First, the stats. Factions that have the coordinate action (on the ship action bar).

Rebel = 2 (1 white, 1 red)

Empire = 3 (1 white, 2 red)

Scum = 1 (red)

The other 4 are new and/or lacking ships enough that it isn’t a big issue at the moment (ie there is time to have new ships come in with the action). So I wont focus on those.

Both the Rebel and Empire have what I would say are decent, useful ships with the coordinate action on them (that is, they are useful in their own right, even if you don’t use the coordinate action). Those that have the Red version (Reaper/Decimator) have 2 crew slots (so they can put tac officer to make it white if they wanted, while still have a slot for a crew). This even includes the Resistance Transport.

Basically, what im saying is, from a utility, movement, and stats perspective, the Only coordinate option for Scum… well, is rather garbage. The Escape craft is weak (4 hits), maneuver dial is poor, and has very limited upgrade option (1 crew, which is pretty much reserved for the Tac officer if you are wanting to coordinate) and a mod slot (and a talent for those qualified). The abilities of the pilots are clearly meant to support the mothership (yt-1300) rather than be decent ability’s for the craft itself, but even then when its docked you cannot use the coordinate action (like you can with the VCX-100). So they are not really useful in their own right. Its 2 main shining features require 2 upgrade cards to be useful.

1. Landos Falcon (ie its docked with it to give it 2 more shields.

2. Tactical Officer (so it doesn’t get stressed each time it coordinates)

Outside of those two, by itself, there is little to no reason to fly this ship, and the 2nd option is hindered by its poor space frame (when compared to other coordinate ships).

Now this isn’t a ‘woe is scum’ kind of post. I kind of get that the Scum aren’t typically a coordinating bunch, but I think in this case, balancing the game should take a tiny bit of precedence over faction accuracy. Bottom line, it would be nice if there was a halfway decent ship with a coordinate action on it. (I actually think the one on the escape should be white, while a more useful ship frame would be red, to put it in line with the other two major faction).

Just a thought.

5 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

First, the stats. Factions that have the coordinate action (on the ship action bar).

Rebel = 2 (1 white, 1 red)

Empire = 3 (1 white, 2 red)

Scum = 1 (red)

The other 4 are new and/or lacking ships enough that it isn’t a big issue at the moment (ie there is time to have new ships come in with the action). So I wont focus on those.

Both the Rebel and Empire have what I would say are decent, useful ships with the coordinate action on them (that is, they are useful in their own right, even if you don’t use the coordinate action). Those that have the Red version (Reaper/Decimator) have 2 crew slots (so they can put tac officer to make it white if they wanted, while still have a slot for a crew). This even includes the Resistance Transport.

Basically, what im saying is, from a utility, movement, and stats perspective, the Only coordinate option for Scum… well, is rather garbage. The Escape craft is weak (4 hits), maneuver dial is poor, and has very limited upgrade option (1 crew, which is pretty much reserved for the Tac officer if you are wanting to coordinate) and a mod slot (and a talent for those qualified). The abilities of the pilots are clearly meant to support the mothership (yt-1300) rather than be decent ability’s for the craft itself, but even then when its docked you cannot use the coordinate action (like you can with the VCX-100). So they are not really useful in their own right. Its 2 main shining features require 2 upgrade cards to be useful.

1. Landos Falcon (ie its docked with it to give it 2 more shields.

2. Tactical Officer (so it doesn’t get stressed each time it coordinates)

Outside of those two, by itself, there is little to no reason to fly this ship, and the 2nd option is hindered by its poor space frame (when compared to other coordinate ships).

Now this isn’t a ‘woe is scum’ kind of post. I kind of get that the Scum aren’t typically a coordinating bunch, but I think in this case, balancing the game should take a tiny bit of precedence over faction accuracy. Bottom line, it would be nice if there was a halfway decent ship with a coordinate action on it. (I actually think the one on the escape should be white, while a more useful ship frame would be red, to put it in line with the other two major faction).

Just a thought.

