4 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

Then he ended up defecting

Man I hate star wars sometimes. Always with the defecting and whatnot...

4 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

Fel in a New Republic uniform

Doesn't even suit him! That man belongs in a black-as-night-or-I-suppose-space-would-be-more-appropriate jumpsuit. #notmysoont

8 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

And here's Soontir Fel in a DAMNED ******* X-WING.

Poor man looks so confused. He ain't used to all this fancy-shmancy 'shielding' and 'forgiving flight controls' garbage. My guy's over here looking for the 'shoot' button! 😔

There. Now you've done it!!

5 hours ago, Prosk_019 said:

Man I hate star wars sometimes. Always with the defecting and whatnot...

Doesn't even suit him! That man belongs in a black-as-night-or-I-suppose-space-would-be-more-appropriate jumpsuit. #notmysoont

Poor man looks so confused. He ain't used to all this fancy-shmancy 'shielding' and 'forgiving flight controls' garbage. My guy's over here looking for the 'shoot' button! 😔

You right, on all three accounts.

5 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

No, hang on. You don't get to shift goalposts here.

This isn't about what people on the boards here think. This is about you (unfairly) criticising EU authors for forcing everyone 'even Soontir frakking Fel' into an X-Wing at some point because 'bias'.

Soontir Fel was conceived as an X-Wing pilot. He was a Rogue with a different backstory that happened to get that backstory explained early.

This isn't anything to do with EU authors making the story deliberately oblique or whatever you're criticising it for. Rogue Squadron weren't popular because of some 'X-Wing bias' - they were popular because they were Luke and Wedge's squadron from the movies, and they happened to fly X-Wings because that's what Luke and Wedge flew. And 'EU authors' didn't take a fan favourite Imperial character and illogically twist him into an X-Wing pilot through an obscure family connection as your post above snidely implies.

The guy who created him wanted him to be a Rogue Squadron pilot, first and foremost, whose backstory was that he was the Imperial Red Baron. It's not Stackpole's fault the fan community latched on to him as like the only developed Imperial pilot.

Of COURSE Rogue Squadron wasn't popular because of X-Wing bias, but homie you really gonna' assert there isn't an X-Wing bias? Gods, just look at how they treated the poor E-Wing.

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

There. Now you've done it!!

I will absolutely end you for this!!1!1!one!1!

No but for real that'd be severely undercosted.

6 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

No but for real [X-wing Soontir]'d be severely undercosted.

Would it, though?

Squint Soontir is powerful because he can double reposition and Focus, or reposition and token stack, or token stack without stress.

In an X-wing, he could none of those things. The best he can do is single reposition and double Focus, or Target lock and Focus, if he succeeds in lining up his bullseye. And without the double reposition, that's a lot harder.

3 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Would it, though?

Squint Soontir is powerful because he can double reposition and Focus, or reposition and token stack, or token stack without stress.

In an X-wing, he could none of those things. The best he can do is single reposition and double Focus, or Target lock and Focus, if he succeeds in lining up his bullseye. And without the double reposition, that's a lot harder.

Maybe, but one has to consider the targeting computer too. Homie can joust and get double mods.

****, that'd scare Wedge and Poe both.

16 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

There. Now you've done it!!

You know not what fresh **** you hath wrought upon these forsaken lands...

18 minutes ago, Prosk_019 said:

****

Aw they're really gonna censor h-e-l-l?

3 hours ago, Prosk_019 said:

Aw they're really gonna censor h-e-l-l?

Yeah, it's dumb.

And for the (almost an Epic ship} epic conclusion:

Personal Luxury Yacht 3000

At 50meters, this ship is 1.5x long as a YT-1300, and 1/2 as long as a GR-75. I'm going to call it Large, because Huge seems just too much. It gets the Hull and Shields of right up the middle, however.

And even a Scum version, because I really like the idea of this "buy my way out of trouble" ability:

I take some issue with the fact that Lando can basically double-coordinate for zero cost. Kind of weird.

As for the weapons... What's up with that? The Sorosuub 3000 doesn't have a turret. Lady Lucky has an anti-personnel gun in the ventral, sure, but that's the same kinda' jobber The Falcon has and that's never represented. Then again, it does need some kind of weapon...

Eh, don't mind me... I'm just

I'm just feeling homesick. I miss my Yacht.

