HELLO

1) Do they have an analogue of the internets in the hives?

2) If not for commoners, then maybe for officials?

3) At least they should have the email, correct?

FAREWELL

The only reference, I am aware of, to anything approaching the complexity of a network like the internet was in Titanicus, on a major forge world. They called it the noosphere, and it appeared to work like a wireless network that only those AdMech's who were important enough could access, through special implants.

Hope that helps.

egalor said:

I think the answer is no.

I see 2 reasons for that :

1) Technical level is too low on most worlds. Cogitators are strange nearly mystical devices only provided by the Mechanicus.

2) For the Adepta, such media are seen as open windows toward heresy and sedition, IMHO.

egalor said:

1) From reading the novels, I would say not really. Ignorance is heavily promoted in the imperium.

2) Commoners are barely considered as far as the imperium is concerned, except as far as taxes and work force goes. In hive worlds the administratum will have access to information via cogitators and servitors.

Officials would access via data terminals.

3) email haha, no. Communication is probably in the form of dataslate and courier for secure private communication.

FatPob said:

I think that's what I wanted to know: a kind of corporate email.

DarkLoic said:

What of the hives which are usually technologically advanced?

egalor said:

In the 41st milenium, technology is mostly mystical, especially advanced one, arcane knowledge from a distant past.

Simply how to make it is mostly lost and forgotten and techpriest who are the most versed in this rare knowledge mainly know little more than how to repair it.

As I said before, as far as I know, cogitators are strange nearly mystical devices only provided by the Mechanicus.

So only the wealthiest worlds with close ties with the Mechanicus can afford such technology.

Thought, perhaps a few worlds can have such networks, certainly falling apart, inherited from a lost golden age or previous xenos influence.

one way to think of how "computers" work is as follows:

The Database

The administratum have huge libraries of scrolls, tomes and books of information, all scribed by servitors.

To Access

Using a terminal and appropriate interface jacks or via vox recognition, a request for information is made.

Read Out

A servitor identifies the need of the data requestor - I would imagine by access codes.

Access codes and other information would be stored in a cogitator - a huge collection of machinery (think the original computer back in the 1960s - room sized machinery). Once the servitor has checked the codes against the cogitator, then goes and locates and reads the appropriate scroll. They then feed back information as appropriate to the classification

Long distance communication is via astropaths, and suchj information would be decoded by an astropath and scribed by a servitor. If this was for the attention of a specific indivdual, then this would be couriered to the appropriate person via data-slate at a pre-determined location, though I suppose it is possible it could arrive anywhere depending on the sender/receiver of the message via visions etc.

Information and the Size of the Imperium

The imperium spreads across a vast distance, and there is a lot of information that is collated by the administratum. Primarily on a planet, the administratum's activity would be centered on ensuring that the world hits the required tariffs dictated by the Imperium, with everything else taking second place.

Knowledge about other worlds, especially non-prime worlds is likely to be scant, and inaccurate. it is not heard of for the data to be decades, centuries or even millenia of years out of date.

Individual Census

No doubt somewhere in the vaults would be some kind of census about a poulation, but quite simply, if you are not importan, you are most likely to be a a one line entry listing, birth, and eventually death.

Indivduals of note would have more detail, and certainly criminals and such like may have details with Arbites offices. Perhaps some well know criminals may have some kind of wild west wanted poster within these offices.

Data Requests

Information is dangerous, and in the wrong hands could be used for heretical means. Any request for data would certainly draw attention from someone. As an inquisitor (or apostle of), there is likely to be litte issues, though there may be keen interest on who you are asking information via Imperium archives. After all what interest would the inquisition have in any God-Emperor fearing citizen.

The best acces to information would most likely be from "the street", rumours and such like, and maybe even specific information brokers.

That's my take anyway

Hmm, I don't the Ravenor books handy and it is a long time since i read them, but if there are no similar systems of the internet what and how exactly did Interrogator Carl Thonius hack into?

I haven't read these books however

one would assume the hack is via a servitor or maybe even a cogitator to connect and control them to gather information required without using appropriate access codes. Again it must be via some direct connection, a data jack.

