Just this once: I'm sorry @5050Saint to say this, but you are embarassing yourself here, and I really hate to see that. It's really better you just stop and let this go. I'm not trying to silence you. I do that out of respect, not for lack of it.

Your numbers don't mean a thing:

• 6 Strikers have 52% chance to get 14 hits, down to 98% chance of 10 hits. Just with focus. Take interceptors and you have even 3 agility.
• 5 Xwings have 46% chance of 12 hits, down to 94% chance of 9 hits. Just with focus.
• 3 attacks with focus+lock have 56% chance to get 9 hits, still better than your Awing calculation. Getting 3 focus+lock shots or a (rough) equivalent is relatively easy. Jess, Poe and Bastian for example, can just do that. And 3 attacks means the defenders will roll fewer greens. And the actual damage put through will be higher.

You know what they don't have? A track record of success. Optics is not a problem.
So many written things that are just flat out wrong. Some of us already do just 4 optics on 5A, for example. And 6A never took off, indicating that you should take optics - or just other 2dice attack ships.

Now, how do we square the circle and remove that seeming contradiction of saying optics not sufficient, but that it is necessary? Simple, even 2.0 does not let you take just 5-6 ships with 2dice attacks and nothing else.

Most 2dice attack ship containing lists have either other ships with better offense, or they contain something to turn these 2dice attacks more valuable. Sinker, Howlrunner, ESCs, TA175, Sear, VTG for twice the attacks, sheer numbers like the FOcho, you name it. And most of them have more than 5 ships. 5A do the same thing with optics. That enables them. It is necessary for them to work as massed 2dice attack ships. But it is not the strength of the list.
What makes 5A so strong is the time on target, fire duty cycle, whatever you want to call it. They get a lot of shots. That's the secret sauce. A 3dice gun would be just as good with a rear arc and a free boost. It would be better, actually, way better. Without optics. Because Optics is not a problem.

Also, @ClassicalMoser , the generics are fine where they are. Probably Greer and Tallie, and definitely Zizi should go up. Increasing the generics was a mistake back in Summer, and that mistake just got reversed. Why would you want to repeat that mistake yet again?

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You know what they don't have? Or a track record of success.

Or a track record of failure, for that matter. 5X or 6SK might be good, but we've had about 1 major (extended) tournament to determine whether or not it will be.

What 5A has on those two lists is maneuverability, double reposition, agility, initiative, named pilots (potentially), a bid if it wants one, and most importantly time on target while still getting mods, as you acknowledged.

@GreenDragoon I'm not dying on this hill. But I think it's worth discussing, so I am. Also, you give intelligent, rational feedback, so I don't feel like I'm shouting at a wall, despite knowing that you aren't going to budge. You actually know what you are talking about, so I am enjoying this discussion.

20 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Gods can you remember how awful that ghost was to play against? Ugh.

No because one time was enough that I stopped playing for nearly a year until 2.0 edition.

2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

@GreenDragoon I'm not dying on this hill. But I think it's worth discussing, so I am. Also, you give intelligent, rational feedback, so I don't feel like I'm shouting at a wall, despite knowing that you aren't going to budge. You actually know what you are talking about, so I am enjoying this discussion.

Starting with hyperbole thread title does not lead to rational discussions.

Can we ban comparisons to TLT given how laughably hyperbolic they'll (hopefully) always be in second edition?

You're not dealing with multiple double tap, 360 turrets. You're not dealing with accuracy corrector giving guaranteed hits regardless of losing action or using it on anything but focus OR using the focus defensively. You're not even dealing with ignoring the range 3 bonus.

****, you're not even dealing with 3 dice outside range 1

14 minutes ago, So Crates said:

Starting with hyperbole thread title does not lead to rational discussions.

That would be relevant, if I had been the one to start and/or title the thread.

17 minutes ago, So Crates said:

No because one time was enough that I stopped playing for nearly a year until 2.0 edition.

I did the exact same thing. By the time I started seeing Ghost/Fenn, 2.0 was close enough that I just stopped playing X-wing.

Fenn/Ghost/TLT was terrible and nothing like AO. Which is why I immediately concluded that this thread was, at best, a masterfully crafted troll post.

8 minutes ago, Rettere said:

I did the exact same thing. By the time I started seeing Ghost/Fenn, 2.0 was close enough that I just stopped playing X-wing.

