Hey,

So first time posting, as I want to get some opinions on some list ideas. I'm very much a big ship player, but wanted to look at what I can do by maxing out on defender squads. I've come up with the below lists and would like to know peoples thoughts. So I look forward to hearing what people have to say.

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 397/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Fleet In Being
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Weapons Battery Techs ( 5 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 172 total ship cost

Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier (54 points)
- Flight Commander ( 3 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)
= 67 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

7 TIE Defender Squadrons ( 112 points)
1 Maarek Stele ( 21 points)
= 133 total squadron cost

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Fleet In Being
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 170 total ship cost

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Minister Tua ( 2 points)
- Weapons Battery Techs ( 5 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 97 total ship cost

7 TIE Defender Squadrons ( 112 points)
1 Maarek Stele ( 21 points)
= 133 total squadron cost

On 2/10/2020 at 2:43 PM, ScottyDoooo said:

Hey,

So first time posting, as I want to get some opinions on some list ideas. I'm very much a big ship player, but wanted to look at what I can do by maxing out on defender squads. I've come up with the below lists and would like to know peoples thoughts. So I look forward to hearing what people have to say.

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 397/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Fleet In Being
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Weapons Battery Techs ( 5 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 172 total ship cost

Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier (54 points)
- Flight Commander ( 3 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)
= 67 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

7 TIE Defender Squadrons ( 112 points)
1 Maarek Stele ( 21 points)
= 133 total squadron cost

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Fleet In Being
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 170 total ship cost

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Minister Tua ( 2 points)
- Weapons Battery Techs ( 5 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 97 total ship cost

7 TIE Defender Squadrons ( 112 points)
1 Maarek Stele ( 21 points)
= 133 total squadron cost

Of the two, the first seems stronger to me. Off the top of my head, Superior positions seems far stronger than Solar Corona for a squads-heavy list. And I’m not sure Jerjerrod is your best choice for commander; what about Sloane?

If you end up going with the second list, DEFINITELY make room for Harrow & Engine Techs on the VSD-I... or better yet, find a way to make it a VSD-II. VSD-Is (and black dice-heavy ships in general) are pretty bad if their top speed is 2, if you aren’t first player, and if you have a low activation count. In a list where ALL of those things are true, you’re probably never going to fire anything but reds, which *might* still be kind of okay if you’re running a barebones VSD-I with next-to-no upgrades (outside of maybe Boosted Comms or something) that’s really just there to activate squadrons... but with a pretty well outfitted VSD, you’re just wasting points, and you’re probably better off with a loaded Quasar.

So based on the general idea of the list, I would look at some changes to the ships, Commander, and Objectives, and have attached them below:

Assault: Surprise Attack
Defense: Fleet In Being
Navigation: Superior Positions

Imperial II (120)
• Admiral Sloane (24)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• Avenger (5)
= 176 Points

Quasar Fire I (54)
• Flight Controllers (6)
• Boosted Comms (4)
= 64 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Suppressor (4)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Maarek Stele (21)
• 7 x TIE Defender Squadron (112)
= 133 Points

Total Points: 400

There are a few issues that still aren't addressed by the fleet comp: specifically, only 4 activations (and no Pryce to guarantee the last activation of turn 2 or 3), and no intel to ensure that the Defenders can bomb the enemy ships, additionally there is only one priority squadron target - Maarek Steele, he WILL be the first to die in a squadron battle.

But based on the idea of an ISD2 with a supporting carrier and a full squadron complement of Tie Defenders, I made some recommended changes.

I switched to Sloane so that no matter what the Defenders roll, they are damaging the defending ship, and then added the Avenger title to take advantage of the exhausted defense tokens. (The Defenders should first exhaust/remove Brace, then Redirect - because unless they have a DCO on the ship, the Contain won't stop the faceup cards from the XX9s).

Suppressor is there for activation padding, and to exhaust one additional enemy defense token - or force them to waste a shot or 2 at it that would be otherwise aimed at the priority targets of the ISD or Quasar.

Did you consider taking Zertik instead of 1 Defender? He will force enemy fighters to engage him instead of your defenders, and he usually holds up attacks on your bomber force for a turn.

If you swap 1 defender for Zertik, that's 1pt cheaper.

I would swap your XX9s for Quad Battery Turrets. That gives you a blue die attack at long range against ships that are faster than you and also means you can activate Leading Shots at long range.

I’d like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that, point for point, Defenders are one of the worst antiship squadrons in the game for damage, behind the TIE Fighter and Gauntlet, and slightly ahead of the Interceptor. Intel is fine, but there’s a very real argument that killing everything in your way is a better use of points at first. Especially with Advanced Transponder Net being a reasonable thing to see.