20 hours ago, KCDodger said:

I take some issue with the fact that Lando can basically double-coordinate for zero cost. Kind of weird.

As for the weapons... What's up with that? The Sorosuub 3000 doesn't have a turret. Lady Lucky has an anti-personnel gun in the ventral, sure, but that's the same kinda' jobber The Falcon has and that's never represented.

Oops. The hazards of cut-n-paste. So, rather than double coordinate, how 'bout improved coordinate?

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Then again, it does need some kind of weapon...

Exactly.

Although I'm still of the opinion that ships with 0-1 attack dice that need secondaries to attack is an unexplored design space.

3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Oops. The hazards of cut-n-paste. So, rather than double coordinate, how 'bout improved coordinate?

Exactly.

Although I'm still of the opinion that ships with 0-1 attack dice that need secondaries to attack is an unexplored design space.

That's what I'd do with the Missile Boat tbh, but FFG is never doing 1 attack ever again.

Also, Improved coordinate... I suppose.

Wraith Squadron

I mean, just because. . .

@Darth Meanie my favorite squadron! Hurray!

So, my only question is if Garik “Face” should really be an i3? I mean, he does take over after Wedge is promoted out of squadron command? I realize that’s not always the sign of a good pilot, but I’d bump him to 4.

I really like the flavor that’s been captured here. If we got this as a card pack someday I’d be a very happy xwing player.

7 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

@Darth Meanie my favorite squadron! Hurray!

So, my only question is if Garik “Face” should really be an i3? I mean, he does take over after Wedge is promoted out of squadron command? I realize that’s not always the sign of a good pilot, but I’d bump him to 4.

I really like the flavor that’s been captured here. If we got this as a card pack someday I’d be a very happy xwing player.

I kept everyone low because it was supposed to be a squadron of wash-outs. I mean, I assume even Soontir Fel wasn't an I6 right out of the academy.

I mean, I can't really argue he's not an I4, and I guess I4 could mean he's destined for greater things. . .

20 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

This is a weird way of doing this.

For one thing, this is upgrade card language. For another, it's 1e upgrade language at that.

Second edition doesn't use 'add x to the action bar' anymore. Look at Targeting Computer, or S-foils or Ion Cannon Turret. New actions are added via a symbol in the 'action bar' side of the card.

But beyond that, pilot cards in second edition don't need to be static. If you want a given pilot to have a specific action, just give them that action. Look at the Hyena Droid Bomber pilot cards, their actions vary based on pilot because they're suggesting different build configs. There's nothing to stop you just adding these actions to the bar on the side. This would mean they had no ability text, however.

That said, when it comes to organic pilots getting access to unique actions, FFG tend to work it into the pilot ability - either explicitly or by giving them an ability that amounts to the same thing but with a condition. An example of the former is Leevan Tenza, he's the only T-65 pilot with access to the evade action, essentially via a linked action. If FFG wanted to, they could have just given Leevan a linked evade off his barrel roll and left his ability text empty. An example of the latter is Rebel Lando, who basically gets co-ordinate but only after a blue maneuver but it also works on himself.

I think access to the respective actions makes sense for both these pilots, but I think it's way more interesting if they have a specific spin on it rather than just being a generic T-65 with Jam or Co-ordinate (which tbh gives me little reason to take either, if I want a ship for co-ordinates I'm going to want one with crew slots that improve the support role - I want my T-65s to have mods so that they can kill things).

Jesmin could be performing a red co-ordinate after she gains a green token, Grinder could be assigning a jam token to anyone who ends up in his rear arc after a maneuver as a cool anti-pursuit measure.

20 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I get the vibe of this one, you're looking at Kell as the demolitions expert.

You've got some confusing wording here though. That crit symbol refers to the die result, not the card. Look at Maarek or Rexler. The trigger phrasing you're looking for is 'if the defender would be dealt faceup damage card'. There's also no such thing as a 'critical' damage card in FFG parlance. Again, it's faceup damage card. Technically I also don't think you need the re- prefix, you'd just draw a new card.

With that said, I think this is a bit of a lacklustre ability for Kell. He's basically the main character of Wraith Squadron (the book, not the series), and is the guy who received the Star Wars medal of honor for trying to save another pilot by crashing his X-Wing into hers and trying to physically shove her out of a dive. I feel like he needs something a lot more heroic. And if you can work in his crippling self doubt and fear of failure that's even better.

