12 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

For those other than @Sasajak that want advice on how to make your first time playing Aces High work:

• Reading the rules ahead of time (at least one person) can help ensure you aren't dickering about it while playing. I think there is a thread in the Epic sub forum that has people asking about the rules. It just takes one person to be familiar with it.
• For your first game, try playing at the lowest points level. Everyone always wants to go with the high point aces, but for your very first time, try it with the cheap ships for less complication. You can go through the game quicker and learn the ropes of it faster.
• If you are worried about it taking time to pick out ships to use, you can always use Quick Build points.
• If you want people to be even more prepared, tell them in advance so that they might be able to select their various upgrade cards ahead of time. If they did this, you could avoid QB points.

I lied. One more thing I want to say/add:

I have personally found Aces High to really shine at 75 points. No, you can’t take Anakin with 7B, R2, and Supernatural Reflexes. However, you can take most other Aces with an upgrade or two or a lower initiative pilot loaded to the gills.

30 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

we played three games with different ships and getting together cards for one ship took longer than playing

That would definitely slow you down. But I find it hard to believe it take 30 to 50ish minutes to setup one ship.

32 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

the coarse rules didn’t help

They definitely strike me as a first pass draft. That seems to stem from them not actually considering people would embrace it as much as it has been and need as much polish and granularity as the main format. Not addressing self-damaging is the biggest oversight, but most folks have homebrewed answers.

Also, gaining points vs gaining bounty points was confusing for my first game, but was much better after that.

In any case, I still love it.

My favorite aces high so far has been 50pts, no force users, and if you can get 5+ players on the mat at once it's even better.

Tbh, I find 4 player Aces High a bit boring.

5+ is a blast though. If you don't bring aces.

1 hour ago, Dr Moneypants said:

My favorite aces high so far has been 50pts, no force users, and if you can get 5+ players on the mat at once it's even better.

11 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Tbh, I find 4 player Aces High a bit boring.

5+ is a blast though. If you don't bring aces.

We've found in our local group that 5-6 seems to be the best. Any less and one person tends to become the beat-down. Any more and elbow space start to become a problem.

We had 4 player at snub fighter level (75 points). So from what’s being said it’s a sub-optimal set up. Our group max is 6 so we’d rarely, if ever, get the right numbers you have all found optimal. We’re fine by it there’s plenty of stuff we enjoy in X-Wing so we don’t need to touch stuff we don’t.

@heychadwick we knew dem rulz we’re first edition missions and HotAC vets, we had played other Epic scenarios without hiccup, and I watched the FFG stream when they played Aces High! The whole thing felt off so we went through them again and we hadn’t played it wrong. Also you make the mistakes so we don’t have to. 😀

3 hours ago, svelok said:

This is literally the first time I have ever heard of anyone not enjoying aces high

Same here. At system open last weekend there was so much cheering from the aces high tables that you couldn't help but smile. New and veteran players alike. Incredible game addition.

39 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Same here. At system open last weekend there was so much cheering from the aces high tables that you couldn't help but smile. New and veteran players alike. Incredible game addition.

The night I played we had the sweet spot of 6 players and 75 points. It was a lot of fun for me as well. Also, the great thing about this at a convention is that it can be a rotating door of players. I does not matter one bit if someone plays and dips out, or more want to join. There's no sitting around waiting for a partner.

4 hours ago, Sasajak said:

getting together cards for one ship took longer than playing

Nothing against @Sasajak and gang (because I see this a lot), showing up X-Wing night without a ship/list ready is kinda like showing up to a night of RPG and needing to roll up a character.

6 hours ago, svelok said:

This is literally the first time I have ever heard of anyone not enjoying aces high

I don't particularly enjoy aces high myself, as I prefer having several ships on the board that can work together. It's not bad for a bit of fun every now and then, though.

@Cgriffith have you tried talking with local players about how you feel, or posting in your local x-wing group to organise a game of extended next game night? I'm sure someone would oblige an occasional extended game even if they are hyper competitive. I really enjoy competitive hyperspace play but I don't mind playing extended as well - and sometimes I'll just fly my hyperspace list against an extended list anyway.

As for your favourite pilots, Darth Vader and 6 Academy Pilots made top 4 at my local hyperspace trial on the weekend, so he's still alright. Looking at your preference for vader/anakin, I suspect you really enjoy the double-repositioning that they offer, so I'd also consider Poe Dameron, Vonreig, and Obi-Wan.

If that doesn't sound acceptable because the name on the pilot card doesn't say "Anakin", then why not make an alt-art card with Anakin flying that ship? He's flown just about everything in the galaxy (including some kind of giant mosquito).

