19 hours ago, Wiredin said:

Boba is a deadly counter to the A-wings tho as he is insanely hard to get damage into with just 2 die attacks.

Does this assume he has perco, takes a focus action, and has an enemy in R1 for a reroll?

45 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

The SFs have a similar streak with Optics, but a little less so, but if you are taking a generic SF, you are taking Optics.

Zetas with Concussion Missiles. They may not be able to guarantee a first engagement missile shot, but in subsequent rounds they can be very, very nasty, especially against mid-low agility ships. If you really want it, you can invest in Passive Sensors to guarantee your shots.

@Pewpewpew BOOM; Maul is the answer. He frees Boba's action up so he can boost, which when coupled with Slave-1 title almost guarantees he'll be getting into range one of someone.

53 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

More attention should be brought to a ship that 7 out of 8 of it's pilots always take an upgrade.

Especially when spammed multiple times in one list.

This is the same issue as with Juke: One phantom (e.g. Whisper) making use of Juke always seemed okay....it's been the 4 Sigmas all fitting Juke who have been a problem.

Having just started with 5A I seem to roll Focus/Blank nearly every time! And also not be able to spend focus because I need it for defence.

I understand the argument that it feels bad though.

53 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

Zetas with Concussion Missiles. They may not be able to guarantee a first engagement missile shot, but in subsequent rounds they can be very, very nasty, especially against mid-low agility ships. If you really want it, you can invest in Passive Sensors to guarantee your shots.

@Pewpewpew BOOM; Maul is the answer. He frees Boba's action up so he can boost, which when coupled with Slave-1 title almost guarantees he'll be getting into range one of someone.

Makes sense.
I really like boosting the the Firespray and have thought perco was really beneficial, but also really constraining.

Just now, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Makes sense.
I really like boosting the the Firespray and have thought perco was really beneficial, but also really constraining.

My comment does stem from my recent experiences against Boba-Fenn, I'd imagine that if a Scum player wanted to fly more ships/not ride the dice variance rollercoaster (every shot taken by Fenn Rau which isn't a range one forward-arc can potentially cripple him), they quickly have to start compromising on toys like Maul. PerCo becomes a reasonable compromise card in that situation.

9 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

My comment does stem from my recent experiences against Boba-Fenn, I'd imagine that if a Scum player wanted to fly more ships/not ride the dice variance rollercoaster (every shot taken by Fenn Rau which isn't a range one forward-arc can potentially cripple him), they quickly have to start compromising on toys like Maul. PerCo becomes a reasonable compromise card in that situation.

PerCo isn't terrible, but 0-0-0 is cheaper and also allows Boba his own action. If I'm rating the three, Maul > 0-0-0 > PerCo.

59 minutes ago, KettchGER said:

Especially when spammed multiple times in one list.

This is the same issue as with Juke: One phantom (e.g. Whisper) making use of Juke always seemed okay....it's been the 4 Sigmas all fitting Juke who have been a problem.

Ok, I can have a discussion about pricing on RZ-2’s, and even a discussion about “stapled on” upgrades, but is the argument here really that 5A is as bad as quad phantoms, or was that just a poor choice of comparison (7B is probably the better - but still not perfect - comparison)?

Edit: my comment comes off as pissy, it isn’t supposed to be, I promise. I just think if we are having a discussion, hyperbole should be left at the door.

I'm out, no point in reasoning someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Optics is not a problem.

2 hours ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Does this assume he has perco, takes a focus action, and has an enemy in R1 for a reroll?

the one I'm seeing hanging out around these parts is Maul, proton bombs, fearless, slave 1. with maul he can boost without loosing a mod which makes it easy for him to close distance.

Granted Boba has been a royal pain in my side since day 1. he is my kryptonite. I think I have won against him maybe twice. The first time I took him down was a lucky Poe trickshot R3 through a rock with HLC that connected with all natties into all blanks. then Tallile and Lulo were able to procket him that same turn. this was back in the han gunner perceptive Boba days.

On 2/3/2020 at 6:49 AM, theBitterFig said:

I feel like it's easy to forget that the upgrade was in 1e, and no one ever used it. I find that a really interesting history for Advanced Optics.

Weapons Guidance had the exact same text, at the exact same price (given the 100->200 switch), and it never really fit anywhere.

Yeah the only list that ever made it work was 5 Omega’s with Crack & Weapons Guidance. Think one of the 512 Squadron guys made top 4 at Gencon. I ran it myself and loved the theme. Now in 2.0, instead of 5 FO’s you can have 5 SF’s lol.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in 2.0 feels like Quad-TLT-Ghost back in 1st Edition

Now where's my tea?