I’d recommend upgrading a Defender to Jendon for increased command range, durability and the ability to copy Maarek, and swapping one for Tempest to protect him and bomb better when the time comes (although you could run a Jumpmaster here if you wanted.)

Pryce is amazing and will almost always get a 3 activation fleet farther than Strategic Adviser. Even on the Quasar, she’ll give your opponent 8-9 consecutive squadrons to the face if you’re first.

Lastly, Squall is cheap and great for guaranteeing the first strike, getting free round 1 bombing runs, or chasing fleeing targets.

Good luck!

12 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I’d like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that, point for point, Defenders are one of the worst antiship squadrons in the game for damage, behind the TIE Fighter and Gauntlet, and slightly ahead of the Interceptor.

I am interested in your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter...

Seriously though, you got a spreadsheet linky on this? I feel like it would be pretty interesting.

10 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I am interested in your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter...

Seriously though, you got a spreadsheet linky on this? I feel like it would be pretty interesting.

I wish I did. When I'm done with exams I get to work on the flow chart.

When I'm done with the flow chart I get to entertain the idea of something like this. 😉

6 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I wish I did. When I'm done with exams I get to work on the flow chart.

When I'm done with the flow chart I get to entertain the idea of something like this. 😉

Right on. So in the meantime, two quick questions:

1. What are a couple of the best anti-squadron squads for each side, point-for-point?

2. Do your calculations include Counter for squads like Interceptors?

45 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Right on. So in the meantime, two quick questions:

1. What are a couple of the best anti-squadron squads for each side, point-for-point?

2. Do your calculations include Counter for squads like Interceptors?

1. In terms of generics? Interceptors, though I don't like them. Probably TIE fighters. X-wings and YT-2400s are strong for sure.

2. Kind of. Damage against squadrons is a lot more nebulous than damage against ships, and more based in interactions between different cards. For instance, A-wings are nothing to write home about in a vacuum, but put them in a flak zone with Toryn for the attack and counter and they can do work. All the squadrons I cited aren't just good due to base stats, but the number of buffs they can work well with (Howlrunner, RHD, Dengar, Flight Controllers, Jan, Biggs, etc.)

The real best AA squadron is almost certainly an ace (1v1 maybe Ciena or even Vader, but he gets nuked down,) but the point for point value of defense tokens is also situational and hard to quantify.

These are the tough questions where I'd need to see a fleet and couldn't math out a value.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I’d recommend upgrading a Defender to Jendon for increased command range, durability and the ability to copy Maarek, and swapping one for Tempest to protect him and bomb better when the time comes (although you could run a Jumpmaster here if you wanted.)

Agreed - if you are going Maarek, you NEED Jendon to get that value from him as it doubles his utility which makes much of this kind of list work.

That said, as has been noted a few times elsewhere, Jendon on its own isn't worth much - and a generic Defender is rather so-so (well, 'poor') meaning doubling it isn't as useful. You really want to have at least one other 'heavy hitter' in your squad to pair with Jendon once the enemy focus-fires him down.

FWIW, I like Vader, as he's Escort so also protects Jendon/Stele - but of course Morna Kee is a popular choice, as well (the famed MMJ combo).

... and this is why you almost never see massed generic TIE Defenders. You start going, “OK! I’m gonna roll with 7 of these, and Maarek! Well, only 5 more points gets me Vader for one of them, great! And I’ll shave a point and trade another for Zertik, he’s a tank! And I gotta get Jendon in this thing, so I’ll drop another for him. But I gotta find some points now, so I should drop another for Valen...”

And pretty soon you have seven aces and a generic TIE/D.

4 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

... and this is why you almost never see massed generic TIE Defenders. You start going, “OK! I’m gonna roll with 7 of these, and Maarek! Well, only 5 more points gets me Vader for one of them, great! And I’ll shave a point and trade another for Zertik, he’s a tank! And I gotta get Jendon in this thing, so I’ll drop another for him. But I gotta find some points now, so I should drop another for Valen...”

And pretty soon you have seven aces and a generic TIE/D.

These are very true words.

Although I have to say, seeing this has me thinking it's better against the Kallus/H9/QLT bogeyman...

Name: The Best Defense
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Admiral Sloane

Assault: Surprise Attack
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Superior Positions

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Admiral Sloane (24)
• Governor Pryce (7)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• Expanded Launchers (13)
• Avenger (5)
= 175 Points

Quasar Fire I (54)
• Hondo Ohnaka (2)
• Flight Controllers (6)
• Boosted Comms (4)
• Expanded Hangar Bay (5)
• Squall (3)
= 74 Points

Squadrons:
• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Valen Rudor (13)
• 5 x TIE Defender Squadron (80)
= 134 Points

Total Points: 383

Launcher Kuat over a different build because Ravager is dumb and bad, but there's a case to be made for the bid instead.

