8 hours ago, Mark Caliber said:

Thanks for the clarification on the Minion rules. I might use those the next time they go toe to toe with a Cap ship (which have batteries of cannons and would be an appropriate mechanic for dealing with scores of guns being fired at a target).

But otherwise I don't use the minion rules at all. No nay never.

And in the battle in question I'm not sure how you would use the minion rules for a single YT-1300 . . . I guess it has two turrets, but statistically that ship might be able to do more damage with the two single hits (If the gunners had sufficient skill to hit anything). (And in combat, the freighter did attack two different targets . . . while it lasted).

But to answer the original inquiry. No. Not using the minion rules. I don't have minions in my campaign.

I guess as an aside, we found that the gunners with the dice pool of YGB (Single skill gunner with targeting computer) were finding it nearly impossible to hit any enemy ships vs PPB (Similar silhouette ship with 1 Def). It didn't matter if that gunner was Rebel or Imperial for this particular mission.

It felt very much like a Zander Willow fight . . .

Although the dice can be very weird that way. I had a fight months ago where the PC's were fighting some moderate ranking thugs and I thought the PC's would absolutely MOP the floor with these two thugs, but the thugs actually incapacitated one PC, beat another PC senseless and forced the group to retreat . . . Sometimes the dice giveth and sometimes they taketh . . . but I digress.

Um,, can you clarify a bit more? you NEVER use minion rules? They are a core mechanic of the game and allow for epic firefights that are easily managable by the GM, and clearly represent the whittling down of numbers, plus are key for the use of grenades/blast weapons

how do you deal with squads of stormtroopers, swarms of tie fighters etc without over a dozen NPC initiative slots? I have thrown down 20+ troopers in a battle, managed by only 3-4 slots

Do you only use Rivals/nemesis and limit your battles to more intimate one-on-one fights? or do you always use the squad rules with Rival squad leaders surrounded by ablative armour?

Minion adversaries aren't really suited to acting on their own from the start of an encounter, as they don't have the skills to stand up in a fight (hence the rules for group skills)

.....

Back to your question - You didn't mention it was just a Silhouette 4 YT - in that case I would man it with a Rival/Nemesis Pilot and 2 Rivals with gunnery for the gunners (maybe YYG+B), thus giving it, thus giving it 3 initiative slots - or 4 if you use the Nemesis rule to give it another slot at the end of the initiative order, and a chance to move again, making it more maneuverable and survivable

If you had two ships of that size, I would shrink it down to just a Rival Pilot and Gunner for each ship, and give the pilot one of the turrets to fire. that keeps the NPCs at about 4 slots

.....

Your probably picking up that I like to keep the NPC slots to no more than 4, as I find this is the easiest to manage and I change the difficulty of the encounter by increasing group size or using squad rules with leaders. Other things I do for really big fights is group multiple adversaries into one initiative slot, such as two squads of stormtroopers having 1 slot.

To clarify . . . From Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Quote

Definition of never

1 : not ever : at no time " I never met her"

2 : not in any degree : not under any condition " never the wiser for his experience"

Nope. All of the opposition forces are individuals. Probably at the "Rival" level.

If the PC's decide to attack a Battalion of Stormtroopers, then each trooper is an individual and the PC's need to fight through 500+ individual Storm Troopers.

I have about 20 - 30 appropriate Stormtrooper minis so that's a 'practical' maximum of mini's that the PC's will face at any one time. So the PC's will probably only take on a squad of soldiers at any given time.

The other half of this equation is that the PC's are force sensitive characters averaging 1,200 - 1,400 Exp. (I have some newer players and they started in the 900 exp range with minimal limitations on Min Maxing) So these PC's can (and do) tear through normal storm troopers like an industrial Cuisinart TM through a Tex Mex salad bar.

Chunky salsa!

In extreme cases, the PC's will face waves of opposition forces. (This is actually rare, but if the PC's REALLY mess up, a distinct possibility).

There are a couple of short cuts that I do take that help:

First: IF the troopers are basic troopers with only 1 skill rank in Ranged (Hvy/Light) then they're rarely likely hit. (YGB w/ an aim). That helps the PC's in that the game mechanics make it REALLY hard for low skilled characters to succeed. And conversely, the game mechanics favor very high skilled players to hit VERY often.

