@Managarmr & @Singulativ , I challenge you to write up a way to still trigger aftermath effects (after attacking) that still refer to the defender & attacker (which you cannot do once the aftermath step is done, by the way), but also not still being part of an attack steps, and have it make complete and undeniable sense.

Common sense & logic *has* to have some ground here. You cannot be both during an attack, and trigger 'after attacking' abilities at the same time. By your "logic", after attacking abilities can *never* trigger because as soon as the attack is over, you are past the aftermath step.

So, Dengar's ability never triggers because hes still defending during the aftermath step. Kylo cant never trigger because "whos the attacker now that were out of the attack? I dont know, the attack is over so nobody is the attacker or defender"

That is the problem with saying the Aftermath step is still 'during the attack'.

14 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

Yaeh, the rules say that things supposed to happen after an attack happen during the attack.

Where exactly in the rules does it say this, word for word?

@Lyianx Those abilities are triggered during the attack, they would still be processed during the aftermath step if it was moved to a sub-step of engaging instead of being nested in the attack itself as it is currently.

7 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

@Managarmr & @Singulativ , I challenge you to write up a way to still trigger aftermath effects (after attacking) that still refer to the defender & attacker (which you cannot do once the aftermath step is done, by the way), but also not still being part of an attack steps, and have it make complete and undeniable sense.

I think you already quoted better worded cards which trigger during an attack when attacker and defender are defined and resolve after the attack.

Challenged accepted:

Stabilised S-Foils: At the end of an Attack you perform , you may spend your Lock on the defender to perform a Bonus Cannon Attack against that ship using a Cannon Upgrade you have not attacked with this turn.

2 hours ago, Managarmr said:

6. Aftermath: Abilities that trigger after an attack are resolved in the following order...

emphasis mine

It's not as clear-cut as you think.

39 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

So, Dengar's ability never triggers because hes still defending during the aftermath step.

Not a problem at all, read the rules reference:

"BONUS ATTACK If a card instructs a ship to perform a bonus attack, it performs an additional attack during the Aftermath step."

"ATTACK
Ships can perform attacks which thematically represents the ship firing its
blaster cannons, ordnance, or other weapons.
If a ship performs an attack, it becomes the attacker then follows these steps:(...)

6. Aftermath: Abilities that trigger after an attack are resolved in the following order (...)

c. Resolve any of the defending player’s abilities that trigger after a ship
defends or is destroyed that grant a bonus attack."

Then comes 6d.

47 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Kylo cant never trigger because "whos the attacker now that were out of the attack? I dont know, the attack is over so nobody is the attacker or defender"

Not a problem at all, read the rules reference.

"ATTACK
Ships can perform attacks which thematically represents the ship firing its
blaster cannons, ordnance, or other weapons.
If a ship performs an attack, it becomes the attacker then follows these steps :

(...)

6. Aftermath: Abilities that trigger after an attack are resolved in the following order.

a. Resolve any of the defending player’s abilities that trigger after a ship
defends or is destroyed, excluding abilities that grant a bonus attack."

In both cases the original attack is finished first after checking for 6d, the additional effects happens within aftermath. Same logic as ability queue, steps get staggered into each other.

55 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Where exactly in the rules does it say this, word for word?

I just did exactly that in my last post. Please read again.

THE QUESTION: I'd just like clarification in the attack steps on four terms, and what duration those terms last through.

1. When does a ship become an Attacker?
   1. In the Rules, a ship becomes the attacker as soon as it declares an attack.
   2. There is no clear definition when it ceases to be an attacker. My interpretation is that a ship stops being an attacker at the end of Step 6.
2. When is a ship Attacking?
   1. While undefined, it seems clear that a ship begins attacking as soon as it declares an attack.
   2. There is no clear definition when it ceases to be attacking. My interpretation is that a ship stops attacking at the end of Step 5.
3. When does a ship become a Defender?
   1. A ship is defined as becoming a defender in Attack Step 1c, the "declare defender step."
   2. There is no clear definition when it ceases to be a defender. My interpretation is that a ship stops being a defender at the end of Step 6.
4. When is a ship Defending?
   1. While undefined, it seems clear that a ship begins defending as soon as it becomes the target of an attack (step 1c).
   2. There is no clear definition when it ceases to be defending. My interpretation is that a ship stops defending at the end of Step 5.

