Just played my very first Hyperspace-tournament after the points update...and what can I say? My god, this felt horrible!

I faced lists based on Advanced Optics all day long (2x Avenger + 4 Zetas, and 1x 5-A-Wings) and got beaten up really bad.

My own list included Fenn Rau, Dengar and 2 M3As with autoblasters....and neither Fenn nor Dengar stood any chance against continuous 2-Hits from Rear-Arcs all game long.

On my way back home I was thinking about the last time I ever had the feeling that I got overpowered by some archetype of list and realized it was way back during 1st edition of X-Wing:

Back when you faced something like this:

Lothal Rebel (35)
Accuracy Corrector (3)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Ezra Bridger (3)
Maul (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Ghost (0)

"Zeb" Orrelios (18)
Phantom (0)

Fenn Rau (Sheathipede) (20)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Hotshot Co-pilot (4)
Flight-Assist Astromech (1)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The principle was pretty much the same: You get 4 shots per round and pretty much have a guaranteed 2 hits on every attack. Just back then I had Autothrusters to compensate for this...

I consider this only to be a problem in current Hyperspace. Advanced Optics are around for some time now and in Extended-format there are multiple ways to deal with it. But since a lot of stuff got nerfed pretty bad in Hyperspace the powerlevel of Optics seems to be just way above everything else to me...

How do you think about this?

1 hour ago, KettchGER said:

Extended-format there are multiple ways to deal with it

such as?

Token-stripping (Seevor, Palob, Hotshot-Gunner)

Traktor (such like Quadjumpers)

really good offense to alpha-strike A-Wings before they get to do some harm (Wedge is good against A-Wings - I also totally miss Crackshot to push the one extra-damage through that might kill the first A-Wing or Zeta-TIE-S/F)

During the last couple of years I was always capable to find creative solutions against the most common meta-lista

- I've beaten Fenn/Ghost and Nymranda with Kylo, Countdown, Cpt. Yorr

- I've beaten Quad-Phantoms with Hera, Wedge and Norra

- I've enjoyed fighting Imperial Aces with Drone-Swarms or Han and Wedge.

- I even flew lists like Chewbacca and 4 Pods or Snapshot-Torani with great success

But right now, whenever I start the squad-builder and try to find a good list, I feel like I'm kind of trapped between 5 A-wings and other pure-efficiency-lists (the tournament on sunday was won by 7 M3As with autoblasters).

The easiest way to deal with this would be to just fly 5 A-Wings myself...

Be a Rebel. Five X-wing and go!! 😁

As a man currently flying Avenger+ 4 Zetas (with AO), I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree with the assertion that AO is overpowered.

The list is incredibly vulnerable to Boba-Fenn. Boba can plough into the formation, and short of incredibly poor defence dice, can laugh off the incoming fire. Fenn can leisurely keep his distance before plunging in as well, and is capable of doing horrible, horrible things to the SFs (especially if he outflanks them at range one).

I don't think it's even close to being the same level of oppressive.

For starters, they are still arc-locked ships rather than 360 turrets - with the A-Wings, said arc can only be pointed one way at a time, while the SFs do not have the level of mobility to always point at the desired target.

None of them move, reposition or fire at the highest initiative (often quite the opposite) and so can be dodged (perhaps not every arc at once but every shot denied is significant) and Initiative-killed.

Shooting them and forcing them to spend their focus token, or blocking them and preventing them getting it, immediately removes the efficiency behind their shots - in a lot of cases taking away that token is practically as good as doing damage, and should be seen as such. And again, the relatively low Initiative leaves them vulnerable to this before they have a chance to use it.

They don't have any of the same means of negatively impacting your shots at them like old Fenn or Hotshot CoPilot, nor do they have the ludicrous HP of the Ghost. The A-Wings won't take a lot of damage at once (it's near impossible to one-shot them) but still only have 4HP, and SF's only have two agility and no Heroic fallback if the dice fail. In each case, every ship lost reduces their firepower, unlike the Ghost which operated at full til it was dead.

Not all the ships are always going to have arc to the same target - co-ordinating that many different ships (often at different Initiative values in the case of the A-Wings) will rarely have all of them shooting the same thing.

The A-Wings in particular are often going to be stressed, making their movement options far more finite. The RZ-2 dial might be the best in the game, but if they are limited to blues then they can still be predicted and, crucially, you know where they can't go.