Fenn/Ghost/TLT was terrible and nothing like AO. Which is why I immediately concluded that this thread was, at best, a masterfully crafted troll post.

It could also be well-intentioned venting after a rough game. If we’re being honest, most of us have had at least the impulse to do the same thing. Heck, I just started a topic kvetching about the entirety of hyperspace, only to realize in short order that I was being stubborn and more than a little ridiculous.

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Also, @ClassicalMoser , the generics are fine where they are. Probably Greer and Tallie, and definitely Zizi should go up. Increasing the generics was a mistake back in Summer, and that mistake just got reversed. Why would you want to repeat that mistake yet again?

I don't play resistance so I guess I was just wrong. I guess maybe the RZ-2 is fine. Maybe the RZ-1 still needs a slight drop, or maybe the price difference is okay now? 29 for a Phoenix isn't that bad.

I'll keep on playing them and see how it goes. I'll be practicing my hyperspace list some more tomorrow night.

11 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I guess maybe the RZ-2 is fine.

No! Please, read again. I directly say "Probably Greer and Tallie, and definitely Zizi should go up. " The generics are fine, not the named pilots. Lulo got his deserved +5 (!) already. Zari might be ok as an i3. But the three mentioned are clearly just a bit too good.*

edit: * specifically, Greer at least +1, Tallie at least +1, Zizi more like +3-6.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

No! Please, read again. I directly say "Probably Greer and Tallie, and definitely Zizi should go up. " The generics are fine, not the named pilots. Lulo got his deserved +5 (!) already. Zari might be ok as an i3. But the three mentioned are clearly just a bit too good.

Oh no, I know! Especially Zizi is upon-release L'ulo levels of disgusting. But when I discuss a chassis and its viability, I usually do so in terms of the generics. I treat named pilots as an entity of their own. You can't directly cross-compare ships otherwise (and I know you really can't anyway because faction balance but I still like to).

In my opinion, the TIE Interceptor was never fine until this last adjustment, Soontir notwithstanding. (I guess exceptions apply to stuff like the VCX, Rebel TIE, YTs, etc but you get what I mean).

I like high-ship-counts and I like good filler to go with my aces, so that probably colors my perspective significantly.

Just now, ClassicalMoser said:

Oh no, I know! When I discuss a chassis and its viability, I usually do so in terms of the generics. I treat named pilots as an entity of their own.

Just saying, that is extremely confusing for at least me, and probably others, because I can't know what standards someone uses when discussing all pilots at once.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Just saying, that is extremely confusing for at least me, and probably others, because I can't know what standards someone uses when discussing all pilots at once.

It was in the context of comparing the RZ-2 with the RZ-1. I clarified slightly with an edit in the above post. I didn't mean that the RZ-2 is fine in general, I meant more that in comparison to the RZ-1 it's not grossly underpriced and that my suggestion of a 1-point bump across the board was likely misplaced.

But I definitely get what you mean. We can't have all this Humpty-Dumptying of discussion terms in a vacuum: "Now, whenever I disuss the Decimator, I strictly mean Morna Kee, with a little bit of Oicunn. You should all know that" just isn't a reasonable expectation for discussions on a forum with a gazillion different active profiles.

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Maybe the RZ-1 still needs a slight drop, or maybe the price difference is okay now? 29 for a Phoenix isn't that bad.

29 Phoenix seems OK, but 32 Green seems high (particularly given 30 point Baron of the Empire TIE/v1), maybe also the named pilots. Arvel at +2 over Green, Jake at +4 over Green both seem right.

I kinda feel like 3 points might be about right for the difference between RZ-1 and RZ-2, if they're equal in terms of pilot ability strength. If Green, Arvel, and Jake all got -1 , I don't think that'd be unfair or excessive.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

No! Please, read again. I directly say "Probably Greer and Tallie, and definitely Zizi should go up. " The generics are fine, not the named pilots. Lulo got his deserved +5 (!) already. Zari might be ok as an i3. But the three mentioned are clearly just a bit too good.

Is Zari's pilot ability better or worse than Arvels? I kind of think it's not quite as good. As such, Zari at +1 over the Green (thus current price) seems fine.

Greer is +2 points over a Green RZ-2, which seems... yeah, probably a point too low, so +1 . Both her and Jake are Init 4 with a bonus action ability. I think Jake's text is perhaps a bit better, so Jake being +4 while Greer being +3 doesn't seem that wrong.