1 hour ago, ayedubbleyoo said:

Having just started with 5A I seem to roll Focus/Blank nearly every time!

If I have my math correct, probability of rolling focus/blank is 6.25%. Add to that the probability of double blanking and then Heroic rerolling into either double blank or focus blank, and you get 7.03% chance of getting only one his result. It could be confirmation bias, or probability swinging particularly hard. In any case, you get probability of lock/focus within 1 percent in one action, likely with a linked boost barrel roll or rotate action.

As for anyone using the "you may have to spend focus to defend" defense, everyone's offense is hampered when they have to spend focus on defense. If we argued that Push the Limit wasn't good because lock/focus you got from it wasn't as good if you had to spend focus on defense, we'd be called absurd. It isn't a 1 to 1 comparison, but the argument strikes me as lacking. Your better offense become just as good as anyone else's offense if you spend your focus.

And again, 5A w/Heroic is still possible with a single point uptick. You still get named pilots, too. Proof. And you can build them several different ways. As it is, you almost have to make no choices. Staple Heroic and Optics to 4 named A's and an unnamed A. Would we be fine if 5SF with Fanatical Optics could fit Backdraft, LeHuse, and Quickdraw as three of those SF? Or even just Backdraft and Quick? I'd imagine not.

Oh jeez, ****. If only there were a way to arc dodge the optics UNLIKE GHOST FENN. Or if there were a way to jam off the focus for the optics UNLIKE GHOST FENN. I wonder if the optic people take damage when shot at UNLIKE GHOST FENN.

4 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Oh jeez, ****. If only there were a way to arc dodge the optics UNLIKE GHOST FENN. Or if there were a way to jam off the focus for the optics UNLIKE GHOST FENN. I wonder if the optic people take damage when shot at UNLIKE GHOST FENN.

Likening 5A + Heroic Optics to Ghost/Fenn was a poor choice by OP, but it comparing them statistically to just 4 TLT shots shakes out pretty well.

52 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

If I have my math correct, probability of rolling focus/blank is 6.25%. Add to that the probability of double blanking and then Heroic rerolling into either double blank or focus blank, and you get 7.03% chance of getting only one his result. It could be confirmation bias, or probability swinging particularly hard. In any case, you get probability of lock/focus within 1 percent in one action, likely with a linked boost barrel roll or rotate action.

Of course it is. That's why NPE rhetoric shouldn't be applied to dice. Dice-feelings are always going to be bad. We remember the 3-blank into 3-blank reroll with a lock. Gotta trust the averages.

52 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Would we be fine if 5SF with Fanatical Optics could fit Backdraft, LeHuse, and Quickdraw as three of those SF? Or even just Backdraft and Quick? I'd imagine not.

I mean, the best 5 Optics SF list is 4 Omegas with Crack Shot, and Crack Shot Backdraft. Extended not HS, but still.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

Likening 5A + Heroic Optics to Ghost/Fenn was a poor choice by OP, but it comparing them statistically to just 4 TLT shots shakes out pretty well.

2x unmodded 3-attacks will almost always deal 2 damage.

1x 93% chance of a 2-hit attack will often deal one.

TLT is 360 degrees and action independent.

Y-Wings have 8 health.

It’s nothing alike.

As an aside: Optics are probably okay. RZ-2s are one point cheap on average (L’ulo down Zizi UUUUP)

I can see why someone would find 5A frustrating, and perhaps they are a little under costed for how amazing a platform they are - but Ghost/Fenn levels? I don't see it being even close to that, let's not forget that Ghost/Fenn wasn't just about the 4 modded TLT shots, but also silly things like putting the Ghost on a rock, then coordinating the boost at ps11 from Fenn (not to mention the Fenn ability + Sensor Jammer bs).

Dash/Miranda, Dengaroo, Triple Jumps - all worse than 5A for my money.

I'd keep AO the same and maybe nudge the A's up 1, especially as Resistance begin to get more toys to play with, allowing them to rely less on the RZ-2.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

2x unmodded 3-attacks will almost always deal 2 damage.

1x 93% chance of a 2-hit attack will often deal one.

It’s nothing alike.

4 TLT shots from garner around 4 damage. 5 two die Optics shots garners around 4 damage (albeit with a higher damage potential). I believe that is the psuedo-TLT feeling. Both give the "feels bad mans" of I cannot avoid that many shots.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Optics are probably okay. RZ-2s are one point cheap on average (L’ulo down Zizi UUUUP)

I mean, this basically accomplishes the same effect as upping Optics by 1. Up the generics SFs by 1 and drop the cost of SF Gunner, and I'm on board.

