How does Ackbar interact with Salvo?

My guess, before the ship is activated, Salvo works just like normal. After the ship, and Ackbar's effect for the ship, was activated, Salvo can only be performed if one of the side arcs are targeted by the original attack, but of course Ackbar's effect cannot be resolved for the Salvo attack because of no adding dice.

Yup, Salvo would be restricted by an Ackbar activated ship if it was shot in the front or rear hullzone.

2 hours ago, Karneck said:

Salvo would be restricted by an Ackbar activated ship if it was shot in the front or rear hullzone.

Why?

When performing a Salvo attack, what is the attacking hull zone? The relevant rules for Salvo state:

Quote

If the attacker was a ship, the defender performs a SALVO attack against the attacking hull zone using the defender's printed rear battery armament . If the attacker was a squadron, the defender performs a SALVO attack against the attacker using its printed anti-squadron armament .

• During a SALVO attack, the attack range and line-of-sight are treated as the same as those of the original attack, and firing arcs are ignored.

The rules cover the defending hull zone or squadron, the armament, range, line-of-sight and firing arcs, but say anything about which hull zone is attacking.

So assuming a Salvo attack is a type of attack, let's go to the rules on attacks:

Quote

1. Declare Target : The attacker declares the defender and the attacking hull zone, if any.

Normally in an attack the attacker chooses their hull zone. In a normal attack that matters for determining range, line-of-sight and firing arc, but in a Salvo attack none of that is relevant. So I would argue the Salvo attacker (so the ship that spent a Salvo token) gets to choose which hull zone they are attacking from, and so could choose a side arc. This would mirror Quad Laser Turrets, where the ship gets to choose hull zone (although there firing arc, line-of-sight and range work as normal).

I can see an argument for it always being the rear hull zone, but I don't think it's a very good one.

[As an aside, while we're here; Solar Corona and Salvo - you don't remove an accuracy no matter which hull zone you're shooting from as Solar Corona relies on firing arcs, and firing arcs are ignored.]

24 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

and firing arcs are ignored.

Maybe that is the relevant part. Ackbar and Salvo do not interact at all as arcs are ignored. The rule was meant for something else but could apply here.

2 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

Maybe that is the relevant part.

Firing arcs are not hull zones.

If the rule said to ignore hull zones, this question becomes easy (you ignore hull zones). But it says to ignore firing arcs. Firing arcs are associated with hull zones ("one for each") but hull zones are not dependent on firing arcs (defined by firing arc lines instead).

Also, can you even activate Ackbar after having performed a Salvo attack previously "from" a non-side hull zone, if the Salvo even originates from any hull zone.

I'd say that would work the same as with Quad Laser Turrets, and I don't know how that has been ruled. My instinct is that if you Salvo or QLT first from a front or rear hull zone you can't then Ackbar (as the Ackbar restriction applies "this round" not just "for the rest of this round" or "until the end of the round"), so if you have already attacked from the front or rear you can't choose to attack from only the side hull zones this round. But I'm happy to be corrected on that, particularly as this sets off my "causality-breaking" alarm.

4 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

I'd say that would work the same as with Quad Laser Turrets, and I don't know how that has been ruled. My instinct is that if you Salvo or QLT first from a front or rear hull zone you can't then Ackbar (as the Ackbar restriction applies "this round" not just "for the rest of this round" or "until the end of the round"), so if you have already attacked from the front or rear you can't choose to attack from only the side hull zones this round. But I'm happy to be corrected on that, particularly as this sets off my "causality-breaking" alarm.

Doesn’t “firing arcs are ignored” free Ackbar to use his ability no matter where the original attack is coming from?

My read on Salvo is that the attacks are conceptually being retaliated to from the firing arc associated with the defending hull zone, but to avoid sticky, confusing cases like this, they wisely chose to just mirror line of sight, and say that the ship isn’t really firing from any proper arc, thus, “firing arcs are ignored.”