Also the closer one is to terra, I would suspect the better the quality of information.

FatPob, Iacton,

Thanks for the input. That changes my view of the technology. So, there is no Google in 40k?

egalor said:

Nope, absolutely nothing like it.

Iacton said:

Ravenor is not the greatest book to reference when it comes to 40k tech-fluff. The Rogue Trader in it had a tiny ship with a crew of 70 that was capable of warp travel. It also featured numerous void ships docking in-atmosphere. Technology is not really a rare or special thing in Abnett's early works.

Snidesworth said:

I know, I still think it is worth mentioning.

In my honest opinion: No google, linked/networked cogitators yes, albeit very rare and certainly not for the common masses.

Iacton said:

The local Administratum databases.

It's the difference between "the internet" - which is a public access network which contains a wide variety of information, entertainment and individually "published" material - and a private/secure database of government or business information.

So, are there intergrated computer networks in 40K? On some worlds, yes, but they are most likely secure and dedicated to certain users... such as the Mechanicus or the Administratum. Public networks like the modern internet and especially search engines like Google are highly unlikely... remember the basic tenant: Knowledge is Power. Guard it Well.

Classic 40k answer: It depends. Most forge and hive worlds will have a data network structure of some kind in place, simply because it's not possible to run a planetwide state even halfway efficiently without them - ask the romans. The internet as we know would of course be non-existent on all but a very few worlds because it's too good a tool for seditionists. Nobles, techpriests and officials, on the other hand side, would have partial access to stuff that pertains to them.

My last Dark Heresy campaign was mostly set on Canopus which I had envisioned as a newly forming hive world with a high level of technology. Loads of tech priests knocking around to study the local archaotech sites. Abundant cogitators by Imperial standards. So a DataNet existed, almost entirely for government, noble and commercia use. Users had contact details (useful for when the party needed to be contacted by their allies). It was really intended as a heavily restricted tool for buying and selling services for the rich and influential, a far cry from a modern freewheeling "internet" with a little of the functionality.

There IS networking in 40K, albeit of a rudimentary nature. Space Marines use the Signum, for example, which collates targeting data from various sources (ref. Space Marines Codex), and the Imperial Guard field the Master Vox which "allows voice and data transfer" and provides "hololithic, voice, data and telegraph communications." (Imperial Munitorum Manual p.85)

What that networking isn't however, is reliable.

There certainly isn't anything like the equivalent of the Internet and any given area of a planetary data network outside of a Forge World is going to be "down" more often than not. (Remember that the ability to maintain such a network is probably limited to a handful of specialists or Tech Priests). Books, scrolls, data slates and related storage media are the norm. Cogitators within a given location might be linked together and work in concert, but their data would be transmitted over that unreliable vox network (if at all).

With regards the Noosphere - going by "Titanicus" and "Mechanicum", thats more of a conceptual domain, its a shared consciousness, kind of like the Data Stream that the Cylons interface with in the new series of Battlestar Galactica. It isn't used outside of the Mechanicum, and even then, not everyone in the Mechanicum is capable of accessing it.

Thank you all, dear friends!

I will make the necessary corrections in my games starting from tonight.

why should abnetts book not be canon? for me he is the best WH author. In Ravenor there are cogitators (a kind of computer terminals with keyboard) which the agents use to hack into databases. so there is a kind of primitive network on hive and imperial worlds, but not in the way modern 21st century knows it. At least this suggests Abnetts Ravenor.

There a few tenants of the 40K Imperium of man which should not be overlooked-

Paranoia

Security

Secularism

Ignorance

Real or imagined, the enemy is everywhere, within and outside the imperium, its status is maintained with rigid, uncomprimising and totalitarian control of both the masses and a close eye kept on those in power. Those that are in power maintain it by isolating their knowledge from other members of the Imperium to maintain their status quo in the galaxy, impringing on those secular power bases (Ad-Mech, Ad-Admin etc) is tantemount to telling that their services are no longer required... and make no mistake, they will not go quietly or surrender that without quite a considerable amount of compensation.

