Hey guys! I'm going to be the GM of a homebrew campaign, and I wanted your opinions on well written villains throughout Rokugan, as I feel that there are some really cool characters that my players could go up against that I'm forgetting about. I have read about the Nothing, Fu Leng and Iuchiban but I was wondering if there were any other villains that were interesting!

Definitely check the Imperial histories from 4th edition., they have some interesting historical episodes. The three-way alliance that almost succeeded in making the emperor and Asahime's rebellion were both interesting episodes. Hantei XVI, the Steel Chrysanthemum, is also a character with some potential.

I assume you are looking for supernatural enemies (like agents of Jigoku or Maho practitioners). I believe Moto Tsume is still a thing in the new continuity. Also Kuni Yori is out there being vaguely sinister right now. We got a recent development with Usagi Tsukiko. If you read We Strike First then she might be an interesting antagonist potentially. They all show you how easily heroes can fall to ruinous powers in the setting. Well how heroic Tsukiko is in the story is debatable.

For non-supernatural enemies Kachiko I feel is well written this time around and you can see how she's pulling strings in the background to get what she wants. There's definitely Kolat lurking in the shadows as well.

16 hours ago, phillos said:

I assume you are looking for supernatural enemies (like agents of Jigoku or Maho practitioners). I believe Moto Tsume is still a thing in the new continuity. Also Kuni Yori is out there being vaguely sinister right now. We got a recent development with Usagi Tsukiko. If you read We Strike First then she might be an interesting antagonist potentially. They all show you how easily heroes can fall to ruinous powers in the setting. Well how heroic Tsukiko is in the story is debatable.

For non-supernatural enemies Kachiko I feel is well written this time around and you can see how she's pulling strings in the background to get what she wants. There's definitely Kolat lurking in the shadows as well.

We even know who Master Chrysanthemum is.

I'm always curious how much the average samurai knows about Hantei XVI. In the West we have our villainous kings and emperors (often exaggerated), but while they supposedly had the backing of one or more gods, they didn't have the same divinity as a Rokugani emperor. More importantly, folks such as Richard III, Louis XVI, and Emperor Nero were all replaced with a new dynasty (or Republic), which would be eager to spread tales of their depravities.

But the Son of Heaven is different. You don't talk trash about him, even when he's terrible. Even if everyone knows, and needs to do something about him, it's all kept very polite, and covered by euphemism and knowing nods. Even his successor would want to maintain respect, because you don't want to establish the precedent of speaking ill of the Emperor.

I'm sure dedicated historians have some idea what he was like, but what about the average courtier or bushi?

In the old continuity, they didn't know about it, which is why it was incredibly hard to deal with him when he came back during the War of the Spirits. He returned, and rallied Samurai around him, because he was an emperor, and they didn't know how terrible he had been.

Since the setting is still mostly running on "same as last time except where noted", I'll assume that's still true.

7 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

I'm always curious how much the average samurai knows about Hantei XVI. In the West we have our villainous kings and emperors (often exaggerated), but while they supposedly had the backing of one or more gods, they didn't have the same divinity as a Rokugani emperor. More importantly, folks such as Richard III, Louis XVI, and Emperor Nero were all replaced with a new dynasty (or Republic), which would be eager to spread tales of their depravities.

But the Son of Heaven is different. You don't talk trash about him, even when he's terrible. Even if everyone knows, and needs to do something about him, it's all kept very polite, and covered by euphemism and knowing nods. Even his successor would want to maintain respect, because you don't want to establish the precedent of speaking ill of the Emperor.

I'm sure dedicated historians have some idea what he was like, but what about the average courtier or bushi?

4 hours ago, Myrion said:

In the old continuity, they didn't know about it, which is why it was incredibly hard to deal with him when he came back during the War of the Spirits. He returned, and rallied Samurai around him, because he was an emperor, and they didn't know how terrible he had been.

Since the setting is still mostly running on "same as last time except where noted", I'll assume that's still true.

I think a combination of both. Since the historians and immediate successors and survivors were unwilling to speak in of the Steel Chrysanthemum, it was easier for him to rally allies to his cause. Had they done more to use his example as a warning about power unchecked, he likely would not have been able to convince honorable Samurai to his banner.