The Escape craft is also the same price as some of the cheapest ships in other factions (or technically the cheapest if you only need 3 turns). It being fairly bad is fine for the price.

54 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

balancing the game should take a tiny bit of precedence over faction accuracy

Does Scum need a medium/heavy-weight coordinate platform for the game to be balanced?

I still haven't properly used a Squad Ldr Mining TIE. I'm pretty sure every time I mention it, the response is generally 'meh'. But a 3ag, rock hopping coord for 29pt seems alright.

The nose is bad, but does a thing.

Mostly I think it just feels like a faction thing. Scum list building is weird and there doesn't seem to be a great deal of worth in genuine tactical support ships. Possibly because there just aren't any that carry weight, but also, I'm not convinced I could build that well with one, if there was. Not many of the pieces we have are crying out for it.

Tbh, I prefer the web of interlocking b*st**d's that seems to be the faction theme anyway. Spending 50-60pt on a support ship pushes out too much of the fun offensive stuff.

This is the way.

But. MGT still intrigues me. As a boost to someone like Assaj maybe. Kath....

Perhaps, down the line, the Razor Crest will come with something that fills a different role.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

Does Scum need a medium/heavy-weight coordinate platform for the game to be balanced?

No. But that doesn't mean we can't have more new toys.

Might not fit any list I like, but I'd still buy it and stare at it.

15 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I still haven't properly used a Squad Ldr Mining TIE. I'm pretty sure every time I mention it, the response is generally 'meh'. But a 3ag, rock hopping coord for 29pt seems alright.

The nose is bad, but does a thing.

Mostly I think it just feels like a faction thing. Scum list building is weird and there doesn't seem to be a great deal of worth in genuine tactical support ships. Possibly because there just aren't any that carry weight, but also, I'm not convinced I could build that well with one, if there was. Not many of the pieces we have are crying out for it.

Tbh, I prefer the web of interlocking b*st**d's that seems to be the faction theme anyway. Spending 50-60pt on a support ship pushes out too much of the fun offensive stuff.

This is the way.

But. MGT still intrigues me. As a boost to someone like Assaj maybe. Kath....

Perhaps, down the line, the Razor Crest will come with something that fills a different role.

The "meh" is from a SLSurveyor being limited to red coordinating Focus, Roll or Evade only.

Thematically scum are bad at working together, with a few exceptions like the syndicates or antihero types.

the unconventional ways to support eachother help define the faction. things like Manaroo, Serissu, and Overseer Yushin are good but not auto includes, so they dont turn scum into a rebel faction clone.

I'd like to see 1.0s "Bodyguard" ept come back, and something like Captain Rexs "covering fire" ability would be great.

unfortunately "Deplete" and "strain" kinda makes me think the game isnt going that way

Personally, I've had a good time running Palob with Squad Leader + Tac Officer in some lists. Loaded up with goodies he is a decent ship of his own and worth the 1/3-ish of the list he takes up, but not good enough to justify those 14pts if I'm not making good use of coordinate.

@Cuz05 might be on to something with a 29pt MGT squad leader.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

Spending 50-60pt on a support ship pushes out too much of the fun offensive stuff.

Well there's your problem! You could be spending 50-60pt on *2* support ships! L3-37 + Outer Rim Pioneer or Lando (Shuttle) or Squad Leader Surveyor is 54-55 pts and you'd still have ~145 points to for the offensive stuff. Of course 2 coordinates might be a little overkill, but I think some lists could make it work.

I've flown L3+ORP alongside 6 MGTs with every ship taking Crack Shot, and I wasn't disappointed. It's possible 8 Crack Shot Black Sun Soldiers are a better list, but I can't field that many Zs and the ability to fly over rocks freely and get actions to the MGTs that needed them at crucial moments was quite valuable. SLS over ORP though looks really tempting, ORP gave me headaches sometimes with making activations difficult for the MGTs while SLS can provide the same coordinate abilities on a better platform and is I2 for easier movement for the rest of the squad.