MY OPINION: I think the clearest explanation that FFG could make (that has not happened as of me typing this post), is that an attack lasts through the end of Step 5 , and that any effects related to attacking or defending must take place within those confines. The entirety of Step 6: Aftermath takes place AFTER the attack is already concluded. On the other hand, the term attacker and defender last through the end of Step 6, as certain effects refer to those roles after the attack itself is completed.

Just my two cents.

2 hours ago, Managarmr said:

I just did exactly that in my last post. Please read again.

Um. no. I'm looking for this wording.

Quote

Yaeh, the rules say that things supposed to happen after an attack happen during the attack.

4 hours ago, Managarmr said:

"If a card instructs a ship to perform a bonus attack, it performs an additional attack during the Aftermath step."

Your quote says aftermath step, not attack. I said im looking for, word for word "during the attack". Find me that exact wording in the rules please, because I cannot seem to find it. The entire debate here is if the Aftermath step is also considered "while you attack". Pointing to the aftermath step accomplishes nothing. IF we’re going to get hung up on every little word, then I want to see those words printed verbatim. Right now you are just interpreting the Aftermath step as being ‘during the attack’.

Bottom line here is this. You want FFG to print, in the rules reference, that “aftermath is or isn’t also ‘during the attack’”. And that’s all well and good. However until that happens, we have to rely on other sources, one of the most major ones being from an FFG devs own mouth clearly stating that combo works, which very heavily suggests that the Aftermath step is, in fact, NOT ‘during the attack’. That isn’t community guesswork, that’s from FFG directly. You are basically saying FFG devs are wrong with the game they designed. Right now, what I (and others) are saying is, evidence is leaning heavily that aftermath step is not ‘during the attack’. Given what we know. However, if FFG turns up later, with an FAQ ruling, or a change in the attack procedure or whatever, that FCS shouldn’t work like that, I have no issue with that either. I'm strictly going off what I know from the rules, and what was directly said by FFG (with two others present who did not interject when he stated that, by the way).

In any case, its not currently Hyperspace legal, so there shouldn’t be huge debates at the tables over it (at official events anyway). So they have time to mull over it

11 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

In any case, its not currently Hyperspace legal, so there shouldn’t be huge debates at the tables over it (at official events anyway). So they have time to mull over it

Not sure what you're referring to, but B-Wing S-Foils (the top level discussion) are absolutely Hyperspace legal, as is Dengar, as is Kylo Ren... so yeah, we kind of need to know how to deal with it.

The obvious answer is, lacking an explicit official definition, talk to the TO before any event, and find out how things will be ruled before getting blindsided by an unexpected ruling. This also brings the matter to the attention of those TOs, who can subsequently be better prepared for unusual rules circumstances like these.

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

THE QUESTION: I'd just like clarification in the attack steps on four terms, and what duration those terms last through.

1. When does a ship become an Attacker?
   1. In the Rules, a ship becomes the attacker as soon as it declares an attack.
   2. There is no clear definition when it ceases to be an attacker. My interpretation is that a ship stops being an attacker at the end of Step 6.
2. When is a ship Attacking?
   1. While undefined, it seems clear that a ship begins attacking as soon as it declares an attack.
   2. There is no clear definition when it ceases to be attacking. My interpretation is that a ship stops attacking at the end of Step 5.
3. When does a ship become a Defender?
   1. A ship is defined as becoming a defender in Attack Step 1c, the "declare defender step."
   2. There is no clear definition when it ceases to be a defender. My interpretation is that a ship stops being a defender at the end of Step 6.
4. When is a ship Defending?
   1. While undefined, it seems clear that a ship begins defending as soon as it becomes the target of an attack (step 1c).
   2. There is no clear definition when it ceases to be defending. My interpretation is that a ship stops defending at the end of Step 5.

