2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Now Muskets & Tomahawks . There's a good recent game.

Paring this back to the more relevant portion of the discussion.
I assume you mean the first edition of the game? I haven't had a chance to look over the latest edition to see what changes have been put in place.
I still see a decent number of "keywords," they just use the term "traits." But I think I understand your issue with Legion a bit better from comparing the two rulesets. Please correct me if I am wrong in the following assessment:

Judging from Muskets & Tomahawks I assume your preference would be for all possible modifiers of an attack to be listed in a single table in the "Attack" section of the rulebook. For instance, under "apply dodge and cover" have a table that said "each dodge token spent: remove one hit; Light cover remove 1 hit; etc."

Do you think this would make the game easier for you to understand?

I will agree that the reliance on keywords to modify dice results leads to the rules being more spread out than for many other rulesets. The keywords being alphabetized and the existence of an index help many people deal with that better than in other spread out rulesets. The reminder text on the back of the cards also helps people remember what the keyword does. Those sort of resources is why I know many people use listbuilders for keyword heavy games that produce a list containing some reminder or rules text. The fact that Legion has this sort of thing baked in is part of the "simplicity."

I also think that many of us are using different definitions of "complicated rules." My definition of a "complicated ruleset" is having to work out a target number by doing math in the middle of the game taking into account all the conditions of the attack from a table with more than say 5-10 modifiers. Also, rulesets that have more granularity in types of cover than a "light" and "heavy." Legion avoids the target number "complication" by just removing symbols from the results, the only time there is any manipulation of the "target number" is with the surge symbol. Additionally, rulesets that care what type of hand weapon is on the model, access to special types of attacks based on said weapon, track if the soldier ate this morning, etc are "complicated" to me. Lately, I've been re-reading the Middle Earth Strategy Game rules, which is guiding my current definition of complicated. My first exposure to wargaming was finding the boxed game of Wooden Ships and Iron Men in my father's office, which kind of set my initial bar for "complicated" in a different place than some. Compared to that, 40k was fairly straightforward for me.

On 6/19/2020 at 2:06 PM, TauntaunScout said:

That's been my point, yeah.

So I know this will sound like a shot at you sir, I apologize for that, but all you seem to do on this forum is rag on Legion (and to your own admission FFG games in general) as a game, talk about yourself, the fact that Hoth-based Star Wars uniforms and equipment are better than others and bask in the nostalgic feeling that older lower quality models are amazing because of a perceived level of enjoyment that you seem to garner from them. I know that seems like me indicting you scathingly, and I fairly may be, but I'm just curious as to why if you feel so negatively about this game or its constituent parts that you invest so much of your time commenting on posts and engaging in debate about it?

I normally wouldn't broach this but you comment on easily half the posts on this forum and in certain instances what you say isn't terribly constructive to a discussion. This thread as an example (which has gone from the merits of a particular card to the basis of Warhammer Fantasy and 40k rules in general to Muskets and Tomahawks).

Once again I'm sorry for calling you out. I'm sure you're a great guy, but I'm just super confused as to your motivations.

9 hours ago, Crawfskeezen said:

Once again I'm sorry for calling you out. I'm sure you're a great guy, but I'm just super confused as to your motivations.

I like the game as an overall experience. I would've written the rules completely differently. Rules are just one component of a game like this.

On 6/20/2020 at 8:26 PM, Caimheul1313 said:

On 6/20/2020 at 7:26 PM, TauntaunScout said:

Yup. You want your commander to be in range 3 of that guy but not worry about that other one, whilst the other character should stay within range 2 of that vehicle, and you need your squad to dodge THEN attack and NOT the other way around cause if not you won't get the 3 free aims from that thing over there... That's what Legion is like.

A strong push to your left (in Legion) doesn't really mean putting lots of troops on the left. It means arcane math that mostly affects the left. I want actual models to be the indicators of what's happening, not math I have to visualize in my head. Hence, my choice of models-based gaming.

You have again described every wargame I have ever played. Oldhammer has some of those elements too: "I want my archers to be in range of that unit, but make sure I keep them out of the charge range of THAT unit, and I need to move this unit here to block the charges, but if I get X spell off, then I'm going to do Y instead."

In any model-based gaming where every model isn't exactly the same, a strong push doesn't necessarily mean putting a lot of bodies on that side. It could mean putting more elite units that direction, or more characters. I've played historical miniature games where a strong push could be a single unit that is tailored for close quarters combat, which is basically math that has to be visualized. With some wargames (especially historicals) the models look almost exactly the same since they are all just people. At least here, the models look different

I have played two versions of Warmachine, Legion, and several other war games. If you really really want a game that units matter or a strong push could win the day then the best advice I could give is go play any Total War on the PC.

Not trying to be negative or dismissive I love that franchise as much as I love Legion. I come from a video gaming background so going into board games I came with a different point of view. So I get wanting a strong push to mean something. I have gone thought a lot of boardgames looking for the right system and lost dozen of matches thinking real tactics apply to most wargame.

It is just the best best battle experience I have every gotten is from total war. Pincer movements, flanking, holding the high ground, or watching horses charge into a spear wall. Man what great battle system.

Board games work better on a macro level like Eclipse and Rebellion (crazy hard rules tho). Almost every wargame I played it was hardcore math and it does not really feel like a battle like others have mentioned above.

Legion strongest point is how cool the units that you painted look on the board and playing with friends in person. Personally I love Legion, but I know I have to make compromises when I play.