L3+ORP/Lando+3x Skull Squadron Pilots is something else that looks quite interesting. Linked Boost/Barrel Roll + Focus into a blue maneuver can give a ship 3 actions and no stress. L3+ORP also works with Black Sun Assassins, and I think a well flown Fenn + Guri with double coordinate support has the potential to be very nasty. Especially with Daredevil. 1 hard turn pre-maneuver boost into blue maneuver into barrel roll linked into focus anyone?

(thread title) Is a good thing.

There, fixed it 😁

Let’s make sure every faction is the same, so it’s fair.

But... having equal access the the exact same tools completely invalidates the concept of having separate factions with their own benefits, detriments and available equipment...

If they all had the exact same functions, what's the point in having factions?

For example - factions that have a natural blue speed 3 bank available to them:

Empire - 0

Rebel - 0

Scum - 2.5 (Jumpmaster only has it blue in one direction)

FO - 0

Resistance - 1

Republic - 1

CIS - 1

Arguably, interceptor class ships like the RZ-1, Tie Interceptor, Tie Defender, and Tie/Ba should probably have a blue speed 3 bank and lose some of the low speed blue moves they have.... but that's not my point right now.

TL;DR My point is that each faction has some things the others don't, and lack some things the others have. That is a good thing.

The only time I bemoan the lack of effective coordinating in Scum is when its used particularly effectively against me. When I don't see how very, very good it can when supported by some of the more ridiculous crew/pilot abilities available to other factions, I don't miss it at all. But when Lando and Leia and Jendon and so on get out there and start their shenanigans - and then get to coordinate on top of all that - then I get a bit bitter. But really, it ain't coordinate that's really lacking. It just highlights one of Scum's main deficiencies - synergy. Scum has some solid Aces (Fett, Fenn, Guri) and there are folks out there who are rabidly opposed to the idea that those pilots should even exist - while they in the meantime fly Aces which are just as or nearly as effective, but which are supported by some outrageously good crew/pilots/AND easy coordinate. So. What was I saying? Right. Scum's lack of coordinate is only problem in that they don't really have anything to compensate for its lack. Not really. Or so it feels.

Actually, here's a thought. Is there actually anything in Scum that balances their almost total lack of synergistic effects, which is not already balanced against the same effects/properties already in other factions? Are Scum Aces, for example, balanced solely against other Aces, or are Scum Ace points assigned taking into account their lack of support relative to other factions?

So this is the Scum faction we're talking about, yes?

And you think a bunch of bounty hunters and criminals are needing some military precision and coordination?

Weird.

Um, and Boba and Fenn don't really care... at all really.

On 2/2/2020 at 11:09 PM, Hiemfire said:

The "meh" is from a SLSurveyor being limited to red coordinating Focus, Roll or Evade only.

I don't find the SL limitation a particularly big deal tbh. Not on a cheap low Init platform. Focus as the bonus action is always useful. But I do get the "meh".

General responses to other posts. Scum aces are quite happy without a coord imo. Other factions that use a chunky boat to help out tend to be making up for dial/action/green dice inefficiencies. Few of our basic fighter builds suffer from that.

Venturing outside of the basics, what we have that makes up for a general lack of command carriers, is a plethora of hefty spanners to throw in the works. Scum control is a little bit on the back foot atm, for the simple reason that it only takes a tiny nudge to send it right past OK and into ohmygodnopleasestop.

I have a feeling that if there was a Scum Reaper/U-Boat, it might be a Pandora's box type deal.

Making the most of the tools we have, on the toolbox side of things, is a genuine art. I like it like this.

I also have a bit of a thing about the no-synergy aspect of Scum. Cause I think there's plenty. It's just not necessarily direct.

2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I don't find the SL limitation a particularly big deal tbh. Not on a cheap low Init platform. Focus as the bonus action is always useful. But I do get the "meh".

General responses to other posts. Scum aces are quite happy without a coord imo. Other factions that use a chunky boat to help out tend to be making up for dial/action/green dice inefficiencies. Few of our basic fighter builds suffer from that.