I've played against 5A's quite a few times, and though it can be frustrating it still always feels like an actual game, and that I have a chance. I played against old Ghost-Fenn once (possibly twice) and I never wanted to do so again, as it was the least fun I'd ever had in X-Wing.

So I was just on the receiving end of some really strong game of rock-paper-scissors this day?

@GreenDragoon

Since you are in "Team-A-Wings" whats your experience with the A-Wings when you're comparing playing Hyper and Extended?

4 minutes ago, KettchGER said:

Since you are in "Team-A-Wings" whats your experience with the A-Wings when you're comparing playing Hyper and Extended?

I agree that 5A is not fun in extended, but funnily enough not due to anything you mentioned, that might be just me though. Palob was horrible to deal with, but I haven't seen him in almost a year.
All the passive mod aces (imperial and jedi) just shrug off the 2dice attacks. All 3agility ships with something extra to modify are really hard to get through. And in turn, awings just plop to focused fire.

Scum has the strongest hyperspace pilot with Boba, who is coincidentally also the maybe strongest counter to 5A.

I agree in principle that Advanced Optics reminds me of 1.0, but the beauty is that the main carriers are 2dice attack ships, and uses the (often only) modifying action. That makes it just less of a problem for the game. It is really good on Kylo,but he's the only one so far.

3 hours ago, KettchGER said:

The principle was pretty much the same: You get 4 shots per round and pretty much have a guaranteed 2 hits on every attack. Just back then I had Autothrusters to compensate for this...

That's it. That's the feeling that 5A or 5SF with Optics gives, and I don't like it. On 5A, they can modify even double blanks with Heroic, making a blank focus roll literally the only bad roll. On 5SF, the once shields are down, Fanatical makes blank blank the only bad roll.

I only propose a mild modification in points, however, as passive mod pilots tend to shrug off multiple 2 die shots off. Raise the upgrade by 1 point. This makes the 5SF with AO and Fanatical need to make some subtractions to run and make 5A with AO and Heroic need to make some choices. To compesate for the SF's, I think Special Forces Gunner should drop by 2 points to make using it viable on more than just QD and LeHuse.

2 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

That's it. That's the feeling that 5A or 5SF with Optics gives, and I don't like it. On 5A, they can modify even double blanks with Heroic, making a blank focus roll literally the only bad roll. On 5SF, the once shields are down, Fanatical makes blank blank the only bad roll.

I only propose a mild modification in points, however, as passive mod pilots tend to shrug off multiple 2 die shots off. Raise the upgrade by 1 point. This makes the 5SF with AO and Fanatical need to make some subtractions to run and make 5A with AO and Heroic need to make some choices. To compesate for the SF's, I think Special Forces Gunner should drop by 2 points to make using it viable on more than just QD and LeHuse.

That would make the list unplayable. I understand that the lists, particularly 5A, can be very frustrating to play against.
But I really disagree with the comparison to GhostFenn, which was one of the vilest things X-wing ever saw, and 5A is not remotely close to that.

We'll see how well 5A will do in hyperspace, and whether BobaFenn and FO aces are too much for them or not. I'd just advocate for a bit less hyperbole.

I've been mad about the design (and pricing) of RZ2s since they came out. I don't think they belong in Hyperspace, I don't think they're fun to play against, and I don't think they should be priced for a monolist to be effective. I'm basically the person maddest about RZ2s that I know personally or online.

Even with them in, hyperspace is still the better format, and they're eminently beatable even if they are a power list.

If it felt like your opponent was getting 4+ modded shots on you every single round, then what was probably actually happening was your opponent was playing really well. That's what that feels like.

Avenger + Zetas isn't even a comparable list, the similarities are mostly superficial. It's true that Fenn doesn't love high time on target attackers but as a professional Mad About RZ2s Online Guy I can't just let the assertion that 5xRZ2 and Avenger+Zetas is the same archetype sneak past...

46 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That would make the list unplayable. I understand that the lists, particularly 5A, can be very frustrating to play against.
But I really disagree with the comparison to GhostFenn, which was one of the vilest things X-wing ever saw, and 5A is not remotely close to that.

We'll see how well 5A will do in hyperspace, and whether BobaFenn and FO aces are too much for them or not. I'd just advocate for a bit less hyperbole.

