My first post on FFG!

Im a huge fan of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, and have hundreds of models. In particular I love Skaven!

*squeek*

Ive always known about WFRP but never got into it, or found others who were.

Last week, for no reason whatsoever, I suddenly, impulsively felt the need to get into roleplaying. I think I was daydreaming as I was looking at all my minis laid out on the table, and realized I could have a new way to play with them. But then I havent roleplayed in decades, so which edition to buy?

Shiny new 3rd, grognard-y 1st, or the popular 2nd edition? So I spent days and nights poring over the reviews here, at bgg.com, rpg.net, and most every blog or fansite that had a review, even amazon. I understand the nature of the internet, the vocal minority and such... edition warriors and fanboi trenchlines are in every genre and forum. And still, I couldnt decide which edition to buy into. But from the reviews alone, from a rpg viewpoint, I think 2nd edition was ahead by a "tail". ;p

*facepaw*

Here's what I think Im looking for:

1 - Of course, a good roleplay experience (I loved Call of Cthulhu once upon a time, more so than AD&D)

2 - But also when me and my mates feel inclined, an easy tactical tabletop/rpg combat simulator (so we can use warhammer miniatures and dungeon terrain)

This may sound like heresy to some, but I think im looking for the tactical combat of d&d 4e for the combat parts (definitely simpler and faster though), and call of cthulhu for the rpg parts. I like how 3rd edition combat sounds, but can a tactical tabletop simulator be house ruled into it easily, with minis and terrain?

So which edition did I buy into? The shiny one... hence my post on this forum. I think the skaven on the "Edge of Night" cover was the thing that tipped my vote at the end, logic and reason be damned. (I love that pic! the street reminds me of mordheim, and is that skaven a gutter runner maybe?)

Bought the core set and everything released so far (x2 extra dice sets too) via online stores. 3 - 5 days delivery time...

Now its just the waiting game. Oh, and hello everyone...

*whiskers and tail twitch*

So, you don't need advices at all then? Oh well, hello then, I good gaming!

If I remember right, there's already someone who've posted some house rules for tactical gaming (to use with square grids, I think). If it interests you, look around in the House Rule forum. In the other hand, I think you can easily convert " 1 manoeuver" = "x inches" if you're used to WHFB movement.

Thanks, for pointing out the house rules forum, somehow i hadnt noticed it before.

might not have to house rule anything though...

Found several threads, and am now optimistic about using minis and terrain with location cards as abstract areas.

Or more precisely, i hope that in my games - location cards will be abstract areas that have pretty 3-D terrain dressings.

I hate to say this, cus I love love love 2nd ed, but third edition is actually more fun from a game system pov. The world remains the same, but v3 has a tone, a feel and an attention to detail that you don't see in any other product out there, period.

Doompaw Of Clan Skryre said:

If your intention is to go abstract with 3D terrain and minis, you won't need much house rules, indeed. Just replace location cards by actual 3D terrain feature. Those 3D terrain will probably help a lot to determine fortunes/misfortunes/challenge dices depending on the terrain.

If you don't want to mess around with tracking tokens and go a little more abstract, you can try one of my house rule there : www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

Instead of using sketched maps on a piece of paper, you'll be using 3D terrain features.

3rd edition has no real mini support. If you like to play with minis and a somewhat challenging tactical movement in combat then buy 1st or 2nd edition. Both are ok in this respect. They are not nearly as good as Savage World miniature combat, but you get used to their flaws and in the end if everyone knows the rules tactical combat is quite fun.

3rd edition is too detailed for bigger combats (20+ participants) except you use 80% cheesy one hit minions. 3rd edition is more about different options for a single character than about precise movement and tactical squad play. (There are not even weapon ranges in yards, just short, medium etc.) 3rd edtion has also many extensive micromanagement rules which is not suited for newbies (IMO). So I would heartily recommend previous editions, which also have the advantage that you get alot more support material and adventures.

Doompaw Of Clan Skryre said:

If you want wargame-like combat, then 3rd edition might be the worst choice. I'm not sure about 2nd edition, but I believe 1st edition did support wargame-like miniature movement (but nobody ever used it of course). And it's the edition that was closest to the original WFB (well, WFB 3rd edition, which was completely different from later editions).

I think your biggest hurdle is going to be the abstract movement of 3rd edition. You don't move a specific number of squares, inches, hexes or yards, you move into or out of an engagement, or you move from close range to medium range. I love it, but you might not. Maybe it can be replaced or enhanced by something more tactical.

superklaus said:

i don't know about 1st edition but 2ed really didn't seem that tactically challenging, compared to anything. you roll precentile dice to attack, you miss a lot. so do the bad guys. you can put everything on a square grid mat but i don't feel like that makes 2ed tactical. not trying to pick a fight. just played a lot of HERO and that felt tactical. know nothing about savage worlds. 3rd ed D&D seems more tactical. they clearly want you to waste all your money on minis. i really like that i don't need to have a single mini for wfrp 3rd. if that means it is not "tactical" then i am 100% good with that.