Second: the lethality of most weapons make keeping track of NPC damage REALLY easy. So if a PC hits, the question is "Did you do enough damage to take this guy out?" If no, then that trooper is 'injured' and any other subsequent hit is likely to take them down for good. So I don't actually need paper to track NPC hit points. (Nemesis are rare exceptions where I stat out an OpFor and track individual damage).

Third: Who has Line of Sight (LOS) on the PC's? My players are really good at using the environment to good effect. At the most, I don't roll more than 10 attacks against the PC's on a given turn. And since the NPC's are standardized once I get one dice pool set up, I can just quickly roll that in sufficient sequence to see what shots hit.

And on the other side, in most fights, once the NPC's start landing blows, the PC's start rethinking their approach and are often smart enough to fall back or retreat outright. Blasters generally really hurt. A lot! (Oh and I nerfed the stimpak rules so the players are [appropriately] scared to use too many of them).

Skilled opponents give the PC's greater pause (for now) but now that we're transitioning into getting these Jedi Rubes into lightsaber combat I should be able to up the skill and ante for the Nemesis level opponents that they face too.

I'm actually chomping at the bit to introduce inquisitors . . .

I am reminded of a combat that I particularly enjoyed. The PC's were on a timed mission (they had to load 12 cargo pallets onto two freighters) while endless waves of B1 Battle Droids tried to kill them. Basically I set up a Warehouse map layout, the PC's parked their ships and I introduced 8 new B1's per turn. (There was also a line of B1's approaching in sequence that the players could track (and attack when the opportunity presented itself).

It was a tough fight and the players had to balance between presenting sufficient fire power to keep the waves of enemies at bay, while that steady stream of OpFor just kept coming . . .

There were some very close calls and as munitions ran out (They had two X-Wings providing Close Air Support with Proton Torpedoes) and casualties began to mount it looked like a very close fight.

And as team members began to fall, part of the problem became, how do we retrieve these fallen comrades without getting overwhelmed. That led to a lot of dramatic moments for heroes to be heroes!

And lastly, my campaign is more a Role Playing Game than a Roll Playing Game. Combat is actually quite rare as the PC's generally overcome most of their obstacles socially. But this might be in part because the players have come to fear combat. Those E-11 Blaster Bolts burn in both directions . . .

Have you looked at the Phalanx rules in Rise of the Separatists? It's a great way of having endless waves of opponents but still using the ease of use of Minion groups.

I had planned on using it in my last session if the PCs decided to blow up the Death Star by infiltrating it and rigging it to blow itself up - Two Phalanxes, 4 Wide, one at each entrance to engineering and needing to only get to Short to Overwhelm while the tech savvy character dealt with the technical challenge of rigging the Death Star to blow up. Didn't get to run it as they decided on a trench run instead (and sabotage from within from another section of the Death Star).

EDIT

I'll also add that my PCs where ~1900XP and I could throw 4 Minion groups with 6 Stormtrooper Minions each and 2 Stormtrooper Sergeants and almost no Stormtroopers would survive the PC initiative slots in round 1 but using Phalanxes allowed your basic Stormtrooper Minion it to be actually challenging because they'd always get to shoot back and get an extra attack (Overwhelm) if they advanced enough. Just what I needed to challenge a very high XP group.

Snarky dictionary quote aside,

Hey its your game, you do you. just wondering, is this a D&D/D20 mindset? (I have only played FFG SW, so I am curious as to the reticence for minion groups)

But having your (I am assuming around 4) Players sit through 10+ NPC initiative slots...ugggh. how do you deal with keeping their attention.

I follow the guidance of at all times have the PCs doing the majority of the rolling, hence my usual limit of 4 NPC slots. The minion rules are essential for this. they increase the threat and damage potential of the large group of adversaries, without slowing down the flow of the combat encounter. They speed things up immensely.

They also greatly enhance the enjoyment for the PCs, as instead of taking down that single stormtrooper with their blaster rifle or lightsaber, their attack represents a series of shots/strikes that if rolled well enough, can mow down several opponents at once, (I see each attack action as a series of shots/swings, not just a single one. The devs have said the same)

It makes grenades and other explosives extra awesome too, as you have clumps of targets that can all be wiped with one well placed throw.

Admittedly, I've modified much of the FFG Star Wars rules, so my game has only a passing resemblance to what most other people are playing.