How would a 1 point uptick make it unplayable? 5A with Heroic and Optics can still fit in multiple variations even with the uptick. In fact, you can fit them with 3 named pilots. Why would this make them unplayable? Every A-Wing pilot is a viable pilot, whether unique or generic. Saying that it would make 5A unplayable seems a bit of hyperbole. At least more hyperbole than saying 5 AO shots feels like Quad TLT shots. The 4 TLT shots at least had a damage cap of 4, whereas a 5 shots at a 2 green die ship with focus should average around 4.5 damage (using range 2 as a base). Also, 5A can shoot at range 1, which TLT could not.

Admittedly, Boba + Maul seems the biggest problem, but he seems to be the biggest threat to everyone in Hyperspace, not just 5A. 2 die shots seem the saddest against him. As for Extended, Jedi and Inqs are a whole nother problem, but that speaks to the imbalance in the pricing of force rather than AOs cost.

10 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

How would a 1 point uptick make it unplayable? 5A with Heroic and Optics can still fit in multiple variations even with the uptick. In fact, you can fit them with 3 named pilots. Why would this make them unplayable? Every A-Wing pilot is a viable pilot, whether unique or generic. Saying that it would make 5A unplayable seems a bit of hyperbole.

5A virtually vanished from the meta, both hyperspace and extended. The two new pilots and the new format gave it some new life. If what you are saying were true and it was playable*, then we would have seen a 5A list with Lulo to go on and do reasonably well. He is just another 3 points over Zizi, after all, even cheaper than her when Zizi takes optics. But that never happened.

*playable means, of course, to be able to succeed in the meta. It was not, and has not been for a long time. Hyperspace and extended.

edit: and don't get me wrong, I think it's an entirely valid opinion wanting to cost 5A out of the game. also @svelok
Maybe they shouldn't exist, as other things, too. But I don't agree with Optics being the problem.

11 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

The 4 TLT shots at least had a damage cap of 4, whereas a 5 shots at a 2 green die ship with focus should average around 4.5 damage (using range 2 as a base). Also, 5A can shoot at range 1, which TLT could not.

Wait, wut? No.

You know I love you, @5050Saint , but no. You're making an assumption that focus is always available for offense. You're making an assumption all arcs are on the same target. Neither assumption is accurate.

5A is fine . It's good, it should be good, but it's not great and it's certainly not going to be dominant.

Is Advanced Optics the only upgrade in Hyperspace Format that provides a "passive" (not all that passive since you need a focus) upgrade. But FO and Resistance are the only factions that get access to blank result to a hit result dice mods aren't they?

That's the real issue here isn't it? The feel bad part? Advanced Optics can flat out negate a blank.

Broadside allows blank to Focus.

23 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

5A virtually vanished from the meta, both hyperspace and extended.

They vanished when Jedi appeared, and I fear that is the biggest problem with 5A. Jedi just outmatch them (and many others) in too many regards. I look forward to seeing A's do well in Hyperspace with Jedi tampered down a bit. Boba is still there, but otherwise, I think they are in a good spot.

13 minutes ago, gennataos said:

5A is fine . It's good, it should be good, but it's not great and it's certainly not going to be dominant.

5A is fine, it's Optics I have beef with. 5A can still run with Optics going up a point. If that isn't good enough, you and I both know they are decent options in Resistance for super cheap that can allow for 4A plus 1 other to make running 4 named A-wings with Heroic and Optics possible even if Optics went up a point.

4 hours ago, KettchGER said:

My own list included Fenn Rau, Dengar and 2 M3As with autoblasters....and neither Fenn nor Dengar stood any chance against continuous 2-Hits from Rear-Arcs all game long.

I feel like it's worth drawing a potential distinction between Advanced Optics as a problem, and these rear-arc ships as a problem. I suspect that if Optics got removed from Hyperspace, the ships which can use Optics wouldn't necessarily be that bad. TIE/sf can easily go Fanatical/Fire Control System. A-Wings don't have as many upgrade options, but they're still a great platform with a lot of great pilots.

However, if it's Optics on other ships... it's a solid upgrade, but probably not a problematic upgrade.

Granted, That's Juke's history in a nutshell. Way too strong on one specific ship (Phantom), playable on like one other ship (Defender, maybe Vermiel-Reaper), but still nerfed into oblivion because it was bantha fodder.

//

I feel like it's easy to forget that the upgrade was in 1e, and no one ever used it . I find that a really interesting history for Advanced Optics.