How's this, based off Arvel:

"If you would fail a [barrel roll] or [boost] action by overlapping another ship, resolve it as though you were partially executing a maneuver instead. After performing a [barrel roll] or [boost] action, if you are at range 0 of a friendly ship, that ship gains 1 evade token. Then gain 1 stress token."

20 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I get that because Ton is covered in cybernetics, you're just giving him Contraband Cybernetics as a pilot ability. But that feels a little uninspired for one of the best characters in Star Wars.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to weaponise acerbic wit as a pilot ability. I feel like he should synergise with Face somehow. After all, they were finishing each other's sentences after hours of meeting, and Ton is basically the reason Face becomes a leader down the line.

Might have to come back to this one though, I'm struggling to think of anything appropriately Ton at the moment.

20 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

So even before I get into more detail on Face, I don't understand what this ability is trying to do.

It's not even a question of the language being standard, I honestly don't know what you mean with any of this. What's a friendly action? What does 'use the benefit' mean?

Are you trying to say that if an enemy at range 1 performs a focus action, Face also gets a focus token?

If so, I'd probably phrase it more like this:

"After an enemy ship at range 1 performs an action, if it gained a green token you may spend 1 [charge] to gain a token of the same type."

If you're trying to say they get to do whatever action the enemy does, then that's really simple to phrase but potentially a bit broken.

"After an enemy ship at range 1 performs an action, you may perform that action" - god knows what happens if they cloak, though.

If you want Face to gain the result of the action without it being an action, but it applies to non-token actions (as in after they perform a barrel action, Face can perform a barrel roll) then I have no idea.

In general, I like the idea of Face being able to mimic his enemies. I do think his ability should be more of a deception, though. Admittedly that's kind of hard to pull off in X-Wing. 1e Han Crew's ability to spend a lock essentially as if it were a focus token is a great way to simulate bluffing or cheating, depending on how you look at it, but I don't know how you apply that sort of ability to Face without it being another boring 'change your dial' mechanic.

One possible option you could explore is the other thing that made Face famous, though - the "Loran Spitball", which is having X-Wings launch their torpedoes while still in the hangar as a sort of unexpected alpha strike. That'd probably mean making his ability dependent on carrying torps, though, and that's a bit weak.

Either way, I agree with @ScummyRebelthat Face should at least be an I4 if not an I5.

10 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I kept everyone low because it was supposed to be a squadron of wash-outs. I mean, I assume even Soontir Fel wasn't an I6 right out of the academy.

I mean, I can't really argue he's not an I4, and I guess I4 could mean he's destined for greater things. . .

They're washouts, yeah. But not necessarily because of pilot ability.

Face was mostly in trouble because of a history of insubordination and an altercation with his first commander. He had an attitude problem because he basically bought is way into the NR starfighter corps. He's the second best pilot after Kell in the initial tests, and Kell is described as being Rogue Squadron worthy in terms of skill.

Also, I think since the changeover to Initiative from Pilot Skill, you second point definitely holds true. Initiative definitely feels like more of a measure of potential than ability at any one point in time. Look at Wedge. His tagline is Red 2, which suggests the card represents Yavin era Wedge. But he's still I6 despite being younger, less experienced, more panicky and generally a less complete pilot than he is by the time of Endor. If we were looking strictly at Yavin Wedge, he'd probably by I4.

So I think Face's initiative should definitely not be tied to when the Wraiths are just starting out.

20 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

You've changed Myn.

That's just Scourge Skutu's ability now, which seems a little boring.

What happened to denying the range bonus, I liked that.

Still think

"While you perform an attack at range 2-3, if the defender is in your bullseye arc you may roll 1 additional attack die and prevent the range 3 bonus."

is a more fitting ability for him and puts him in a slightly different niche (also stops a 5 dice attack at range, which I think is a good thing - **** Fenn).

I like the rest of the abilities you've come up with though, Tyria especially feels right. And I like Falynn a lot too. I think I maybe prefer @JJ48's take on Piggy though.

I know you've already got Jesmin for co-ordinates, but Piggy co-ordinating after a calculate is literally what he does in the books. It's spot on. He spends their first fight basically spamming the comms channel telling other pilots exactly when to bank, break or fire because he's calculated all the trajectories of all the ships around him. It stresses the **** out of everyone, but eventually they learn to use his ability productively.