On 2/11/2020 at 3:03 AM, FTS Gecko said:

Anecdote: Young player at my local club started around the time 2nd Edition began, picked up a core set and a couple of copies of Guardians of the Republic to give them a solid starting point for the list. Focused on practicing with what they had, and haven't really been able to expand their force since. Now they find themselves incredibly limited in what they can do with what they own on game night due to Hyperspace constraints. Newcomer friendly, no?

Yes, it's much more newcomer friendly than expecting them to buy a conversion kit to be competitive. They only need to purchase 2 small ships (N-1 and Y-Wing) to be building powerful competitive lists again. It's been a year since the guardians pack was released, so that's not an unreasonable expectation for competitive play. If they really can't afford it, is there no-one at the club willing to lend them ships?

As an aside: did they really buy two copies of guardians before buying an individual aethersprite (or an ARC)? That seems like a poor approach, because now they will be missing a bunch of aethersprite pilots and some upgrades. Back when republic first dropped, one aethersprite + 1 guardians was the cheapest way to get a top-tier competitive list (anakin/obi/torrent/torrent) and is certainly what I'd have recommended to any new player wanting to go republic. Honestly, even in extended format, two copies of the guardians pack is incredibly limiting in terms of options.

2 hours ago, gadwag said:

As an aside: did they really buy two copies of guardians before buying an individual aethersprite (or an ARC)? That seems like a poor approach, because now they will be missing a bunch of aethersprite pilots and some upgrades. Back when republic first dropped, one aethersprite + 1 guardians was the cheapest way to get a top-tier competitive list (anakin/obi/torrent/torrent) and is certainly what I'd have recommended to any new player wanting to go republic. Honestly, even in extended format, two copies of the guardians pack is incredibly limiting in terms of options.

*chuckles in 5 Guardians of the Republic boxes*

I’m in danger!

Seriously, though, yeah, one GotR, one Aethersprite, one ARC was my initial purchase. Then things...escalated somewhat.

That’s probably a big reason why I’m also a champion for epic, because 10 Torrents, 7 Aethersprites, 6 Y-Wings, 4 N-1’s and 6 ARC’s are kinda pointless otherwise.

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Nothing against @Sasajak and gang (because I see this a lot), showing up X-Wing night without a ship/list ready is kinda like showing up to a night of RPG and needing to roll up a character.

Well, I feel I have to defend myself here because this is a valid point, but we totally underestimated how quickly the first game was over and only prepared one ship. As it was so quick we thought how would it play with other ships just to see if we’d hit on an unlucky combo... then came the “have we read the rules wrong” bit (we hadn’t) and let’s give it another go quick builds. I feel we gave this scenario a fair chance. You can’t like them all and we've thoroughly enjoyed the other scenarios we’ve played.

24 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

Well, I feel I have to defend myself here because this is a valid point, but we totally underestimated how quickly the first game was over and only prepared one ship. As it was so quick we thought how would it play with other ships just to see if we’d hit on an unlucky combo... then came the “have we read the rules wrong” bit (we hadn’t) and let’s give it another go quick builds. I feel we gave this scenario a fair chance. You can’t like them all and we've thoroughly enjoyed the other scenarios we’ve played.

Every group I've played with has added lots of house rules to aces high to close up loopholes (such as using self-damage to avoid giving up first blood points)

13 hours ago, svelok said:

This is literally the first time I have ever heard of anyone not enjoying aces high

I can take it or leave it. If you go into Aces High expecting it to be a tight, competetive game you're going to be disappointed and I think that's where people who reject it go wrong. It's a fun little way of passing the time and relies on you not taking it seriously. My group play it if we've not got time for another full game at the end of the evening but I personally wouldn't go out of my way to play it.

11 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Nothing against @Sasajak and gang (because I see this a lot), showing up X-Wing night without a ship/list ready is kinda like showing up to a night of RPG and needing to roll up a character.

But then you can pressure the player to roll a Cleric 😉

On 2/11/2020 at 3:54 AM, Okapi said:

You're married to a couple of pilots and not interested in the format because they aren't legal? That makes you the stale one, mate. Try some stuff you've never put on the table! Think of this as an opportunity to do something you usually wouldn't.

so OP needs to change their reasons for enjoying the game (piloting their favorite characters) and/or buy new expansions to do so? thats not as insightful as you want it to be.

Many of us enjoy a lot of pilots and playstyles and Hyperspace is still fairly limiting. I for example have 15 ships I like to fly, spread across 3 factions. Hyperspace currently allows 6 of them, 2 rebel, 2 imp, 2 scum. that sucks. For people who are more focused in what they like its feast or famine, either your boys are legal or not. that can be a turnoff

2 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

But then you can pressure the player to roll a Cleric 😉

Yes, make the NPCs at the shop play the supporting cast!