Weapons Guidance had the exact same text, at the exact same price (given the 100->200 switch), and it never really fit anywhere. Some of that is there weren't too many ships which could take it. Didn't fit in a quad T-70 list, didn't really make sense with mass TIE/fo (you could only outfit 5 out of 6, IIRC). Some is that there were a lot of other solid options. Why Weapons Guidance when Predator is 3 points? If you've got a TIE/sf or Resistance Bomber, why not just take Accuracy Corrector?

But once 2e rolls around, this upgrade suddenly becomes, well, the only option. Pretty much all competition is gone or is bullseye only. The only general purpose full-arc upgrade to increase damage is like... Outmaneuver? It just fascinates me, and I think it illustrates a lot of difference between 1e and 2e.

And turns out, mathematically speaking, Optics is about as good as Outmaneuver. Not quite, but almost. If anyone wants confirmation, they can play around with http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/ some, test 2 or 3 red dice with and without optics against various agility values. There are too many cases to type them all in, but it does work out fairly close to the same. The requirements are a bit different: specific action, and it must be used offensively. Outmaneuver works off of any action or none, but is positional.

There's another point of similarity: both Outmaneuver and Optics suggest a course of action to an opponent. Keep me in arc to shut down Outmaneuver. Attack me to shut down Optics. Something like a humble 46 point Optics Blue Rookie T-70 can either punch up, or be attacked while the least important member of your squad. Trying to rely on tricks like that isn't really a good gameplan, but Optics serves as a way for an ignored ship to meaningfully increase it's damage output, and that's good in filler.

//

I also want to challenge the orthodoxy that Optics is only for 2-red ships. 3-red dice with Optics get a pretty sizeable boost. Expected hits are 2.547 compared to 2.25. Doesn't look like much, but it's the difference between a 78% chance to kill a B-Wing in 4 shots, compared to a 52% chance. 57% chance to kill a Vulture with lots of calculate buddies in 2 shots, compared to 40% with just plain red dice. It's not automatically going to win you anything.

To be sure, Optics hasn't been common on 3-red ships so far, but with the buffs FFG has kept putting onto generic T-70s, with the Red Vet down to a mere 44 points... I think Optics on a 3-red is something getting slept on. Going to win everything automatically? No, it's still a front-arc ship. But it does meaningfully up the odds.

//

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

[Increasing the price of Advanced Optics to 5] would make the list unplayable. I understand that the lists, particularly 5A, can be very frustrating to play against.
But I really disagree with the comparison to GhostFenn, which was one of the vilest things X-wing ever saw, and 5A is not remotely close to that.

We'll see how well 5A will do in hyperspace, and whether BobaFenn and FO aces are too much for them or not. I'd just advocate for a bit less hyperbole.

One thing which really strikes me about 5A is that, despite being a rather good list, it really rests on a knifes edge of being a pretty bad list.

1 minute ago, 5050Saint said:

5A is fine, it's Optics I have beef with. 5A can still run with Optics going up a point. If that isn't good enough, you and I both know they are decent options in Resistance for super cheap that can allow for 4A plus 1 other to make running 4 named A-wings with Heroic and Optics possible.

I don't see why. Optics is also fine. If they're higher init, they have to choose to leave themselves open for incoming shots. If they're lower init and they were getting shot, they probably already spent it on defense and have a really weak shot.

If people want to point to Zizi as a "too cheap" problem, then, yeah, I can get onboard with that (while I exploit it for the next 5 months+).

3 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Is Advanced Optics the only upgrade in Hyperspace Format that provides a "passive" (not all that passive since you need a focus) upgrade.

Not at all.

3 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

But FO and Resistance are the only factions that get access to blank result to a hit result dice mods aren't they?

Not really, in two ways:

1) There is no reason to arbitrarily limit to direct changes. There are plenty ways to reroll blanks, again Boba being one of the most important offenders. Every free lock (Dutch, Lando, Oddball...), FCS, Braylen/Horton, Wolffe/Matchstick, Chertek/Precise Hunter, and other reroll effects allow you to get reliable offense. Not always but usually on 3 dice, which is an important detail. I didn't add Rey, LeHuse or Rivas as they are Resistance/FO.

2) There is fearless. Again on or together with Boba. Then there are ruthless or Tina (again, FO).

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

One thing which really strikes me about 5A is that, despite being a rather good list, it really rests on a knifes edge of being a pretty bad list.