2 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

... and this is why you almost never see massed generic TIE Defenders. You start going, “OK! I’m gonna roll with 7 of these, and Maarek! Well, only 5 more points gets me Vader for one of them, great! And I’ll shave a point and trade another for Zertik, he’s a tank! And I gotta get Jendon in this thing, so I’ll drop another for him. But I gotta find some points now, so I should drop another for Valen...”

And pretty soon you have seven aces and a generic TIE/D.

Ehhh...Morna/Maarek/Jendon + 4x generic TIE/D isn't awful. Just keep in mind your Jendon group is like 100% of your fighter wing's anti-ship firepower, and 4x generic TIE/D aren't going to ACC enough to be worth bringing Sloane along so I'd look at another commander. (I mean, frack, I ran an 11x TIE Fighter list and the only thing Sloane did all game was allow a crit re-roll twice)

You're definitely fighting with the issue that the generic TIE/D is significantly overpriced. Adding Flight Controllers (assumed) and maybe now that Woldar is out there, they might have a chance? I dunno...

2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I am interested in your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter...

Seriously though, you got a spreadsheet linky on this? I feel like it would be pretty interesting.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IWIY8VrSwDxQZrb1l5gHIs2ic6Yqk2fTYdfB-ZAENJU/edit?usp=sharing

I threw this together to see how the squadrons compare. I don't know what value it really has since there's so many factors other than just dice and points. But for what it's worth TIE Bombers are your best generic squadron for anti-ship, TIE Fighters are your best for anti-squad (not counting swarm, counter, etc. or other effects). For aces you have Maarek and Valen Rudor. Defenders are indeed pretty bad at shooting ships.

Here is a link I did for analyzing squadrons back in December 2016. It does include Tie Defenders but does not squadrons from RitR.

https://modise95.blogspot.com/b/post-preview?token=APq4FmAtVYWHTQg1lo_U1zCFfDZGeoulTMnF0ZkUqc9br6dQoBZ7iE-Mpim45VDpzE2WKSv7EuE7VI5BBBV6uDrmbYh9j6a-JtBbt4Nhg2rUghjtWXHMDcUQ0eFKSa9DDOjK5eGPMJtt&postId=4709589942892705520&type=POST

Some of the calculations are off a little bit since it does start getting complicated when you start calculating swarm, counter, Howlrunner, Vader, and other squadron abilities.

24 minutes ago, modise said:

Here is a link I did for analyzing squadrons back in December 2016. It does include Tie Defenders but does not squadrons from RitR.

https://modise95.blogspot.com/b/post-preview?token=APq4FmAtVYWHTQg1lo_U1zCFfDZGeoulTMnF0ZkUqc9br6dQoBZ7iE-Mpim45VDpzE2WKSv7EuE7VI5BBBV6uDrmbYh9j6a-JtBbt4Nhg2rUghjtWXHMDcUQ0eFKSa9DDOjK5eGPMJtt&postId=4709589942892705520&type=POST

Some of the calculations are off a little bit since it does start getting complicated when you start calculating swarm, counter, Howlrunner, Vader, and other squadron abilities.

'Not counting the squadron abilities' is a pretty big caveat. I mean, Stele ALWAYS does 2 damage with critical effect to ships unless he rolls 2 accs on anti-ship attack, due to his pilot ability. That's 1/16 odds of him NOT doing 2 damage with critical effect (and even then, he still does 1 damage - it isn't even possible for him to completely blank out). He's pretty good because of that. Ditto a lot of the other squads (Morna, etc) - their pilot ability increases the damage they do considerably.

But while you hit a number of topics in that post, and all useful factors, I'd caution that you are missing a very big one looking at only the "alpha strike" (IE., first-time damage output/activations/range/etc) - specifically survivability. Something like a (even generic) TIE Defender is all but guaranteed to survive two attacks, so it's effectively doubling it's anti-whatever value since it can make it's own attack twice across turns (or at the very least require additional enemy effort to kill, leaving another squadron unmolested - same net effect of increasing the number of squadrons you have to make attacks on that subsequent turn). On the other hand, a TIE Fighter, in all but the rarest cases, is going to die to the first thing that shoots at it. Not infrequently, before it can even activate. How squadrons can weather damage is an important consideration in their value!

Agree with all you said.

9 hours ago, modise said:

Here is a link I did for analyzing squadrons back in December 2016. It does include Tie Defenders but does not squadrons from RitR.

https://modise95.blogspot.com/b/post-preview?token=APq4FmAtVYWHTQg1lo_U1zCFfDZGeoulTMnF0ZkUqc9br6dQoBZ7iE-Mpim45VDpzE2WKSv7EuE7VI5BBBV6uDrmbYh9j6a-JtBbt4Nhg2rUghjtWXHMDcUQ0eFKSa9DDOjK5eGPMJtt&postId=4709589942892705520&type=POST

Some of the calculations are off a little bit since it does start getting complicated when you start calculating swarm, counter, Howlrunner, Vader, and other squadron abilities.