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

so OP needs to change their reasons for enjoying the game (piloting their favorite characters) and/or buy new expansions to do so? thats not as insightful as you want it to be.

Many of us enjoy a lot of pilots and playstyles and Hyperspace is still fairly limiting. I for example have 15 ships I like to fly, spread across 3 factions. Hyperspace currently allows 6 of them, 2 rebel, 2 imp, 2 scum. that sucks. For people who are more focused in what they like its feast or famine, either your boys are legal or not. that can be a turnoff

Yes? Limited format is limited, that is kind of the point. Like Standard or Block in MTG, the idea is to a) shake up the meta by forcing players to pick something other than ageing staples, and b) making sure new players can participate equally, not requiring them to look for legacy items. It's almost a given that such a format won't contain all of your favourites (in this case Rey and Aethersprite Anakin), or you might not be able to kit them out exactly as you like (Vader).

I personally prefer to play Empire, and none of my favourite ships are in the format (v1, Lamdba, Phantom, Defender), which is a little sad. Then again, the limited pool of ships and pilot not only force me to try out new things, but also my opponents, which means a break from facing the same lists over and over again. Again, that's the opposite of stale.

Of course, if hyperspace were to replace extended, rather than supplementing it, I'd agree, that's not ideal, but I think I'd be able to adapt. I'd rather play one format exclusively for a little while rather than take a break or quit altogether, but that's just me. For now I'll pack lists for both formats and play whatever people feel like.

8 hours ago, Sasajak said:

Well, I feel I have to defend myself here because this is a valid point, but we totally underestimated how quickly the first game was over and only prepared one ship. As it was so quick we thought how would it play with other ships just to see if we’d hit on an unlucky combo... then came the “have we read the rules wrong” bit (we hadn’t) and let’s give it another go quick builds. I feel we gave this scenario a fair chance. You can’t like them all and we've thoroughly enjoyed the other scenarios we’ve played.

I didn't want to attack you or seem like I was attacking you. Not everyone loves everything. I wonder if it would've been different to use the lower points, though. I tend to like to try things without all the bells and whistles. It always seems...purer.

7 hours ago, gadwag said:

Every group I've played with has added lots of house rules to aces high to close up loopholes (such as using self-damage to avoid giving up first blood points)

Awww.....I tried using DBS-404 for the first time during our Aces High game. I wasn't really up on his mechanics, but wanted to try something that would kill himself in a furball type game as it sounded stupid. It was the surprise mechanic that had me win a round! We figured if you had to hurt yourself, it was worth it to prevent someone from scoring those points.

2 hours ago, Okapi said:

Yes? Limited format is limited, that is kind of the point. Like Standard or Block in MTG, the idea is to a) shake up the meta by forcing players to pick something other than ageing staples, and b) making sure new players can participate equally, not requiring them to look for legacy items. It's almost a given that such a format won't contain all of your favourites (in this case Rey and Aethersprite Anakin), or you might not be able to kit them out exactly as you like (Vader).

I personally prefer to play Empire, and none of my favourite ships are in the format (v1, Lamdba, Phantom, Defender), which is a little sad. Then again, the limited pool of ships and pilot not only force me to try out new things, but also my opponents, which means a break from facing the same lists over and over again. Again, that's the opposite of stale.

Of course, if hyperspace were to replace extended, rather than supplementing it, I'd agree, that's not ideal, but I think I'd be able to adapt. I'd rather play one format exclusively for a little while rather than take a break or quit altogether, but that's just me. For now I'll pack lists for both formats and play whatever people feel like.

So first off, i appreciate your thought process there, but i disagree. I think Hyperspace is gauranteed to replace extended as the tourney format. thats its purpose and why it exists. FFG anticipated backlash so theyre phasing it in. MTG did the same in the 90s. because many players aspire to play tournaments they'll push their playgroups to play hyperspace for practice, thereby normalizing hyperspace as the standard format until extended becomes the "legacy" format. that could be fine, but it has a lot of drawbacks. its designed to encourage purchases as much as rotate the meta, and any veteran MTG player knows where that goes. you should not have to be rich to play.

what makes way more sense to me is to ban specific upgrades and for a rotation of ships to be priced "badly" each cycle for extended. so for example if you Really Really need to fly Vader you can, but youre doing it at a disadvantage for 6 months. more competive players will still buy the new hotness (and probably win), but the One ship folks can still use their chassis of choice.

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

I think Hyperspace is gauranteed to replace extended as the tourney format. thats its purpose and why it exists.

Over my dead body.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Hyperspace, and I love it especially as A competitive format but killing extended would basically invalidate 90% of available stock and greatly reduce the value of our collections. Very bad move IMO and goes back on a lot of 2.0 promises as well.