MY OPINION: I think the clearest explanation that FFG could make (that has not happened as of me typing this post), is that an attack lasts through the end of Step 5 , and that any effects related to attacking or defending must take place within those confines. The entirety of Step 6: Aftermath takes place AFTER the attack is already concluded. On the other hand, the term attacker and defender last through the end of Step 6, as certain effects refer to those roles after the attack itself is completed.

Just my two cents.

^ well stated!

40 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Not sure what you're referring to, but B-Wing S-Foils (the top level discussion) are absolutely Hyperspace legal, as is Dengar, as is Kylo Ren... so yeah, we kind of need to know how to deal with it.

haha, sorry. I was looking at the Wiki for Fire-Control system. My mistake. Should have realized that was out of date.

4 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Um. no. I'm looking for this wording.

Your quote says aftermath step, not attack. I said im looking for, word for word "during the attack". Find me that exact wording in the rules please, because I cannot seem to find it. The entire debate here is if the Aftermath step is also considered "while you attack". Pointing to the aftermath step accomplishes nothing. IF we’re going to get hung up on every little word, then I want to see those words printed verbatim. Right now you are just interpreting the Aftermath step as being ‘during the attack".

Find me the exact unambigous printed wording that aftermath is separate from attack. Because then there would have been something like: Attack is steps 1-5 and after attack there is then aftermath. There is no clear separation, and attack is defined as following (6) steps, no formatting difference either.

4 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Bottom line here is this. You want FFG to print, in the rules reference, that “aftermath is or isn’t also ‘during the attack’”

Yes, at least in regard to interactions like this.

4 hours ago, Lyianx said:

However until that happens, we have to rely on other sources, one of the most major ones being from an FFG devs own mouth clearly stating that combo works, which very heavily suggests that the Aftermath step is, in fact, NOT ‘during the attack’. That isn’t community guesswork, that’s from FFG directly. You are basically saying FFG devs are wrong with the game they designed.

Unfortunately they seem to do not want to or cannot spend the money for a technical writer. And do not always clear cut format either. So we end up with sloppy rules again and again.

You have been around since early 2015, according to your profile. I do not know if you were into x-wing then, but unfortunately FFG Devs have answered wrong in their e-post in 1st edition - remember that?

Apart from that we had recently wrong dials in 100 dollar(!) products, backwards Bellbullabs, garbled sentences in the rules reference, point cost in the pdf for things which look like having been cut out, still the point cost is there (Coaxium injectors Cargo) etc. Stringency and Quality control is abysmal as of lately

You cannot point to a video as a rules reference. Written rules are the sole reference. You cannot pull out a video comment in a tourney.

[As an analogue, Proach and Yushin were actually clearly designed and stated as working together, (whereas FCS and foils are designed independently) unfortunately RAW did not allow it, though people brought the same argument you bring here "FFG comments suggests you have to read the rules this way, there is an intersection in cost processing".]

Suggests is unfortunately not enough.

So yes, I want a clarification. And, yes, until then I find the UK tourney interpretation a valid interpretation as well. So I guess we can only agree on that we disagree Best the respective TOs state beforehand which way they interpret.

And when the FFG clarification comes, I will follow it.

13 hours ago, Lyianx said:

@Managarmr & @Singulativ , I challenge you to write up a way to still trigger aftermath effects (after attacking) that still refer to the defender & attacker (which you cannot do once the aftermath step is done, by the way), but also not still being part of an attack steps, and have it make complete and undeniable sense.

Common sense & logic *has* to have some ground here. You cannot be both during an attack, and trigger 'after attacking' abilities at the same time. By your "logic", after attacking abilities can *never* trigger because as soon as the attack is over, you are past the aftermath step.

So, Dengar's ability never triggers because hes still defending during the aftermath step. Kylo cant never trigger because "whos the attacker now that were out of the attack? I dont know, the attack is over so nobody is the attacker or defender"

That is the problem with saying the Aftermath step is still 'during the attack'.

Where exactly in the rules does it say this, word for word?

Related to this.