Tallie is all about the orange 5. She's always seemed excessively low. Sure, her pilot ability isn't amazing, but still. I don't think she should be cheaper than Greer anyhow, so +1 .

Zizi... yeah. That's a really strong pilot ability. Better than Jake, IMHO, since it doesn't depend on taking actions, and Zizi can take Optics. Is +2 too much? Too little?

23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Zizi... yeah. That's a really strong pilot ability. Better than Jake, IMHO, since it doesn't depend on taking actions, and Zizi can take Optics. Is +2 too much? Too little?

Let us look at another comparison. The blue squad lvl1 is 32, so Zizi for 4 higher Ini (being a 5), and always double action (with the choice of focus or evade) is 8 pts more.

Look at the TIE Int. Alpha Squad lvl 1 is 31, Turr Phennir is only 3 Ini higher (being a 4), with a very comparable ability, is 11pts more! There is no Ini 5, but the 6 is 22pts more.

54 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Look at the TIE Int. Alpha Squad lvl 1 is 31, Turr Phennir is only 3 Ini higher (being a 4), with a very comparable ability, is 11pts more! There is no Ini 5, but the 6 is 22pts more.

This is actually more or less correct. The Interceptors live or die by their positioning, and initiative is where 90% of that ability lives.

Maybe Turr needs a tiny drop, but Soontir must not go down and Alphas must not go up.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Zizi... yeah. That's a really strong pilot ability. Better than Jake, IMHO, since it doesn't depend on taking actions, and Zizi can take Optics. Is +2 too much? Too little?

I'd like to see Zizi +6 and then check back in a season and see if that's not still too cheap!

1 hour ago, svelok said:

I'd like to see Zizi +6 and then check back in a season and see if that's not still too cheap!

46 Zizi seems perhaps extreme to me at first glance. Is she really 3 points better than L'ulo? But then again... 46 halfway between Obi and Plo... Zizi's ability is kinda a force that comes in a bit late.

Yeah... the thought that Zizi only needs to go up 1 is kinda silly. I'd be more inclined to hasten slowly, give her the same 43 as L'ulo, or Seventh Sister, or a point less than Plo.

2 hours ago, Managarmr said:

Let us look at another comparison. The blue squad lvl1 is 32, so Zizi for 4 higher Ini (being a 5), and always double action (with the choice of focus or evade) is 8 pts more.

Look at the TIE Int. Alpha Squad lvl 1 is 31, Turr Phennir is only 3 Ini higher (being a 4), with a very comparable ability, is 11pts more! There is no Ini 5, but the 6 is 22pts more.

Turr Phenir is kinda absurdly priced, though. Should he +6 over a Saber at Init 4? I'm not sure that's right.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Turr Phenir is kinda absurdly priced, though. Should he +6 over a Saber at Init 4? I'm not sure that's right.

Even at +2 points over a saber, I think I'd only be running Turr if I had a spare point left over in list building.

I think we should wait and see if Zizi is actually effective at 40pts.

9 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

I think we should wait and see if Zizi is actually effective at 40pts.

*Insert Ryan Reynolds "But Why?" GIF*

I mean, obviously that's what the designers are doing. It's what we have to do in terms of an actual points change. But C'mon. Take Zizi's pilot text and slap it on an EPT card. You're telling me that isn't worth 5+ points on an I5 ship?

On 2/5/2020 at 1:59 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

I'll keep on playing them and see how it goes. I'll be practicing my hyperspace list some more tomorrow night.

What faction(s) do you fly in hyperspace? What have you liked so far?

22 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

*Insert Ryan Reynolds "But Why?" GIF*

I mean, obviously that's what the designers are doing. It's what we have to do in terms of an actual points change. But C'mon. Take Zizi's pilot text and slap it on an EPT card. You're telling me that isn't worth 5+ points on an I5 ship?

I don't disagree that Zizi feels a bit inexpensive because the ability is pretty awesome but I don't know that it is right to take a pilot's ability in a vacuum and try and add it to another pilot/different chassis and try to determine the cost of the pilot's ability.

Jake's ability is worth way more than the 2 points more expensive he is than Arvel. Gavin's ability is not worth the 8 points more expensive he is than the generic I4 E-Wings.

We would go crazy doing that.