Yeah, it's a weird one in many ways.
I think the frustrating part is that most lists feel they have a hard time. What actually happens though is that they just don't have a good matchup. Almost nobody does. What they don't see until playing it themselves is that they also don't have a bad matchup. Again, almost nobody does.
The same is true for 5A, of course, in the opposite direction, as nothing is really bad - but also not really good.

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Not at all.

Not really, in two ways:

1) There is no reason to arbitrarily limit to direct changes. There are plenty ways to reroll blanks, again Boba being one of the most important offenders. Every free lock (Dutch, Lando, Oddball...), FCS, Braylen/Horton, Wolffe/Matchstick, Chertek/Precise Hunter, and other reroll effects allow you to get reliable offense. Not always but usually on 3 dice, which is an important detail. I didn't add Rey, LeHuse or Rivas as they are Resistance/FO.

2) There is fearless. Again on or together with Boba. Then there are ruthless or Tina (again, FO).

Rerolls are not blanks to hits.

I'm saying the NPE here is the blank to a hit. That was the issue with some of the worst 1.0 stuff. There were all sorts of things where the dice results didn't matter. All of the Resistance and FO ships have access to Advanced Optics except the Scavenged YT and thus access to blank to hit without particularly fancy flying.

Fearless is access to blank to hit but at something different cost wise than taking a focus action. Even with a "free" reroll you still got to get paint. Jedi get passive mods but they still need to see paint on their dice. And both Hyperspace Oddball pay a higher cost for the stress they need to take than Resistance A-wings because of the difference in the amount of Blue on the dials.

I suspect overall the math checks out. I do not think Advanced Optics is particularly broken. But players don't like it when their dice rolls matter and their opponent's rolls don't. That's the part that feels like 1st Ed. TLT Ghost.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But once 2e rolls around, this upgrade suddenly becomes, well, the only option.

This is a bit of my beef with Optics. Ferrosphere Paint seems like an interesting upgrade, but will never be taken on any ship with Tech if it cost more than Optics. I'd wager that Optics would still be the choice even if they costed the same, and maybe still if Ferropaint was a point cheaper than Optics. Targeting Sync will never be taken at 6 points. A-wings have no need for Primed Thrusters, and with their maneuverability, they should never need Pattern Analyzer.

It is literally a choice between Optics and Ferropaint, and that isn't even a choice. Nearly the same goes for the SFs, except they don't have Ferropaint, and a case can be made for PA.

Just played 5A yesterday at a tournament, actually. I lost, but I don't think it was a list thing at all. I firmly believe I made too many mistakes in the game.

Advanced optics isn't even a discussion on anything other than the RZ2s, so if anything the RZ2s may be priced inadequately. 5 TIE/SFs use advanced optics, but seem to be used as a list significantly less than 5As and pretty much get ignored in the conversation. Is it because they are easier to hit? People feel like the match is more fair if they are dealing damage. 5A, flown well, has a dial strong enough to disappear and rotate out damaged ships, and enough dice variance on three green to sometimes (rarely, but enough to generate feels) just nope out of all damage.

@GreenDragoon - Focus fire does indeed kill A-wings fast. What are you doing in that box, man?

12 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

This is a bit of my beef with Optics. Ferrosphere Paint seems like an interesting upgrade, but will never be taken on any ship with Tech if it cost more than Optics. I'd wager that Optics would still be the choice even if they costed the same, and maybe still if Ferropaint was a point cheaper than Optics. Targeting Sync will never be taken at 6 points. A-wings have no need for Primed Thrusters, and with their maneuverability, they should never need Pattern Analyzer.

It is literally a choice between Optics and Ferropaint, and that isn't even a choice. Nearly the same goes for the SFs, except they don't have Ferropaint, and a case can be made for PA.

The agency in whether or not you get anything from the Paint is not in your hands. Ships that don't care about stress don't mind it. Ships carrying Optics mostly don't mind the stress and want to focus anyway.

1 minute ago, Frimmel said:

The agency in whether or not you get anything from the Paint is not in your hands. Ships that don't care about stress don't mind it. Ships carrying Optics mostly don't mind the stress and want to focus anyway.

Which is why we never see Ferrosphere paint. It needs to be cheaper. Droids don't care about it, and most every body else is fine with focusing. Punishing Jendon, Vader, Passive Phantoms, and forgetful Jedi seems decent for 3 points, but terrible at 5.

58 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Then there are ruthless or Tina (again, FO).

Is Tina TN-3465?