Actually, When it comes to the Hantei XVI, The Hantei and the other Royal Clans simply papered over what he was like, and mentioned him in passing, while quietly expunging the record. Given that the Seppun royal guards are the ones that did him in tells you how bad it got. After that, all of the clans just went along with it because Hantei XVII was very mild mannered and nice comparatively speaking. They acknowledge the few good things he did, thus honoring him, but flat out ignore the rest so smooth things long. No one wants to admit the Hantei line created a complete monster. In my campaign, I had most historians mention a fire in the records that regretfully destroyed most of his histories sadly, so they do try to honor what is known.

This came back to bite them in the ***, later...

In the current setting, I tend to think of Hantei XIV's legacy as something that's the stuff of whispered legend--whispered because you're right, you generally don't talk smack about the Hantei, as it's a good way to get accused of blasphemy or something similar. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that there aren't stories floating around about him, though; after all, the Empire had to put up with him for a fair number of years, so lots of bits and pieces, anecdotes and rumors would have filtered down through families, minor scholars and similar types whose tales couldn't really be quashed, even by official histories. The trouble, of course, is that as we see (mentioned above, in fact) for actual, historical figures like Nero, Caligula, Henry VIII, Richard III, etc. the truth gets distorted, so you end up with more of a historical caricature that, in reality, is not as bad as reality in some respects, and worse than the truth in others. The bottom line is that while I think VERY few people know the truth about Hantei XVI, and most people simply don't want to talk about him, he's probably a well-known historical "boogeyman" with all sorts of lurid stories swirling around his name.

The Rokugani are, after all, people, and people love their stories and tales, their rumors and gossip...

Incidentally, I am absolutely stunned that Daigotsu hasn't come up in this thread yet. Love him or hate him, he WAS a major villain in the old setting. In fact, he was probably the single longest-running villain in the game, definitely outlasting Fu Leng (as an on-screen presence, anyway), Iuchiban, Kali-ma and, really, everyone except the Nothing (which has always existed, always will exist, and gets my vote for the coolest, spookiest villain who can absolutely NEVER win, because if it does, the setting just ceases to exist.)

1 hour ago, DGLaderoute said:

Incidentally, I am absolutely stunned that Daigotsu hasn't come up in this thread yet. Love him or hate him, he WAS a major villain in the old setting. In fact, he was probably the single longest-running villain in the game, definitely outlasting Fu Leng (as an on-screen presence, anyway), Iuchiban, Kali-ma and, really, everyone except the Nothing (which has always existed, always will exist, and gets my vote for the coolest, spookiest villain who can absolutely NEVER win, because if it does, the setting just ceases to exist.)

That could be due to a little retconning. In the old setting, I believe there was only one Hantei heir and the Empress was kidnapped by the Bloodspeakers before giving birth to Daigotsu. In the new timeline, there are two Hantei heirs. And it would appear that the younger one is currently the preferred heir to the throne as well as being connected to Iuchi Shahai. Remains to be seen how this plays out.

2 hours ago, neilcell said:

That could be due to a little retconning. In the old setting, I believe there was only one Hantei heir and the Empress was kidnapped by the Bloodspeakers before giving birth to Daigotsu. In the new timeline, there are two Hantei heirs. And it would appear that the younger one is currently the preferred heir to the throne as well as being connected to Iuchi Shahai. Remains to be seen how this plays out.

Yup, I know this. However, the OP was asking about villains generally, and even mentioned Iuchiban, which suggested they were open to using villains from the old setting. That being the case, Daigotsu is an obvious candidate (and again, I'm surprised no one mentioned him). In the new setting, Daigotsu does not exist. The character that BECAME Daigotsu does; that's Daisetsu, the younger prince. But we have no indication whatsoever that Daisetsu's story arc will ever head in the direction of him becoming Daigotsu.

10 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

But we have no indication whatsoever that Daisetsu's story arc will ever head in the direction of him becoming Daigotsu.

Indeed.

He's arguably just as dangerous as Daigotsu, if not more so, but in a completely different direction.

Diagotsu's threat is a simple process of taint -> corruption -> devotion to Fu Leng -> 'bond-villain' level plots to overthrow the empire, which is a known 'thing' in Rokugan, and is basically just trying to replace the current ruling Kami (or at least his descendants) with the other one.

Daisetsu is something far more insidious: a well-educated, articulate, compassionate samurai, of sufficiently high status people have to listen to him, who thinks the fundamental social structure of the Celestial Order is wrong and might well decide to do something about it. It'll be interesting to see how Master Chrysanthemum reacts when/if he becomes aware of his new Emperor's opinions...

