I have enjoyed playing defender wings, I find them almost unkillable, with veteran wing leader. Anyway, I played against them and realized, I didn't have a plan. In a timed game you can avoid them. but if you have a huge ship then that will not be able to avoid them and they will be able to destroy it. To be fair they are a lot of points, 230ish but I feel they can handle 300 no problem.
How do you deal with them?
I have the same question about standard-game Defenders, which I can see only being exacerbated in Epic play. From standard play, it seems the answer is to focus fire with everything you've got as early as possible? And get lucky? Defenders are kinda ridiculous.
Yeah, but the wrinkle becomes veteran wing leader. With that you can spread the one or two damage out over the 12 shields with each shot (wing of 3). I suppose you can ion but that realy only slows the wing down. At any rate I feel it takes more points to fight them then they are worth.
In standard play, I would think they have a hard time killing enough stuff in the time limit. I suppose the Ewing is similar but it has less shields and no free evade.
Yep, they're really strong. Box them in so they can't fly 3-5 maneuvers, concentrate fire on the wingmen first. Luckily, the aces aren't all that strong, so that doesn't matter all that much.
#Stefan , their aces are certainly not the worst, a ps 5 with a flipped card ability is useful against all but the lightest ships. As for boxing them in, I find ships with a blue 5 straight quite difficult to box, especially when there is no time limit.
Sure, but if they just go 5-straight, they likely won't hit you that round. Yes, they are extremely strong jousters. But if you have a 6-ship wing jousting them, that limits their movement options quite a bit.
Edited by Stefan7 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:Defenders are kinda ridiculous.
😂 made me giggle. More seriously they are kinda ridiculously priced too (therefore fairly priced!)
@BenDay focus on wingmates, try to block, ionise the wing leader to break the wing if you want to get the wing leader.
4 hours ago, Sasajak said:😂 made me giggle. More seriously they are kinda ridiculously priced too (therefore fairly priced!)
@BenDay focus on wingmates, try to block, ionise the wing leader to break the wing if you want to get the wing leader.
I mean I guess? My last action against one was 100 point Aces High, and it took three of us together to finally take it down. And he still won.
But yeah, don't even try to hit the Wing Leader. Just hit his meatshields.
How many are in this wing of TIE defenders? I can't help but think that mines are the way to go. Maybe 2-3 Jakki Gunrunners with Proximity mines? TIE bombers with mines and Skilled Bombardier are great, but not taken very often. Also, debris hurts defenders more than asteroids or gas clouds. Ooh! They would HATE electro-proton bomb!
As far as tactics...? If there's some way to approach such that their K-turn would be disadvantageous... That could work. I think of the StarViper shuffle, but that's only one ship (two if you count phantoms).
I agree that you don't shoot the wing leader. Pincer maneuver helps because otherwise they win the joust by getting actions on the K-turn.
Bombs may be the answer! It is just a question of getting the to fly over them. I need to get the fully loaded expansion. Also, as you said, attacking at an angle and then if you can an s-loop will help you stay out of arc for another pass.
oh and yes 3 defenders is the biggest I have used or seen.
Getting bombs in front of Defenders isn't exactly easy...
6 hours ago, Stefan said:Getting bombs in front of Defenders isn't exactly easy...
I mean, the idea is that your having bombs discourages them from the K-turn. If they go for it, they take damage; if they don't, they aren't lining up to shoot you, and maybe you can even predict which way they choose to go so you can get behind them. It could work.
Yeah, true.
On 1/26/2020 at 5:01 AM, BenDay said:How do you deal with them?
Well, the first question is.....are you playing a Scenario or death match? If a Scenario, then focus on the objectives (unless they are the objectives). I feel that a lot of people are just doing death match at 500 pts at the moment. Epic Battles can be really interesting games to play with some Huge ships. It makes the games a lot more interesting and breaks things up like unkillable wings.
On 1/26/2020 at 7:00 PM, Parakitor said:I can't help but think that mines are the way to go. Maybe 2-3 Jakki Gunrunners with Proximity mines? TIE bombers with mines and Skilled Bombardier are great, but not taken very often. Also, debris hurts defenders more than asteroids or gas clouds. Ooh! They would HATE electro-proton bomb!
Yes, this was my first thought. Use Bombs and Mines. Yes, they would hate the Electro-Proton bomb in the right spot.
19 hours ago, BenDay said:Bombs may be the answer! It is just a question of getting the to fly over them.
The answer should be Bombs and Mines. Remember that Tie Defenders like to joust and don't like to turn. If you have ships with Mines, you probably want to try jousting them. When at optimal range everyone picks their dials, then you drop Mines during System, then you guys move. There is a good chance they went for the 5 K-turn and that should be exactly where the Mines went.