10 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

4 TLT shots from garner around 4 damage. 5 two die Optics shots garners around 4 damage (albeit with a higher damage potential). I believe that is the psuedo-TLT feeling. Both give the "feels bad mans" of I cannot avoid that many shots.

Except TLT can do it without the Focus. RZ-2s can't. You can fly 4x TLT and get 6-8 damage per turn very consistently. You can't do that with AO even in 5A. Lots of ships have an easy time dodging 2 hits (which heroic AO doesn't even always give) but many more have a hard time dodging an occasional 3 hits – it's a very important dice threshold.

Against AO it's a game of duck-and-dodge, focus on defense, try to get a hit in, tank against 2-dice. Against TLT it's just a timer: You have [(squad health)/6ish] turns to kill 32 health behind 1 agility. That's really not a game anyone wants to play.

Example: A Millenium Falcon can stay R3 and lean on its 2-dice-and-rerolls against AO, or can boost out of all arcs. It has a reasonable chance of tanking against it for a long time. Vs TLT it doesn't get range bonus, doesn't get to dodge, and doesn't even have half as many dice as the two attacks per ship coming against it. Sure, there's a hard cap of how much damage they can deal, but that cap at 2 damage per round is extremely high! How many ships wish they could deal two damage every single round?

10 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I mean, this basically accomplishes the same effect as upping Optics by 1. Up the generics SFs by 1 and drop the cost of SF Gunner, and I'm on board.

Same team.

Gods can you remember how awful that ghost was to play against? Ugh.

9 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

If I have my math correct, probability of rolling focus/blank is 6.25%. Add to that the probability of double blanking and then Heroic rerolling into either double blank or focus blank, and you get 7.03% chance of getting only one his result. It could be confirmation bias, or probability swinging particularly hard. In any case, you get probability of lock/focus within 1 percent in one action, likely with a linked boost barrel roll or rotate action.

Actually, seems worth it to correct the math. For a First Order ship, the 1-hit scenario is the cases BB, BF, FB. Each outcome has a 4/64 chance, and there are three outcomes, so 12/64, or 18.75%. With Heroic, that changes, with some complications to the BB case, resulting in a 13.671875% chance of a single-hit attack.

Busting out some binobial calculations (not doing it long hand... https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx ), this will work out that a squad of 5 TIE/sf all with shots will have a 35% chance of all getting 2-hits results, and 65% of the time there will be at least one single-hit attack.

For 5 Heroic A-Wings, making 5 attacks leads to a 48% chance of all 2-hit results, and 52% of the time there will be a 1-hit attack.

Maybe this is still too high a chance of all 2-hit attacks for the cost, but at least the math is correct.

Are people actually complaining about AO? Its the one of few cards that makes 2 dice attack ships not be complete turds.

On two dice attack ships its slightly worse than a focus + lock, cant be saved like a lock can, and requires actually being able to action for a focus, so no bumping, red moves etc.

5 SFs are not world dominating. They are tough because of AO.

5 Awings is not world dominating. They are just tough because of AO.

Spamming AO 5 times means a list is practically losing an entire extra ship.

Just gonna quote @Stay OT Leader here from another thread:

"Ugg lose.

Not Ugg’s fault Ugg lose.

Ugg angry."

17 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

PerCo isn't terrible, but 0-0-0 is cheaper and also allows Boba his own action. If I'm rating the three, Maul > 0-0-0 > PerCo.

I'd broadly agree - but - given that we're talking about 'auto-choices', the fact that there are three perfectly sensible choices for Boba is a good thing.

12 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Sure, there's a hard cap of how much damage they can deal, but that cap at 2 damage per round is extremely high! How many ships wish they could deal two damage every single round?

I'd agree. I've seen plenty of people take Ion Cannons and Ion Turrets for the 3rd attack die, even with a 1 damage cap, and the same logic applies.

10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Actually, seems worth it to correct the math. For a First Order ship, the 1-hit scenario is the cases BB, BF, FB. Each outcome has a 4/64 chance, and there are three outcomes, so 12/64, or 18.75%

I knew something felt fishy about my math. I only counted blank/focus, but not focus/blank.

10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

For 5 Heroic A-Wings, making 5 attacks leads to a 48% chance of all 2-hit results, and 52% of the time there will be a 1-hit attack.

48% chance of 10 hits. 52% chance to get 9 hits. 86% chance for 8 hits. 98% chance for 7 hits.