brawler.

In this case, I love Kanan Jarrus, I really do, but I might put him on the chopping block. I have a feeling he’ll die frequently (big, expensive, juicy target, not much protection from other fighters, not very survivable).

Also, something is still rubbing me the wrong way about Vanguard here. The whole point of that title is to give us a way to make the Neb-B a bit more survivable, so that with some Aux Shield Teams, or maybe Expert Shield Techs, you have a small chance of not evaporating as soon as an enemy looks at you cross eyed. Local Fire Control takes a chunk of that survivability (for which you just paid about 7 points), throws it out the window, charges you another 4 points, and gives you back a (very) small offensive boost in the form of a defense token that asks you to get shot at to be of any use!

I think Neb-Bs should be lean, because they are fragile (even Vanguard). And while I love Salvo, I think Local Fire Control asks quite a lot of the ship it’s on, and in the case of the Neb-B, it’s too big an ask.

Revised agate list with does this seem solid on frigate use double brace redirect salvo if my planned token setup. I am kinda unsure about obj though.

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Walex Blissex (5)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Early Warning System (7)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 129 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 27 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Admonition (8)
= 80 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

Squadrons:
• Kanan Jarrus (19)
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
= 52 Points

Total Points: 400

5 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Also, something is still rubbing me the wrong way about Vanguard here. The whole point of that title is to give us a way to make the Neb-B a bit more survivable, so that with some Aux Shield Teams, or maybe Expert Shield Techs, you have a small chance of not evaporating as soon as an enemy looks at you cross eyed. Local Fire Control takes a chunk of that survivability (for which you just paid about 7 points), throws it out the window, charges you another 4 points, and gives you back a (very) small offensive boost in the form of a defense token that asks you to get shot at to be of any use!

I think Neb-Bs should be lean, because they are fragile (even Vanguard). And while I love Salvo, I think Local Fire Control asks quite a lot of the ship it’s on, and in the case of the Neb-B, it’s too big an ask.

I mostly agree with you, with a little exception. I think that Vanguard Salvo might be good with Sato. Maybe a good old OE is better, but it might worth trying it. Anyways I'll give it a try.

7 hours ago, stev said:

Revised agate list with does this seem solid on frigate use double brace redirect salvo if my planned token setup. I am kinda unsure about obj though.

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Walex Blissex (5)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Early Warning System (7)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 129 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 27 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Admonition (8)
= 80 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

Squadrons:
• Kanan Jarrus (19)
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
= 52 Points

Total Points: 400

I like the flagship better. And the commander.

I still think that in this particular list, Local Fire on the Vanguard isn’t really worth it... two reds back at the opponent isn’t terrible with Linked Turbolaser Towers to reroll one, but you’re still sacrificing an important survivability-related defense token, and the ship just isn’t built to last to begin with, so maybe you get 2-3 Salvos before it dies, and that’s if the opponent doesn’t lock out the Salvos with accuracy. I’m not saying it’s never gonna be worth it, but I wouldn’t do it. Though I do like Sasska’s Sato idea.

I’ll reiterate (and do with it what you will), I don’t run MC30s without a bid. Big short-range blasts are how that ship earns its living, and they’re just too easy to avoid if your opponent is first player. Same goes for Hammerhead Torpedo Corvettes. Yes, you’re gonna catch him sometimes, or put him in a position that forces him to activate a different ship first... but why make it hard on yourself? Trim some fat, get a healthy bid, and make that ship a killer by sailing it into position near the end of a round, and opening the next round with a world of hurt. And in my mind, the obvious cut here is Kanan. Yes, he’s awesome. But I like him with lots of other fighter support (which you don’t have anyway). I think he’s just 19 points for your opponent to grab easily if he has more than a token fighter presence. Dropping him and going pretty hard for first player makes the rest of your list much stronger, and also solves the problem you have regarding objectives; who cares what they are if you’re picking your opponent’s anyway? You may not win the bid every time, but a 19 point bid is no joke, and I bet you get it more often than not.

I tried taking your advice on the MC30 and what do you think of dropping that plus kanan for this fleet?

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Walex Blissex (5)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Early Warning System (7)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 129 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 27 Points

CR90 Corvette A (44)
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
• Jaina's Light (2)
= 53 Points

CR90 Corvette B (39)
• Dodonna's Pride (6)
= 45 Points

Squadrons:
• Tycho Celchu (16)
• Shara Bey (17)
= 33 Points

Total Points: 399

Or this one with a very strong anti fighter ship build in.

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Walex Blissex (5)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Early Warning System (7)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 129 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 27 Points

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57)
• General Draven (3)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Heavy Fire Zone (4)
• Redemption (8)
= 75 Points

Squadrons:
• Tycho Celchu (16)
• Shara Bey (17)
• Kanan Jarrus (19)
= 52 Points

Total Points: 395

10 hours ago, stev said:

I tried taking your advice on the MC30 and what do you think of dropping that plus kanan for this fleet?

I think you misunderstood me. I’m saying: The fleet you had above looked pretty good. KEEP the MC30. It’s probably the best Alliance ship in the game, pound-for-pound... but it really really wants to go first. So you need a bid. So you DO want the MC30, but you DON’T want to build your fleet all the way to 400. You want to build to about 380, 385, tops, so that with the lower fleet point total, you get the choice of being first or second player (and you’ll usually pick first with this fleet). The perfect cut would be to take the list you had above with the MC30, and cut ONLY Kanan Jarrus. That puts you at 381, right where you want to be, and all you lose is one squadron (totally worth it in this case).

I know some players don’t like to bid. I personally find it difficult to go with a bid of more than about 15 points. But there are certain lists that demand first player, and to me, those lists are mostly those that use close-range brawlers like Hammerhead Torpedo Corvettes, MC30s, MC75Ords, GSDs, Raider-Is, and ISD-KRs. But you do you! If you’d rather try the MC30 as player two, it’s still totally usable. I think my best advice would be to get a buddy to play two test games with you; one where you drop Kanan, and have first player, and one where you have Kanan and go second. You’ll at least see how it’s dramatically easier to use the close-range dice on the MC30.

18 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I think you misunderstood me. I’m saying: The fleet you had above looked pretty good. KEEP the MC30. It’s probably the best Alliance ship in the game, pound-for-pound... but it really really wants to go first. So you need a bid. So you DO want the MC30, but you DON’T want to build your fleet all the way to 400. You want to build to about 380, 385, tops, so that with the lower fleet point total, you get the choice of being first or second player (and you’ll usually pick first with this fleet). The perfect cut would be to take the list you had above with the MC30, and cut ONLY Kanan Jarrus. That puts you at 381, right where you want to be, and all you lose is one squadron (totally worth it in this case).

I know some players don’t like to bid. I personally find it difficult to go with a bid of more than about 15 points. But there are certain lists that demand first player, and to me, those lists are mostly those that use close-range brawlers like Hammerhead Torpedo Corvettes, MC30s, MC75Ords, GSDs, Raider-Is, and ISD-KRs. But you do you! If you’d rather try the MC30 as player two, it’s still totally usable. I think my best advice would be to get a buddy to play two test games with you; one where you drop Kanan, and have first player, and one where you have Kanan and go second. You’ll at least see how it’s dramatically easier to use the close-range dice on the MC30.

Got you and would it be wise to add lando to the mc30 and go to a 15 point bid?

3 hours ago, stev said:

Got you and would it be wise to add lando to the mc30 and go to a 15 point bid?

That is an option. Kinda depends on what kind of bids you think you’re likely to face. Lando is good, but I personally think going first is more important!