Mines are good to clutter up the battlefield. Once you start limiting where they can go, you can start boxing them in. They like large, open lanes where they can just K-turn back and forth. Even if they don't hit your Mines, they still stay there and help fill up that empty space.
Conner Nets are big to help with these guys. When ionized, they are out of formation automatically. They are also slow with only the Focus action (no free Evade). That makes getting one of those guys focus fired down a lot easier.
Cluster Mines and Proximity Mines are also good as they take up space and can damage a Defender by just running over it. The only problem is they can also just roll no hits. The Defenders shouldn't want to hit them, though.
Bombs can be trickier to use. You have to get it right and also guess where they are going to go. Trajectory Simulator is one option. Doing the joust and then dropping one is another way you can do it. Sometimes it is worth it to fling a bomb somewhere that they might go, just to hit them if they do. It is especially useful on ships with Reload as they can just get more Bombs. The Defender can be predictable, though, so use that to your advantage. That....and the fact that it is a Wing and you can hit at least one of them.
Ion Bombs are great because it breaks the Wing up. Ionized or Tractored ships are automatically bounced out of a Wing.
BUMPING is another great tool to use. The Defender has to finish it's maneuver before it gets that free Evade. It makes them predictable. If you hit them, they are out of the Wing. They don't get the Evade token. They don't get an action. It is a great way to single one out to be focused down. If you have someone with Intimidation to do it, it's even better!
Tractor Beams that hit are also good. If you can get someone to bump....and then hit them with a Tractor Beam early, they are -1 Agility. So, you are looking at a Tie Defender with 2 Green dice and zero tokens. Not as scary.
If you are able to spread the damage around the Wing and all the ships have taken Hull damage, it is good to throw a Concussion Missile at them. They have to all be hurt to really be worth it and the attack has to hit. 3 Red dice vs. 3 Green can be tough. If you do hit, though, Crits for everyone!
One of my regulars (J-bot) loves to run smaller ships over with Huge ones. If you are going fast, that is a lot of red dice to through out there. Defenders can be predicable. Naked Gozantis, C-ROCs (yo yo), and GR-75 are pretty cheap. A speed 4 move that hits Defenders is 4 crits.....and it breaks the formation.
It can be done, but you might have to build a list against it. Then again, things like Trajectory Simulator Proton Bombs / Electron Proton Bombs are pretty scary in Huge games.
Edited by heychadwickYes, I play about once every two weeks and currently it is always a death match. Perhaps scenarios is another answer, then ignoring them becomes possible. Personally I never use tragedy simulators, it is a just a choice I make, and it stops me feeling dirty.
I love deathmatches
4 hours ago, Stefan said:I love deathmatches
I like a variety. Ships like the GR-75 and Gozanti have a harder time in death matches. There are also a ton of upgrades that don't have a place in death matches, as you have been categorizing. It is interesting to me to have a game that requires more thought than just "kill kill kill".
Oh, I will graduate there for sure. But I feel these games are good to learn the ropes, and right now, they're fun.
The simplest solution might be to drive over them with a huge ship. A 3-5 speed maneuver will deal 3-5 crits and displace the formation. If you deal 4 damage, you get them to half points for 115ish points.
Simple in so far as its an easy to grasp concept, but I find it hard to run over things on purpose with Huge Ships.
On 2/4/2020 at 2:16 AM, Stefan said:Simple in so far as its an easy to grasp concept, but I find it hard to run over things on purpose with Huge Ships.
I find if you go to set up some solid shooting....you end up the next round in perfect ram spot. Maybe it's whenever I don't try?
On 2/4/2020 at 1:16 AM, Stefan said:Simple in so far as its an easy to grasp concept, but I find it hard to run over things on purpose with Huge Ships.
It does take practise. Huge ship movement is... interesting to calculate. I've gotten better, but with predictable wings like defenders, you can target them to either hit them, or prevent them from doing their best maneuver.
I guess I need to try more. However, one word of caution. In our last game, my opponent's CR90 actually rammed over my Defenders, but that sealed its fate because it lost its complete energy and got stressed (!), thereby losing all actions for a turn. All for the price of three shields on two Defenders.
On 2/7/2020 at 4:12 PM, Stefan said:I guess I need to try more. However, one word of caution. In our last game, my opponent's CR90 actually rammed over my Defenders, but that sealed its fate because it lost its complete energy and got stressed (!), thereby losing all actions for a turn. All for the price of three shields on two Defenders.
if it only ran over 2 small bases, the CR90 doesnt lose any energy. it just takes 2 dice of damage, which at worst cancels the shield regen.
only terrain collisions costs energy/gives stress.
Edited by RakaydosHmm, I feel like ramming any wing is about the same difficulty, predictable k turn or not. Are we suggesting that the best use of a huge ship is a ramming hit point fortress. Certainly when they are going fast they do serious damage, but the edge of the board can show up quick and if your opponent knows the trick they are easy to dodge.