It is, was, and always should be one of two equally-supported formats. If you kill Extended then you kill my interest in Organized Play (and potentially my FLGS), plain and simple, and from this thread (of people that are already FFG devotees), it's pretty clear that I'm not the only one.

FFG isn't stupid. I very very highly doubt they'll ever kill Extended as a competitive format.

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Over my dead body.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Hyperspace, and I love it especially as A competitive format but killing extended would basically invalidate 90% of available stock and greatly reduce the value of our collections. Very bad move IMO and goes back on a lot of 2.0 promises as well.

It is, was, and always should be one of two equally-supported formats. If you kill Extended then you kill my interest in Organized Play (and potentially my FLGS), plain and simple, and from this thread (of people that are already FFG devotees), it's pretty clear that I'm not the only one.

FFG isn't stupid. I very very highly doubt they'll ever kill Extended as a competitive format.

I 100% agree. Im already sore about 2.0s cash grab roll-out and would boycott future FFG products if(likely when) hyperspace goes on to be the "real" game. but FFG is a ruthless corporation. as a traded cororate entity they are literally mandated by law to maximize their shareholders profits. they will rotate our collections out of playability to maximize sales unless the customer base firmly rejects that model. I dont think they base all their consumer data on the boards here but they do seem to notice when a topic gets traction so its worth a small bit to state opposition. over time it can be seen by someone in corporate and influence a choice

2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

I 100% agree. Im already sore about 2.0s cash grab roll-out and would boycott future FFG products if(likely when) hyperspace goes on to be the "real" game. but FFG is a ruthless corporation. as a traded cororate entity they are literally mandated by law to maximize their shareholders profits. they will rotate our collections out of playability to maximize sales unless the customer base firmly rejects that model. I dont think they base all their consumer data on the boards here but they do seem to notice when a topic gets traction so its worth a small bit to state opposition. over time it can be seen by someone in corporate and influence a choice

How many new ships do you typically buy each wave?

7 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Over my dead body.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Hyperspace, and I love it especially as A competitive format but killing extended would basically invalidate 90% of available stock and greatly reduce the value of our collections. Very bad move IMO and goes back on a lot of 2.0 promises as well.

It is, was, and always should be one of two equally-supported formats. If you kill Extended then you kill my interest in Organized Play (and potentially my FLGS), plain and simple, and from this thread (of people that are already FFG devotees), it's pretty clear that I'm not the only one.

FFG isn't stupid. I very very highly doubt they'll ever kill Extended as a competitive format.

Kill? Certainly not. At least not in the foreseeable future.

But make Extended completely subservient to Hyperspace? Absolutely.

At the end of the day, this game only survives as long as product sells. Therefore, allowing a game mode in which most of the player base never has to buy product ever again to even have an equal share of the competitive scene runs completely anathema to the game's survival.

Extended can certainly continue to exist as the casual and side event format, but Hyperspace should (and I'd bet money soon will be) the only format for major events.

And if we care one iota about this game continuing to be printed, we should be willing to accept that.

13 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

anathema

16 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Extended can certainly continue to exist as the casual and side event format, but Hyperspace should (and I'd bet money soon will be) the only format for major events.

This is an idea that Stay on the Leader came up with, and I have no idea why it’s gained so much traction. It runs 100% counter to everything we know about FFG and 2.0.

Yeah sure they have to make money. How does banning the new VCX, Torrents, and Hound’s Tooth help them do that? How does losing 40%+ of their player base do that. It would MAJORLY hurt their brand, and that makes a bigger difference to the bottom line than OP formats ever could.

4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This is an idea that Stay on the Leader came up with, and I have no idea why it’s gained so much traction. It runs 100% counter to everything we know about FFG and 2.0.

Yeah sure they have to make money. How does banning the new VCX, Torrents, and Hound’s Tooth help them do that? How does losing 40%+ of their player base do that. It would MAJORLY hurt their brand, and that makes a bigger difference to the bottom line than OP formats ever could.

Not sure if you're serious there.

They need ships to rotate in, ships that are sold in 2.0. And there is no chance that they will get enough in time. And OP formats only affect... OP. No kitchen table cares about whether the worlds qualifier at SOS is extended or hyperspace. Why do I even jump in

9 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

but FFG is a ruthless corporation. as a traded cororate entity they are literally mandated by law to maximize their shareholders profits. they will rotate our collections out of playability to maximize sales unless the customer base firmly rejects that model.

if the company is mandated by law to maximize profits for their shareholders, then the alternative to a well selling game is not a less selling game. It's no game. The only thing we as customers can reject is the entire product, the entirety of X-Wing TMG. I don't want to do that. Not because I'm unable to convince those around me to play an extended game once in a while.