”Sorry, you used Ackbar’s ability at the beginning of the turn, no Salvo for you!” That’s just a feel-bad. And I think “firing arcs are ignored” means that this line...

4 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

My instinct is that if you Salvo or QLT first from a front or rear hull zone...

... is meaningless. The Salvo doesn’t come FROM anywhere.

Unless I am mistaken.

39 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

The Salvo doesn’t come FROM anywhere.

That's the question. Does a Salvo attack come from a hull zone? If it does, which one, or does the ship that spent the Salvo token get to choose?

As you noted, the rules say to ignore firing arcs, but don't say to hull zones. A Salvo attack is a kind of attack (otherwise the normal attack rules wouldn't work - including it doing damage), and the rules for an attack say the person doing the attack has to choose the attacking hull zone.

So I think the Salvo attack does come from a hull zone, but the person making the attack gets to choose . So if they are running an Ackbar list they can always choose a side hull zone (and I think most players would be happy letting them do so retroactively - i.e. if they Salvoed earlier in a round and later choose to Ackbar). Normally with an attack it matters which hull zone is chosen, but for a Salvo attack I think Ackbar is the only situation in the game where it would matter - every other time it would make no difference.

27 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

That's the question. Does a Salvo attack come from a hull zone? If it does, which one, or does the ship that spent the Salvo token get to choose?

As you noted, the rules say to ignore firing arcs, but don't say to hull zones. A Salvo attack is a kind of attack (otherwise the normal attack rules wouldn't work - including it doing damage), and the rules for an attack say the person doing the attack has to choose the attacking hull zone.

So I think the Salvo attack does come from a hull zone, but the person making the attack gets to choose .

Respectfully, I feel like that’s a bit of a leap. It seems that the basic function of saying that the range and LOS from the original attack are used, and ignore firing arcs (and yes, I know I’m not using verbatim language here) is to avoid potentially confusing interactions like Ackbar (and maybe Slaved Turrets and such?). What I mean to say is that the rules I’m citing seem to be written specifically to address your initial questions. They’re just written sort of clumsily.

Or I’m wrong!

8 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

It seems that the basic function of saying that the range and LOS from the original attack are used, and ignore firing arcs (and yes, I know I’m not using verbatim language here) is to avoid potentially confusing interactions like Ackbar (and maybe Slaved Turrets and such?).

Slaved Turrets is clear. "You cannot attack more than once per round." You never want to put Slaved Turrets on a ship with a Salvo Token.

The rule about range, line of sight and ignoring firing arcs is there because attacks aren't symmetrical. Consider the attack below (contrived, but a useful example); the Starhawk shoots the SSD, front into front:

The Starhawk has line of sight, arc and the attack it is at medium range.

But the SSD has no valid shots back at the Starhawk. Front-to-front is out of arc, side-to-front doesn't have line of sight (even if the dust field wasn't there), and while right and right auxiliary have line of sight, arc and close range into the left of the Starhawk, the attack is blocked by the dust field.

The rule for Salvo attacks, that says you treat line of sight and range as the same as the original attack, and ignore firing arcs, means that if the SSD salvos the Starhawk's front-to-front attack, the SSD can make the shot, into the Starhawk's front, at medium range.

But that doesn't say anything about which hull zone performs the attack. Because we're ignoring firing arcs and not having to work out line-of-sight and range it doesn't make any difference which hull zone makes the attack. I think Ackbar and Salvation are the only effects in the game where that would matter.

Salvation and Salvo is atm impossible.

1 hour ago, RapidReload said:

Salvation and Salvo is atm impossible.

You had me for a while there... but Salvation and Salvo is possible via commander Agate (originally I was thinking Vanguard and Local Fire Team, but obviously that isn't possible with Salvation).

Not sure why you would build a list with commander Agate on a Salvation, but it's possible.