14 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

It is EXTREMELY unlikely that there aren't stories floating around about him, though; after all, the Empire had to put up with him for a fair number of years, so lots of bits and pieces, anecdotes and rumors would have filtered down through families, minor scholars and similar types whose tales couldn't really be quashed, even by official histories. The trouble, of course, is that as we see (mentioned above, in fact) for actual, historical figures like Nero, Caligula, Henry VIII, Richard III, etc. the truth gets distorted, so you end up with more of a historical caricature that, in reality, is not as bad as reality in some respects, and worse than the truth in others. The bottom line is that while I think VERY few people know the truth about Hantei XVI, and most people simply don't want to talk about him, he's probably a well-known historical "boogeyman" with all sorts of lurid stories swirling around his name.

Agreed with the slight observation that unlike, say, Nero or Richard III, the rumours and stories are circulating whilst the same dynasty is on the throne. Richard III makes out extremely badly in the most famous 'history' we have of him because - not to put too fine a point on it - Shakespeare wrote his history under the reign of the dynasty who were the 'rebels' whilst Richard was at the time the 'legitimate king' (by virtue of having the uncomfortable chair and expensive hat, if nothing else). So anyone not wanting a certain short-tempered redhead to arrange a really, really close haircut had to paint him as the unquestionable villain.

Meanwhile in Rokugan, there has only ever been one bloodline on the throne, and there's never even really been ' different branches of royalty ' in the way you see in real history because of the rather sensible tradition of de-Hantei-ing whoever doesn't become the heir and parcelling them off into the Miya, Otomo or Seppun.

So whilst there will be stories, they will definitely be short on detail, and frankly the closer you get to the centre of power, the less likely anyone is to mention him. Rokugan is big on airbrushing history, much like when Hantei Yugozohime was killed by gaijin cannon-fire at White Stag passed away peacefully in her sleep after NOTHING WHATSOEVER HAPPENED.

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Daisetsu is something far more insidious: a well-educated, articulate, compassionate samurai, of sufficiently high status people have to listen to him, who thinks the fundamental social structure of the Celestial Order is wrong and might well decide to do something about it.

This was Daigotsu's thing too, he just had a lot more explicit predestination due to the Taint he had.

On 2/4/2020 at 5:59 PM, The Grand Falloon said:

I'm always curious how much the average samurai knows about Hantei XVI. In the West we have our villainous kings and emperors (often exaggerated), but while they supposedly had the backing of one or more gods, they didn't have the same divinity as a Rokugani emperor. More importantly, folks such as Richard III, Louis XVI, and Emperor Nero were all replaced with a new dynasty (or Republic), which would be eager to spread tales of their depravities.

But the Son of Heaven is different. You don't talk trash about him, even when he's terrible. Even if everyone knows, and needs to do something about him, it's all kept very polite, and covered by euphemism and knowing nods. Even his successor would want to maintain respect, because you don't want to establish the precedent of speaking ill of the Emperor.

I'm sure dedicated historians have some idea what he was like, but what about the average courtier or bushi?

I would compare him to Pope Benedict 9 (if the accounts against him are to believed, he was on par with Nero). The medieval Popes of Europe have a lot in common with the Rokugani Emperor - very divine, you risk your very soul by speaking out against him.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

So whilst there will be stories, they will definitely be short on detail, and frankly the closer you get to the centre of power, the less likely anyone is to mention him. Rokugan is big on airbrushing history, much like when Hantei Yugozohime was killed by gaijin cannon-fire at White Stag passed away peacefully in her sleep after NOTHING WHATSOEVER HAPPENED.

I'd suggest that when anyone does talk about the Steel Chrysanthemum openly, it's in that particular Rokugani manner of s**t-talking:

Ah, yes, Hantei XVI--now there is a prominent Emperor, Doji-sama.

Indeed, Yasuki-sama, his glorious person left an indelible mark on the Empire. None shall soon, or ever, forget him.

All of this being said with somewhat significant glances and sidelong looks, and slight accents on particular words. Everyone knows what's being said, even though it's not being said.

Going off on a different direction for a moment, it occurs to me that Kyoso no Oni may be an interesting situation. In the old continuity, late on it was revealed that she was actually a facet of the Kail-ma and an avatar of the destroyer deity of the Ivory Kingdoms. In the new continuity, she is pointily absent from the Shadowlands Supplement. The new Pat of Waves will be giving more detail on the Ivory Kingdoms so I can't help but wonder if the villainess will have her true nature come to light sooner rather than later.

It might be worth adding Isawa Akuma to the list of villains. There's a certain level of power inherent in the shugenja that summoned one of the Oni Lords.