Thanks! Unfortunately the link said something about an invalid security key. Couldn’t access.

sorry about that. Try this.

http://modise95.blogspot.com/2016/12/star-wars-armada-squadron-threat.html

I'm a big fan of the TIE Defender and have run Maarek Stele + 7 TIE Defenders lists in the past, to varying degrees of success.

The TIE Defender was one of my favourite Legends starfighters and I was pleased when it was canonized in SW Rebels, particularly its depiction as a "space dominance fighter" that could've crushed the Rebel Alliance if it had gone into full-scale production.

The TIE Defender is not so dominant in Armada -- nor should it be -- but IMO the generic TIE Defender is somewhat disappointing. Its stats make it superior to X-Wing in most respects... except it lacks Escort or another useful keyword. Of course, the Defender has Bomber, which adds to its versatility, but 16 points is slightly too high compared to the E-Wing at 15 points, which has Bomber and a second keyword: Snipe 3.

In canon and Legends, the TIE Defender had a twin Ion Cannons in addition to its 4 Laser Cannons. An ion cannon weapon should grant a special ability comparable to Dutch Vander's ability to toggle a squadron's activation slider to the activated side with any hit -- but I realize that would be too powerful for a generic squadron. It could be toned down so that only Blue Crits trigger the activation slider, but those crits still won't inflict any damage to the defending squadron. Perhaps the keyword for this ability would be "Ion Cannon" or "Disable".

That's how I would've designed the TIE Defender for Armada. But I know it's too late to do anything about it now.

I like the “disable” idea. They probably should have done something like that. But agreed that it’s a missed opportunity at this point. They kinda just rolled Ion Cannons into a squadron’s anti-squad and anti-ship dice.

And maybe that’s better; I feel like it would have been yet another thing to slow down fighter combat. I like that a couple of squadrons can still do that sort of thing, like Hondo and Dutch, but if every generic Y-Wing and TIE/D could do it, it’d likely be pretty complicated.

Steel & Jendon almost always go together. Not only is Jendon great for relay but also the second attack. I would modify your list for that combo.

1 hour ago, Draconis80 said:

Steel & Jendon almost always go together. Not only is Jendon great for relay but also the second attack. I would modify your list for that combo.

I believe the OP is going for a pure Defender build, which includes Maarek Stele and 7 TIE Defenders for 133 points.

A TIE Defender costs 16 points whereas Colonel Jendon costs 20. That means that 2 Defenders would have to be dropped to accommodate Jendon. Losing 2 Defenders to grant Stele a second attack on an enemy ship doesn't seem worth it IMO. With a different build, pairing Jendon with Stele is absolutely META. But in other squadron builds, there is usually at least one other hero squadron that is worth activating with Jendon if Maarek Stele dies. Boba Fett, Morna Kee, and Mauler Mithel (with Dengar) are great backups for Maarek Stele to double-tap with Jendon.

2 hours ago, Reavern said:

A TIE Defender costs 16 points whereas Colonel Jendon costs 20. That means that 2 Defenders would have to be dropped to accommodate Jendon. Losing 2 Defenders to grant Stele a second attack on an enemy ship doesn't seem worth it IMO

There are a great deal of good options to fill that 13 point space, and the anti-ship and reach are better. Tempest Squadron boosts the wing’s bombing power while offering a degree of protection to Maarek, Saber allows for more surgical, counter-proof precision and can double-tap with Jendon, a Jumpmaster can finish 1 and 2-hull targets while affording the flexibility of Intel, even Valen just flat out makes the wing do more damage.

Even if Maarek dies and a swarm option is chosen, the wing only does 0.25 damage less to ships and is better equipped to dogfight. You’d need a pretty good reason not to incorporate Maarek/Jendon (or theme, theme’s fine too.)

2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

There are a great deal of good options to fill that 13 point space, and the anti-ship and reach are better. Tempest Squadron boosts the wing’s bombing power while offering a degree of protection to Maarek, Saber allows for more surgical, counter-proof precision and can double-tap with Jendon, a Jumpmaster can finish 1 and 2-hull targets while affording the flexibility of Intel, even Valen just flat out makes the wing do more damage.

Even if Maarek dies and a swarm option is chosen, the wing only does 0.25 damage less to ships and is better equipped to dogfight. You’d need a pretty good reason not to incorporate Maarek/Jendon (or theme, theme’s fine too.)

Like I said, this is why you don’t see massed TIE/Ds... because it’s certainly more powerful to drop two of them, and add Saber & Jendon.

Then you want Dengar and some other putz. And pretty soon, it’s Maarek, six other aces, and one TIE/D.