1 hour ago, Grumbleduke said:

You had me for a while there... but Salvation and Salvo is possible via commander Agate (originally I was thinking Vanguard and Local Fire Team, but obviously that isn't possible with Salvation).

Not sure why you would build a list with commander Agate on a Salvation, but it's possible.

Ah yes, Its actually possible :-).

7 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

Slaved Turrets is clear. "You cannot attack more than once per round." You never want to put Slaved Turrets on a ship with a Salvo Token.

The rule about range, line of sight and ignoring firing arcs is there because attacks aren't symmetrical. Consider the attack below (contrived, but a useful example); the Starhawk shoots the SSD, front into front:

The Starhawk has line of sight, arc and the attack it is at medium range.

But the SSD has no valid shots back at the Starhawk. Front-to-front is out of arc, side-to-front doesn't have line of sight (even if the dust field wasn't there), and while right and right auxiliary have line of sight, arc and close range into the left of the Starhawk, the attack is blocked by the dust field.

The rule for Salvo attacks, that says you treat line of sight and range as the same as the original attack, and ignore firing arcs, means that if the SSD salvos the Starhawk's front-to-front attack, the SSD can make the shot, into the Starhawk's front, at medium range.

But that doesn't say anything about which hull zone performs the attack. Because we're ignoring firing arcs and not having to work out line-of-sight and range it doesn't make any difference which hull zone makes the attack. I think Ackbar and Salvation are the only effects in the game where that would matter.

Excellent example. I’m gonna have to think about this for a minute.

I swore I saw something that said the Salvo attack uses the printed rear battery but comes from the hull zone that was attacked. I may have dreamt it.

Just so further debate isn't done. It is a question I am doing my best to get an answer from before worlds as it is very relevant. I have been informed that I will hopefully get that answer in the next week or so. (There are only a few Armada devs and they also work on many other games, so they are doing their best)

6 hours ago, Karneck said:

Just so further debate isn't done. It is a question I am doing my best to get an answer from before worlds as it is very relevant. I have been informed that I will hopefully get that answer in the next week or so. (There are only a few Armada devs and they also work on many other games, so they are doing their best)

I’m hoping they also plan to give you a ruling on “as-if” dials/tokens and combining them with tokens/dials? This has actually caused a LOT of confusion in my group lately...

5 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I’m hoping they also plan to give you a ruling on “as-if” dials/tokens and combining them with tokens/dials? This has actually caused a LOT of confusion in my group lately...

Its... complicated, but something along those lines should hopefully come to light.

On 3/8/2020 at 1:30 PM, Karneck said:

Just so further debate isn't done. It is a question I am doing my best to get an answer from before worlds as it is very relevant. I have been informed that I will hopefully get that answer in the next week or so. (There are only a few Armada devs and they also work on many other games, so they are doing their best)

Has any ruling come on Ackbar Salvo?

39 minutes ago, deDios said:

Has any ruling come on Ackbar Salvo?

From the KARM:

2. In regards to Ackbar and Salvo / Quad Laser Turrets.

If Ackbar’s commander ability has been resolved on a ship during its activation, and if that ship is later attacked from the front or rear hull zone, is the defending ship prevented from being able to use Salvo / Quad Laser Turrets against its attacker? As currently written it can "choose to attack from only its left and right hull zones this round.”

Karneck: It has been my conclusion that a ship attacked from the front and rear hull zones cannot Salvo / QLT from those hull zones. While I would love to see this restriction changed or lifted, that would require an errata.

Brooks: As written Ackbar does limit these effects once he is triggered (not before) , but it does pose a serious memory issue (especially if a judge call is necessary).

The answer is "its known" to the dev team behind armada. If it will ever be changed or not is up to them.

Otherwise as quoted from my manual. Ackbar (if resolved) restricts attacks to only left and right hull zones for the entire round, which limits salvo and counter to only those zones if those zones are attacked.

So either avoid using salvo with ackbar or be prepared with ships that aren't hurt by the drawback.