2nd ed. tactical?

I play WFB as well, and for all that is holy, stay away from 2nd ed. if you want tactics that works.

In WFB you at least hit things, have a flow, and don't have rules just for making up rules.

But as other has said, 3rd ed., the game that brought me back to rpgs after being let down by 2nd ed., does not have the same eye-candy tactical combat like WFB but it does have something else.

And you get your stuff in boxes. Boxes man, cool boxes.

Silverwave said:

Yup thats what im imagining in my head of what I want a warhammer rpg to be for me. I hope when I get it in my hands, it can do what im wishing it to do.

AND....Combat in 3rd edition flow seamlessly and fast. We hardly had any combat last more than 4 rounds, except for one tough boss battle.
and with henchmen rules, rallystep rules, and progress tracker you can easily throw 50 greenskins at the party and they will come out as the winner. That is if you want a epic battle.

Good gaming

(Hmm the forum ate up my last post spat it out and lost it to the warp...)

@ Mal

If thats true, then thats what I want to hear.

and this is just me wishing... but i want my 3 pcs to roleplay as mercenary captains of sorts, where they are in control of up to 10 or so henchmen each. For a total of perhaps 30-ish adventurers. The roleplay would be about navigating the politics of being a mercenary outfit, courting the favor of barons and generals, taking contracts, having to become bandits when there are no wars to be had, just like the Italian Condottieri period. I guess im wanting an rpg about military fantasy as commanders, rather than just the traditional 4 guys "in a dungeon" or "being private investigators" rpg. Although, I dont want a cast of thousands, or pcs that control entire kingdoms. The sweet spot would be like "shadow of the horned rat" pc game, if anyone remembers that one.

Although, i wonder if I can somehow mix wfrp with whfb. Use the rpg for the roleplay parts, and if and when that occasional big battle comes around - convert characters from rpg stats to whfb stats and use the whfb system to settle the outcome.

I guess its sorta like Rogue Trader, but military fantasy, and a smaller scale. Thats the rpg i want to run/play/watch/hear about.

If FFG and GW got together to make an expansion that allowed easy switch between the rpg and tabletop system, this would bridge the gap between the whrp and whfb camps. Of course, no one would have to buy this expansion if they didnt want to. But i think the option to do so would be my newest perfect game dream.

Or am i asking for too much, life isnt that kind.

To Doompaw of clan skryre

I think your last comments about an collaboration between FFG and GW on making a sort of hybrid game between WFB and WFRP will not ever come to fruition. But you shall never say never. But I think GW is paranoid about copyright and such. But on the other hand they have allowed FFG to produce a w40k boardgame.

What you say about a players be in charge of 10 henchmen each, might be to stretch the limit of the rules a bit. I don`t know how that will be like. But I do know that there are some pretty decent rules about handling large combats over at Hammerzeit.

Hammerzeit is a fan site for warhammer 3rd edition. the rules basically let you roll once for all the NPCs in a given combat round (both sides). I used it in the Eye for an eye introductionary modul, and it worked very fine by me.

Other than that the rules are so easy to use that you could easily invent your own rules for mass-scale combat using Donato`s Dice pools for large-scale combats as a base or guidelines. be sure to inlcude a progress tracker.

If you`re going ahead with your plans, please be sure to tell me how it goes, and if you make some own rules please post them at hammerzeit.

Good gaming

Ps: used to play a lot of mordheim, necrumunda and bloodbowl in the old days.

The 1st ed included conversion rules for WFB, albeit they were for 2nd ed WFB, since that was the current version of WFB at the time WFRP was first released. WFB 3rd ed came out shortly afterward and made the conversion more difficult. If anything, additional refinement of WFB over the years makes it more difficult to convert either 1e or 2e PCs and nWFRP is so completely different that it would be extremely difficult to convert PCs to 7th (current) or 8th (released soon) WFB IMO.

As much as I am enjoying playing and running nWFRP, it doesn't sound like it is the right system for what you want to do. Then again, 1e or 2e might not be either. Rather it sounds to me like you want Savage Worlds, which is designed to handle exactly the kind of play you are looking for. Might be easier to just use the Warhammer setting and use SWEX as the rules system.

@mac40k

I have heard good things about savage worlds. On their site, i see the explorers edition for less than $10. Is that all the basic rules? then just add a setting to it? Seems too good a price to be true. Im gonna have to get a copy now. thanks.

Ive also snagged a copy of wfrp 1st edition, but now im gonna have to get a copy of whfb 2nd edition (which i use to have a long time ago, loved that box art)

at this rate, im probly gonna own all 3 editions of wfrp plus a few other rpgs...

One of them will work out for what i want im sure...