My preferred game system is GURPS. I was happy to see the simplifications that GURPS IV implemented, but that's still a very detailed system with hit locations, specified crits, and can get kinda crunchy (if you so choose). GURPS is definitely way more lethal than FFG Star Wars too, but GURPS turned out to model 'real life' pretty well. (Well as much as one could with a Magic system and varying tech levels guessing how tech might develop over the next couple of centuries).

That said, as a GURPS GM, keeping the pace up when dealing with those game mechanics is essential. So when dealing with a very simple and streamlined system like FFG Star Wars, this Star Wars game mechanically operates in the blink of an eye, by comparison. So rolling a dice pool 10 times can only take me 3 seconds tops and when your PC is being SHOT at, you're attention is firmly fixed on whether or not damage is being dealt to your character.

Most of my players are also committed sufficiently to want to know how the battlescape is changing to that they can react and make an ideal decision.

And by comparison, we have two new players who are learning the dice mechanics and my combat resolutions take a fraction of time that the new players do. (They'll get up to speed with everyone else soon enough).

In part, the problem of keeping the players attention hasn't been an issue.

I think another thing that helps me is that I've been playing, studying, and perfecting FFG Star Wars for three years now. Rather than thinking about the game mechanics, I'm operating on an "instinct"* level where I don't have to think about the game mechanics when operating NPCs.

I also played Mordheim for a bit. THAT's a crunchy mini's tactical game where you DO have to keep track of 30 mini's (15 per team) all moving independently and that experience probably helps me out too. If you don't know the Mordheim rules well, that game can drag on . . .

Now with that all laid out, I'm not running a mini's game with my Star Wars RPG. It's a Role -Playing Game. It is very rare (even in heated combat) for my game to be reduced down to just mechanical dice rolls. The NPC's are talking and interacting with the PC's and I'm careful to keep the players engaged. For instance, rather than move a couple of Opponent Mini's, grab a bundle of dice, rattle out a couple of rolls and then report, "Your character takes seven points of damage from a blaster hit" my sessions play out more like:

GM: "These three troopers pour out from this side hatch and dive behind these crates, unleashing a withering series of blaster fire while screaming at you to 'Surrender or die, you Rebel Scum!'"

<Roll dice>

GM: "Okay one of those blaster bolts actually finds it's mark hitting 'Slider', causing eleven wounds. Remember to reduce that by your soak. Total should be seven?"

Player1: "Yep. Got it. 'Guys we're being flanked now!'"

GM: "Yes you are and you have two PC initiative slots now. Who wants to use those?"

Player2: "'Boomer, do you still have Grenades left?"

Player3: "'You KNOW I do.'"

Player 2: "'Boomer! Take care of that flank!' Wrasp is going to use the Field Commander Talent so that Boomer can maneuver into place to attack the flank! 'Hang in there Slider and Duster! Just keep that front held!'"

I avoided D20 altogether and have been generally dissatisfied with D&D since it's inception. I am currently playing in two D&D 5E campaigns and the 5E rules work well enough . . . but it's still D&D.

One last bit about the minion rules. When I was first introduced to the Minion Rules and watched them play out (as a player) I just didn't like them. I've studied Minion Rules and against lower levels PC's that can make 'low rank' conflict VERY difficult. Too difficult in my opinion. And with very highly skilled PC's (like the ones I GM) Minion Rules can make combat too easy. We had one player who was putting out an average of 25 - 35 points of damage per attack. With a simple unarmored minion group with 5 WP each, that character could slaughter 5 - 7 Minions with a single sniper shot . . . . So in some respects the Minion Rules also defy my sense of belief.

So that's my thoughts on Minions . . .

But back OT, I like the shield rules that we came up with. They seem to work nicely.

Oh, someone mentioned that I should have made the YT-1300 gunners more capable and while I could have, narratively that didn't make sense. The crew just weren't highly capable combatants. There was an Imperial Presence that should have kept them from ever experiencing combat and they really didn't have a good reason to be that well trained.

The PC's are awesome and sometimes as a GM you need to let them be awesome when it's appropriate. And in the context of THAT battle, it was a VERY good thing that the PC's wrapped up the battle as quickly as they did.

* Instinct isn't the right word . . . There's a state of experience where you get to the point where knowledge becomes internalized so much that you don't consciously think through an advanced learned action.

19 hours ago, Funk Fu master said:

having your (I am assuming around 4) Players

Actually I have 5 players at the table. I've been very public about that being my personal maximum limit.