So your dumb, corpse starch fed arse stumbles into the administratum looking for information. "Hi I'd like to know about the tectonic activity on planet Blah"

"For what purpose?"

"Just curious..."

At this point your answer should be followed up with something the equivalent of a rosette or if you're a rogue trader- an assload of cash, if not, your question is irrelevant to your position at worst probably maked as someone to be watched by the ordo hereticus and at best, blackbanned from the adminstratum gates for wasting 15seconds of the scribe's time.

The same goes for networked cogitators, they are irrelevant to your position 99.9% of the time and not there for your convenience to turn an STC network capable of surviving a nuclear blast in the upper atmosphere that is of critical military intelligence, into a big titty porn sharing database, place to put feline pictures with heretical text and send teh lulz to friends and family members with chained messages of funny jokes. People found using the network for such purposes, regardless of their position will be banned, fired and killed by the administrators of the network.... just like work

I honestly just dont see the level of investment being done to let Joe 'Grox F***ing' Civilian onto a networking being worth more than 1minutes consideration by anyone in power, because it requires both the exorbitant materials to do it with, the highly skilled people to administer it and a whole heap of cranky people to filter everything that is said, typed or posted on that network before it turns into a quickly organised hotbed of insurrection and heresy. He wants to talk to his mum, he can write a letter.

superklaus said:

In some ways, Abnet is the new canon. At least, his Gaunts Ghosts novels have shaped every Imperial Guard codex since their release and some of his language has become the new standard for 40k speak.

However, he is generally criticised for have a shaky grasp of certain elements of the background. IIRC, he admited that Gaunt's rank of "Colonel-Commisar" actually represents his lack of understanding of the Imperial Guard command structure. He has give us one Rogue Trader ship with a crew of 70 and another with a crew of 1 (as opposed to the new canon of 20,000+). Overall, Abnets worlds often have a higher tech base then is general accepted and a much lower level of tech-mysticism and less general "grim dark" then is usual. He has presented an Imperial beyond the battlefield where actual human people that we the readers can relate to live, work, play and love... an Imperial that isn't entirely Space Nazis meets the Spanish Inquisition. Whether you approve or not depends on your own view of what the Imperial should be.

LuciusT said:

Hm. I think for roleplaying its quite practical to play humans with humanoid feats and not just grotesque fascists with big guns and no brains. So I would vote for HIS vision of Warhammer and not for the OTHER vision. Maybe his books which shows us how real humans could live in this nightmare world are the ones which caused me to begin to pretty much like the setting.

The other thing about the Rogue Trader with only 70 crew members is a little bit more difficult to chew. Especially if you consider the fact that you cannot "handwave" it very easily, because the story depends on the limited crew resources of the rogue trader. I guess its much more difficult to hijack a ship with 20k crew members with just a dozen or so thugs. (like they did with Ravenors ship on Bonners Planet) Additionally it seems that the other standard trader space ships in the Daniverse (which is Abnetts part of the universe called by himself or GW) are also not that much bigger than the 70 crew Trader.

OTOH its much easier to imagine a small free trader with 70 crew members than one with 20k crew members. If you accept Abnetts numbers for true, the whole sector/subsector thing is more like traveller (not that this would be a failure - traveller is a great concept and game). If you accept the 20k crew members then everything suddently becomes extremely BIG. With that many crew members space travel is much more difficult, expensive and rare than with Abnetts numbers. I am not sure if I like such a fact. I think for roleplaying Abnetts numbers are more suited. With them the setting becomes more organic, compact and logical. (at least if you are able to accept space orcs)

Eg. If the average new caoon Rogue Trader has manpower ressources like a small terran city has, then many things change and become rather random. With command over 70 crew members a Rogue Trader is only powerful, but not almighty. For rpg I like this better. Additionally I think that with that few space travels trade is not very important anymore, because not many captains can afford to move small cities of 20k people trough space. A general decline in wealth would be the result.