Venturing outside of the basics, what we have that makes up for a general lack of command carriers, is a plethora of hefty spanners to throw in the works. Scum control is a little bit on the back foot atm, for the simple reason that it only takes a tiny nudge to send it right past OK and into ohmygodnopleasestop.

I have a feeling that if there was a Scum Reaper/U-Boat, it might be a Pandora's box type deal.

Making the most of the tools we have, on the toolbox side of things, is a genuine art. I like it like this.

I also have a bit of a thing about the no-synergy aspect of Scum. Cause I think there's plenty. It's just not necessarily direct.

I mean, in general you're not wrong. But I think you're slightly overoptimistic. I don't see Scum dials being better than, oh, any other factions. For example. The best argument that has been made in the past is "different but more or less equal." I'm almost prepared to accept that. And for easy control, can we talk about Sloane? Or Death Troopers? Vader? 7th Sister? Thannisson? Phasma? For example. We already have a decently solid crew carrier or two, but even they haven't been able to gift us any "broken" crew combos. So a Scum Reaper? I don't even know what that means. We only have a couple of direct buff pilots - Drea and Serisuu being the big ones - but they tend to have some pretty significant caveats to using their abilities. Versus, say, Howlrunner, Lando, Darklighter, Ors, etc. etc.

I'm not trying to say that Scum is in a bad spot. I'm not arguing that Scum is worthless, or needs to mirror every other faction's strengths. I'm not saying that Scum is completely without synergies. My position is that there is nothing Scum can do that another faction (or two or three) can't do cheaper and better. Scum does not have a faction strength. We have a few pilots who can make up for that deficiency, yes. But is that enough?

This is why I try not to get involved in this kind of discussion, because in the end it's so subjective. Under any other circumstances, I would delete this post right now rather than continuing. But it's early, and I'm still sleepy, and.... Publish and be damned. And I will keep flying Scum, despite its weaknesses. But there are rarely any games where I don't feel that I'm starting on the back foot. Whereas I drop a droid swarm? Or Rebel Beef? I feel pretty **** good about my odds.

Cheers, my Scum Brothers.

2 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

I mean, in general you're not wrong. But I think you're slightly overoptimistic.

This is why I try not to get involved in this kind of discussion, because in the end it's so subjective.

Fair and fair. The former is my Achilles heel. The latter is why I'm not going to disagree with anything. Your points are sound.

I will say that yes, you can compare across factions and find multiple variations of different but the same and also easier and maybe cheaper.

But I think Scum have a lot more overlapping, leftfield options, covering more bases. You can bring a twist to anything another faction can do with the combo choices Scum have and potentially create control/kill monsters that will take all comers, if given a little shove .

I think that's why these kind of lists always feel slightly on the back foot. The fear of another Four Horseman emerging is real. It's a matter of opinion as to whether Scum should even be allowed to compete at the top with this kind of thing.

I don't know either way, I'm kinda just supposing stuff

Scum seem to be on the up right now though. We don't have coord boats, but we do have Fangs.

i see scum as a jack of all trades master of none faction. more options than the other factions but nothing that elevates it to the top of the pile. tractoring might have done that and was threatening to with Ketsu sehanigans FFG have nerfed them just enough to make it good but not potent. I dont like it but i agree with it.

its interesting what has happned with the Hawk-290. its gone from a powerhouse to a slightly too expensive support ship since its release. Torkil Mux is still going to worm his way into some squads because scums 3 dice generics are effieciet enough K-Fighters and Zealots/Skulls come to mind... hmm i winder of generic kimo-pilots might work with him... as they did with drea when she was cheap. Anyway back the Hawk... its title is pricey and FFG are rather reluctant to buff it again because rebels get to use it and benefit fromany buffs. Some argument here for collateral damage hurting both factions... FFG "No buff for the Hawk this time... its going to put rebels over the top/its going to put scum over the top" i guess the only way to go here would be to create new pilots for the Hawk. Yes please but the cue for new pilots is long and scum is waaay down the line thanks to it having so many ships/pilots avaialable compared to the newer factions.