What is the order of operations here?

Say i take 2 damage. Can i brace to 1, then e.s.t to zero?

Yep. Given the timing you choose which order to resolve redirect and brace tokens, which normally doesn't matter.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Yep. Given the timing you choose which order to resolve redirect and brace tokens, which normally doesn't matter.

Y'sure on that?

Brace tokens have a specific resolution timing: When you Calculate Damage as part of the Damage Step.

Redirect tokens have a specific resolution timing: When you are *dealing* Damage one by one, as a LATER part of the Damage Step.

Just like Contain is even *before* that, resolved at the "Resolve Critical Effect" part of the Damage Step.

21 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Y'sure on that?

Brace tokens have a specific resolution timing: When you Calculate Damage as part of the Damage Step.

Redirect tokens have a specific resolution timing: When you are *dealing* Damage one by one, as a LATER part of the Damage Step.

Just like Contain is even *before* that, resolved at the "Resolve Critical Effect" part of the Damage Step.

My apologies, this is absolutely right.

2 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

My apologies, this is absolutely right.

Hard enough to catch a Jabbawookie, let alone set one straight!

Thank you all

Isn't this a bit ambiguous with the wording?

Quote

While defending, during the Spend Defense Tokens step, when you spend a "Redirect" defense token, you may reduce the total damage from the attack by 1 instead of resolving that token's effect.

What is the timing for this?

The timing clause is "when you spend...", which would mean it happens before you get to the Resolve Damage step. Which would mean before Brace (and before any special crits).

Except at that point you haven't totalled damage, so you can't reduce the total by 1.

And you have that part that says "instead of resolving that token's effect" - so should it happen at the same time as a Redirect's normal effect? The "you may reduce" is attached to "instead of ... the token's effect", so maybe that is meant to imply timing there. But if it had meant that, it might have said "if you spent" instead of "when you spend."

9 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

Isn't this a bit ambiguous with the wording?

What is the timing for this?

The timing clause is "when you spend...", which would mean it happens before you get to the Resolve Damage step. Which would mean before Brace (and before any special crits).

Except at that point you haven't totalled damage, so you can't reduce the total by 1.

And you have that part that says "instead of resolving that token's effect" - so should it happen at the same time as a Redirect's normal effect? The "you may reduce" is attached to "instead of ... the token's effect", so maybe that is meant to imply timing there. But if it had meant that, it might have said "if you spent" instead of "when you spend."

I second that. I think the wording implies that EST happens during the spend defense tokens step. "Instead of" means that the normal redirect effect is not used, and the timing for the new effect is given in the card ("during the spend defense token step").

11 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

Isn't this a bit ambiguous with the wording?

What is the timing for this?

The timing clause is "when you spend...", which would mean it happens before you get to the Resolve Damage step. Which would mean before Brace (and before any special crits).

Except at that point you haven't totalled damage, so you can't reduce the total by 1.

And you have that part that says "instead of resolving that token's effect" - so should it happen at the same time as a Redirect's normal effect? The "you may reduce" is attached to "instead of ... the token's effect", so maybe that is meant to imply timing there. But if it had meant that, it might have said "if you spent" instead of "when you spend."

1 hour ago, RapidReload said:

I second that. I think the wording implies that EST happens during the spend defense tokens step. "Instead of" means that the normal redirect effect is not used, and the timing for the new effect is given in the card ("during the spend defense token step").

The timing fits with that of Redirect and Brace. You spend the token during the Spend Tokens step. At this point you make the choice to use EST. You apply the effects later when totaling damage.

Redirect works the same way. Spend the token, make the choice of side, apply the effects later when suffering damage. Brace also spends during Spend Tokens, but the effect isn’t applied until later when totaling damage.

9 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

The timing fits with that of Redirect and Brace. You spend the token during the Spend Tokens step. At this point you make the choice to use EST. You apply the effects later when totaling damage.

Redirect works the same way. Spend the token, make the choice of side, apply the effects later when suffering damage. Brace also spends during Spend Tokens, but the effect isn’t applied until later when totaling damage.

Brace and Redirect are defined in the rules. Their timings are non relevant for EST as "instead of" makes clear that the redirect does not yield its normal effect.
All we have to go on to determine the timing of the new effect is the card, and to me that seems unambiguous ("during the spend defense token step").

39 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

Brace and Redirect are defined in the rules. Their timings are non relevant for EST as "instead of" makes clear that the redirect does not yield its normal effect.
All we have to go on to determine the timing of the new effect is the card, and to me that seems unambiguous ("during the spend defense token step").

If you apply EST exclusively during the spend defense tokens step, it does nothing as the “total damage” does not exist until after that.

I reference brace and redirect as they set precedence for making a choice in a timing window and applying effects later.

7 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

If you apply EST exclusively during the spend defense tokens step, it does nothing as the “total damage” does not exist until after that.

I reference brace and redirect as they set precedence for making a choice in a timing window and applying effects later.

Well, assuming one doesn't want the card to have no effect, and assuming that "instead of" means the card does not have the same timing as redirect, I guess the timing of EST could be ruled to be "after damage is totaled". In this case the sequence of brace and EST would be up to the defender. Or it could be ruled any of the other two ways - a FAQ is in order.

25 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

Well, assuming one doesn't want the card to have no effect, and assuming that "instead of" means the card does not have the same timing as redirect, I guess the timing of EST could be ruled to be "after damage is totaled". In this case the sequence of brace and EST would be up to the defender. Or it could be ruled any of the other two ways - a FAQ is in order.

In the meantime, we went to the trouble of collating all the rules experts we could and we agree - including the former worlds judge - you might as well get to the point where you total damage before you reduce that total.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

In the meantime, we went to the trouble of collating all the rules experts we could and we agree - including the former worlds judge - you might as well get to the point where you total damage before you reduce that total.

I'm sure you guys are all very smart and if you use rule-related arguments, I'm sure no one will object to them. To the point of the Brace/EST timing, what was the final decision? Is it up to the defender? Your first post sounds like brace has to happen before EST - that being the reason I even posted here.

Just now, RapidReload said:

I'm sure you guys are all very smart and if you use rule-related arguments, I'm sure no one will object to them. To the point of the Brace/EST timing, what was the final decision? Is it up to the defender? Your first post sounds like brace has to happen before EST - that being the reason I even posted here.

Both happen when the damage is totalled. So it should be defenders choice.

In essence you’re probably always reducing it by one one way or another due to braces rounding - it just stops it from being occasionally worthless.

Yup, you can't reduce damage you don't know the total of. Which is only totaled in the resolve damage step.

Ad mentioned, EST shares the same timing as Brace for the EST effect.