The SWEX book is the core rulebook and at $10, it deserves to be in everyone's game library. It contains all the rules needed to play as well as a compact Bestiary with some example creatures. There are several settings available which contain additional optional rules. These are standard sized books. Also available is the Fantasy Companion which isn't a distinct setting, but has the traditional fantasy races templates, expanded rules/options suitable for fantasy campaigns, and an expanded Bestiary. It's about the same size as the SWEX, but is $20. Again, I wouldn't normally recommend SWEX as a system for capturing the feel of WFRP, but for 3 PCs leading a small band of mercenaries going against a horde of Orcs, using only the Warhammer setting as backdrop, it seems to me to be the perfect solution.

as mac40k already said. Savage Worlds Core rulebook is 80 A4 (160 A5) pages and just 10$ and belongs to every real roleplayers book shelf. It has everything you want in an rpg. Point-buy chargen, Feats (called edges), Disadvantages (called hindrances) supports the psychological aspect of roleplaying a specific character VERY well. But there is some crunch to support tactical focus in combat too.

In fact Savage Worlds has the BEST designed tactical system out there. (and its fun and very fast too) For example you can play massive combats of 50+ participants in less than 3h. There is no other rpg system out there which is able to do this. Savage worlds opens up a whole new world of roleplaying possibilities and options.

Eg. Do you want to play an attack of the altdorfer canal guard on a skaven fortress under the city? In 1st-3rd warhammer edition you can only laugh and have to "handwave" it and try to play through very small action in a reasonable time window. (of lets say only 10 participants but not more) Not so in Savage Worlds! There you can let the players be the leaders of the attack AND you can play the whole assault with 50+ participants in say less than 3h. And furthermore, while combat is avoided in many warhammer rulesystems because they dont allow for bigger combat actions per poor design, this is different in Savage Worlds. This game comes from real experts in tabletop gaming (They published the excellent Great Railwars - the skirmish ancestor of Deadlands - and also Showdown) SW supports openly big combats and players do have even several different talents and skills for unit command and improving the abilities of allied troops.

Another beautiful thing in Savage Worlds is that vehicle combat, cavalry rules and rules for real mass combat (several thousand participants - which would even a little bit too big for the normal tactical rules) are already included in the 10$ SWEX booklet. They allow for seamless integration of vehicles and mounted combat in normal games. Eg. you want to include some steamtanks, a charge of a unit knight panthers, dwarfen gyrcopters or skaven doom wheels in your game? No problem with Savage Worlds. Want to play a war scenario of Storm-of-Chaos where you players are the leaders of a mercenary unit with 2 cannons, an auxiliary unit of musketeers which are holding a river bridge against 50 beastmen? No problem in Savage Worlds. Can play that out in less than 3h!

Savage worlds can do everything the traditional Warhammer rule-systems can do (and often better) but the tradtional rulesets cannot do everything Savage Worlds offers. It holds perfectly its promise to be FFF (fast, furious and fun).

There are only 2 backdraws to the whole thing. The first is that you have to spend some time for a conversion of the warhammer stuff to SW. Unfortunately there are not many premade Warhammer - SW conversions out there. The second is that Savage Worlds adventures are typically very cinematic, fast and action oriented with many combats, opponents and helping allies. They are the opposite of Warhammer adventures. So probably you have to do your own adventures. As fast solution sometimes we convert the adventure modules of Hellfrost (which are often quite nice) to the warhammer setting - recently we played the HF module "Pirates of the Crystal Flow" near Marienburg.

savage world is that good eh? I might have to check it out. thanks

Good gaming

superklaus said:

Seeing as Im coming from the WHFB tabletop side of the fence, the Warhammer I know IS "very cinematic, fast and action oriented with many combats". You sold me when you said "mass combat" and "skaven doomwheel".

Thanks for the tip on SW guys... and im getting their fantasy compendium "monster manual" book.

The action card deck looks interesting, should I have gotten that too?

Course im still gonna buy everything i can WHRP 1,2,3 edition for the fluff and shiny-ness.

Doompaw Of Clan Skryre said:

Action deck is just optional and leads to fun results during the game. If you like more randomness in your game then they are fine. We use them but they are not everyones cup of tea. If you want to use some SW books, then I would recommend to buy SWEX and if you are the luxury type of player also the Fantasy Companion. For Warhammer (or other fantasy rpgs) you dont need more. Additonally like the cards, the FC is handy but purely optional. It has only more monster than the core book and more spells. For the beginning the SWEX is full enough.

If you just want to test the game, there is a free test drive pdf on the pinnacle site: (first line, called "test drive v6")

http://www.peginc.com/downloads.html

If you like tactical engagements with a fast, brutal, gory and a choice driven system, checkout HarnMaster.

It's a very good system and easily adapt to WHFRP 1st or 2nd, since they are all 100% system.

There is also BattleLust, the mass combat rules for HarnMaster that will tell you how to run battles with a very high level of detail with incredible speed, all using the some PC/Monster/NPC sheet.