Is "after you defend" the same as "when you stop being the defender" and is this then the same as "after an attack" (ie after step 6) ?

In language sense I would argue it's the same thing.

In technical game rules terms, I don't know.

6 hours ago, Bort said:

Related to this.

Is "after you defend" the same as "when you stop being the defender" and is this then the same as "after an attack" (ie after step 6) ?

In language sense I would argue it's the same thing.

In technical game rules terms, I don't know.

That was my point. If 'after you defend' is the same timing as when you stop being the defender, then the attacker stops being the attacker, and from a mechanic standpoint, the ability no longer "knows" who the attacker is to target because at that moment, nobody is the attacker or the defender.

Topic closed. FCS works with B-Foils. You can spend the Lock. UK SOS released a statement, where they share FFG clarified the rules for them. During Aftermath the attack is considered finished for effects like FCS.

24 minutes ago, Schanez said:

Topic closed. FCS works with B-Foils. You can spend the Lock. UK SOS released a statement, where they share FFG clarified the rules for them. During Aftermath the attack is considered finished for effects like FCS.

Reference

25 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

Reference

You sneaky you!

1 hour ago, Schanez said:

Topic closed. FCS works with B-Foils. You can spend the Lock. UK SOS released a statement, where they share FFG clarified the rules for them. During Aftermath the attack is considered finished for effects like FCS.

APPARENTLY.....

The devs‘ statements about their own game DOES matter. 😜 😜 😜

Ok so if during Aftermath the attack is considered finished, what about effect referencing Attacker or Defender, like Dengar ? Do they work anymore ?

Sucks for Ember though. He went from the perfect platform for Proud Tradition to the worst lol

28 minutes ago, Ximatique said:

Ok so if during Aftermath the attack is considered finished, what about effect referencing Attacker or Defender, like Dengar ? Do they work anymore ?

So far, all we have to go by is that FB post (which is far from official, granted) but it states that 'the attack is over "for effects that happen 'during/while you attack"' So its possible they will clarify that at some point that its only finished for those specific effects. But the Attacker and Defender are still in effect.

2 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:

Sucks for Ember though. He went from the perfect platform for Proud Tradition to the worst lol

Maybe, but I think this makes more things better than worse. And If "Ember" is the only one to loose out of this, im ok with that.

From a non-native English speaker:

IMHO, the bit of text that may be put FCS in a different category than other "while attacking/defending" capabilities is the "during this attack" part.

I would consider that "while attacking" extends from Step 1 to 6. "While defending" extends from step 1.c to 6. And "during this attack" extends from step 3 to 5.

38 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

From a non-native English speaker:

IMHO, the bit of text that may be put FCS in a different category than other "while attacking/defending" capabilities is the "during this attack" part.

I would consider that "while attacking" extends from Step 1 to 6. "While defending" extends from step 1.c to 6. And "during this attack" extends from step 3 to 5.

That would mean that you can do something while attacking that does not happen during the attack. I'm not sure that makes sense.

59 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

I would consider that "while attacking" extends from Step 1 to 6. "While defending" extends from step 1.c to 6. And "during this attack" extends from step 3 to 5.

That's pure conjecture based on context clues and non-written information from devs. It's a reasonable assumption, but it's not backed up by a written confirmation in the Rules Reference.

19 minutes ago, Maui. said:

That would mean that you can do something while attacking that does not happen during the attack. I'm not sure that makes sense.

If the game terms were defined that way with entries in the rules Reference I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. Game terms define different mechanics and don't necessarily match their dictionary definitions. Similarly, words that are synonyms in the thesaurus can be distinct in game terms. That's why we have 4-5 different names for a piece of cardboard depending on what that piece represents.

Unfortunately, FFG has still not taken the time to define "during an attack" vs "while attacking" for us (they haven't even defined "during" in relation to timing last time I checked!) so some choose to fall back on literal definitions because they are easily referenced, in which case they look like they should be interchangeable, but(!) context clues on cards and spoken admissions/interviews which are difficult to reference indicate they might not be, hence pages of debate on multiple rules question threads.