Maybe you know, if Abnetts numbers are only valid those in his subsectors (possible they build there smaller vessels than in the other segmentums)?

superklaus said:

First, oh dear, did you use the word "logical" in reference to the 40k setting? For shame! ;-p

Seriously, I believe that in the 40k setting, space travel is supposed to be incredibly rare (for the common fellow) and incredibly expensive. It's only ever undertaken when it simply must be done by those who have to do such to get stuff done. There's no real luxury cruses and happening vacation spots just two systems away. Barring the rare and important individual (or those who are about to die for someone else) where you're born is probably where you'll die. It's like mixing the 1600's age of sail with the Holy Roman Empire -people don't just voyage about for funsies (Rogue Traders and their insane retinue excluded) not only because of the shear scale that travel must be done at for it to be worth it, but also because of that nagging little detail of having to litterly sail through Hell if you want to get anwhere -definitly not something to be done on a whim.

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that applying the 20k numbers makes everything BIG. That's pretty much the 40k way, insanely stupidly, mind bogglingly BIG. When dealing with 40k, when you think of something, what ever it is, it's wrong because it's too small. You have to make it bigger. Once you made it about as big as you think it could or should be, multiply that by a hundred and you'll have something in proper 40k proportions. The galaxy is massive, after all, mind boggling dear-god-I-can't-imagine-it massive with so much space, we simply can't comprehend it. And in that incomprehensible amount of space is an empire so massive we simply can't appreciate how utterly massive it is and how much space it covers because we simply have no practical point of reference in all of our experience. While we can understand it in the abstract to a degree, we can never fully appreciate the shear size of it. For such an empire to exist things would simply have to be done on a stupidly huge scale as well.

However, space travel is still very important, some worlds would collapse without it. But that travel is not and can not be done on a small scale. That wouldn't impact a whole world enough. Goods must be moved with massive city sized ships with crews that are born and die on them. These ships aren't owned by the captain for no individual (barring rogue traders again) could ever possibly be important enough to won something of such importance. Most vessels are owned by the Imperium though the Imperial Navy or the various Adaptus Mechanicus sects. Second to those two juggernauts are the vessels owned or licensed by massive multi-system trade combines (what multinational corporations wish they were) or Rogue Trader dynasties. Very rarely, so rare it's almost unheard of, will you encounter a ship which isn't a part of a fleet of one of these powers and its owned strait out by it's captain. Because of the scale that things must be done at, it is too much for a single individual or ship to handle. So, individual captains certainly can't afford to move small cities through space, but whole multi-system trade combines, the Adaptus Mechanicus,the Imperial Navy, and the Rogue Trader Dynasties sure could as long as their fleets continue to do the work they need done ;-)

Rogue Traders in 40k are, indeed, incredibly powerfully individuals. They are the heads of massive dynasties and in command of millions if not billions of souls. They have writs giving them the political power and clout on par with some of the more important Planetary Governors (who have a whole planet), and the unquestionable Inquisitors. They're not so much Han Solo's and Malcolm Reynolds plying their trade routs as they are kings and conquerors flying their own personal kingdom through space.

The biggest hurdle when it comes to immersing ones self in 40k is wrapping your head around the shear size of it all and the incredible numbers involved. That's one thing Abnet, from what i understand, has struggled with beyond his mundane treatment of technology and the modernized perceptions of his characters. I guess your preference and Abnet's from what people say, is for a setting filled with mom-and-pop corner stores and family owned small businesses where as the main party-line of 40k says that Wal-Mart (or Casco depending on your location) owns everything ;-)

LuciusT said:

I don't think anyone has a problem with the setting existing beyond the battlefield. It is most certainly filled with human people that work, play, love and can be related to. I definitely don't. Part of the reason I love the 40k RPGs so much is because they move away from the warzones and show us what the rest of the galaxy is like. The Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader books detail many places removed from war and the novels set in the Calixis Sector by Sandy Mitchell do so as well and, crucially, do so while maintaining the themes and tone of the setting. The abundance of tech, "practical" space travel, sidelining of religion and muted superstition regarding psykers makes Abnett's early stuff feel more sci-fi than 40k.