If you did go that way with Piggy, Jesmin would probably need changing as otherwise it would be the same ability. Jesmin's hard actually, she doesn't really do much before she dies. She's only in two space battles. The first one, she's able to warn the squadron before the Imps arrive based on comm traffic. So maybe something that affects enemies of higher initiative than her or something on setup?

3 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

I think access to the respective actions makes sense for both these pilots, but I think it's way more interesting if they have a specific spin on it rather than just being a generic T-65 with Jam or Co-ordinate (which tbh gives me little reason to take either, if I want a ship for co-ordinates I'm going to want one with crew slots that improve the support role - I want my T-65s to have mods so that they can kill things).

Jesmin could be performing a red co-ordinate after she gains a green token, Grinder could be assigning a jam token to anyone who ends up in his rear arc after a maneuver as a cool anti-pursuit measure.

As I try to bang out a dozen pilot abilities, some do just get thrown under the bus. OTOH, I agree that a layer of complexity makes them feel more special as pilots. I actually really your idea for Grinder, as well.

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I get the vibe of this one, you're looking at Kell as the demolitions expert.

You've got some confusing wording here though. That crit symbol refers to the die result, not the card. Look at Maarek or Rexler. The trigger phrasing you're looking for is 'if the defender would be dealt faceup damage card'. There's also no such thing as a 'critical' damage card in FFG parlance. Again, it's faceup damage card. Technically I also don't think you need the re- prefix, you'd just draw a new card.

With that said, I think this is a bit of a lacklustre ability for Kell. He's basically the main character of Wraith Squadron (the book, not the series), and is the guy who received the Star Wars medal of honor for trying to save another pilot by crashing his X-Wing into hers and trying to physically shove her out of a dive. I feel like he needs something a lot more heroic. And if you can work in his crippling self doubt and fear of failure that's even better.

How's this, based off Arvel:

"If you would fail a [barrel roll] or [boost] action by overlapping another ship, resolve it as though you were partially executing a maneuver instead. After performing a [barrel roll] or [boost] action, if you are at range 0 of a friendly ship, that ship gains 1 evade token. Then gain 1 stress token."

Yeah, I like that. Also, there are enough pilots that play with critical cards already.

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I get that because Ton is covered in cybernetics, you're just giving him Contraband Cybernetics as a pilot ability. But that feels a little uninspired for one of the best characters in Star Wars.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to weaponise acerbic wit as a pilot ability. I feel like he should synergise with Face somehow. After all, they were finishing each other's sentences after hours of meeting, and Ton is basically the reason Face becomes a leader down the line.

Might have to come back to this one though, I'm struggling to think of anything appropriately Ton at the moment.

Yeah, he was last so his idea was one of the least inspired. And while I realize it's just a port-over, it did allow a Rebel to have a Scum-only option, and clearly the ability exists in game so it's not broken.

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So even before I get into more detail on Face, I don't understand what this ability is trying to do.

In general, I like the idea of Face being able to mimic his enemies.

Either way, I agree with @ScummyRebelthat Face should at least be an I4 if not an I5.

The idea with Face was that he could "steal" an enemy ship's ability that is only supposed to work on friendlies. In that he "tricked" the enemy into helping him. The language was horribly cumbersome to make it make sense. . .

I'll make him I4, for sure. . .

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You've changed Myn.

What happened to denying the range bonus, I liked that.

Oops. Not on purpose. Sometimes I overwrite a file, though. . .

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I think I maybe prefer @JJ48's take on Piggy though.

I know you've already got Jesmin for co-ordinates, but Piggy co-ordinating after a calculate is literally what he does in the books. It's spot on. He spends their first fight basically spamming the comms channel telling other pilots exactly when to bank, break or fire because he's calculated all the trajectories of all the ships around him. It stresses the **** out of everyone, but eventually they learn to use his ability productively.

I'll take a look at JJ48's Piggy. Obviously, I'd prefer to start by not plagarizing, but if in the long run I'd prefer to adopt his idea if it's better.

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I like the rest of the abilities you've come up with though, Tyria especially feels right. And I like Falynn a lot too.

Thanks!! Your input and insight is always amazingly helpful, too.