Has anyone used the DT-57's ability to be fired in melee to give him critical 1 for his other lightsaber? Would you consider it inferior to just using both lightsabers to get two red dice?

I hope this is OK, resurrecting an old thread, but it seemed the only dedicated post for this card.

I've been playing with my 8-year-old son, so I'm largely playing against myself here, but we tried this one out with Grievous for the first time yesterday. Am I using this correctly? We were doing things like have Grievous move towards an enemy, get his relentless attack with the blaster, then move again to melee range and attack with sabers. If that's right, then it seems like a key card for ol' Greves, right? Because even if he's not doing a lot of damage with it, he's harrying the enemies and potentially dropping some suppression on them. Is there ever a good argument for NOT outfitting him with the Annihilator?

Thanks!

10 minutes ago, Vomikronnoxis said:

I hope this is OK, resurrecting an old thread, but it seemed the only dedicated post for this card.

I've been playing with my 8-year-old son, so I'm largely playing against myself here, but we tried this one out with Grievous for the first time yesterday. Am I using this correctly? We were doing things like have Grievous move towards an enemy, get his relentless attack with the blaster, then move again to melee range and attack with sabers. If that's right, then it seems like a key card for ol' Greves, right? Because even if he's not doing a lot of damage with it, he's harrying the enemies and potentially dropping some suppression on them. Is there ever a good argument for NOT outfitting him with the Annihilator?

Thanks!

It's important to clarify that Grievous cannot use Relentless to attack after both moves. Take into account that Relentless gives him a free attack action and each action can only be used once during an activation, with the move action as the only exception.

Regardig the gun, the argument for not taking it could be that the greater potential for Grievous is in melee so that's what you'll try to do with him. So you'll be spending 12 points on a weapon that you'll use probably just once durng the game, while he is approaching the enemy. If you have the points to spare, it's a good option to have in my opinion.

1 minute ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

It's important to clarify that Grievous cannot use Relentless to attack after both moves. Take into account that Relentless gives him a free attack action and each action can only be used once during an activation, with the move action as the only exception.

Regardig the gun, the argument for not taking it could be that the greater potential for Grievous is in melee so that's what you'll try to do with him. So you'll be spending 12 points on a weapon that you'll use probably just once durng the game, while he is approaching the enemy. If you have the points to spare, it's a good option to have in my opinion.

As a versatile weapon, the ability to fire out of melee is fantastic as well. There have been many times where I would engage Grievous with an enemy to weaken them with one lightsaber and use Arsenal to attack my real target at range. It splits one good attack into two somewhat weak attacks, but there are many instances where you would use his armament a lot more than once per game.

Even though the dice on the Annihilator are worse than on his Lightsabers, he averages better damage in melee with 1 lightsaber and the Annihilator thanks to Critical 1.

On 8/24/2020 at 9:32 AM, Lochlan said:

Even though the dice on the Annihilator are worse than on his Lightsabers, he averages better damage in melee with 1 lightsaber and the Annihilator thanks to Critical 1.

No mods:
-4.16 average hits with 1x Saber + Annihilator
-4.00 average hits with 2x saber

1x surge token
-4.42 average hits with 1x Saber + Annihilator
-4.65 average hits with 2x saber

1x aim token
-5.13 average hits with 1x Saber + Annihilator
-5.06 average hits with 2x saber

1x aim token 1x surge token
-5.46 average hits with 1x Saber + Annihilator
-5.68 average hits with 2x saber

So no not always better. If you have a surge token (and my grevious usually does) then 2x sabers is better. If you have no surge then saber + annihilator is better

I would never take Grievous without his gun. Relentless gives you 1-2 free attacks while moving him up into position. I haven't use the gun along with 1 saber at the same target, but I have used hunter and splitting the gun as a ranged attack and strike with 1 saber in melee. Either to gain an aim for the saber or other way around. If the target that I am engaged with either have too strong a defence (Jedi with 2-3 dodges for example) or low hp like 2 models from a corp unit, being able to shoot out of melee is great for not wasting his attacks. 4 dice with crit + pierce is pretty much a guaranteed wound on non pierce immune targets.

On 1/22/2020 at 11:26 PM, Parker Pauley said:

Has anyone used the DT-57's ability to be fired in melee to give him critical 1 for his other lightsaber? Would you consider it inferior to just using both lightsabers to get two red dice?

I dont bother taking the ranged weapon on Grievous. Because its only range 2 and spending 12 points for a ranged weapon I may not even use once doesnt seem like that good of a deal to me.

I prefer using tenacity with him to get the extra red die on both lightsaber attacks. My goal is usually to get him into melee ASAP.

I believe in keeping Grievous as cheap as possible (tenacity is a must have on him though). I would use a cheaper commander altogether if droids had one.

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

I dont bother taking the ranged weapon on Grievous. Because its only range and spending 12 points for a ranged weapon I may not even use once doesnt seem like that good of a deal to me.

I prefer using tenacity with him to get the extra red die on both lightsaber attacks. My goal is usually to get him into melee ASAP.

I believe in keeping Grievous as cheap as possible (tenacity is a must have on him though). I would use a cheaper commander altogether if droids had one.

Yeah I would say I only equip his gun maybe 25% of the time. There are definitely games where I miss having it for like 1 turn, but most of the time Im getting him into melee pretty quickly

On 8/24/2020 at 11:32 AM, Lochlan said:

Even though the dice on the Annihilator are worse than on his Lightsabers, he averages better damage in melee with 1 lightsaber and the Annihilator thanks to Critical 1.

I dont think you factored in tenacity though.

IMO theres no reason not to take tenacity on Grievous because he gets double the benefit from it.

I dont think annihilator + lightsaber ever does more damage than lightsaber x2 + tenacity on both

I just dont think the ranged weapon is all that great.

9 minutes ago, Khobai said:

I dont think you factored in tenacity though.

IMO theres no reason not to take tenacity on Grievous because he gets double the benefit from it.

I dont think annihilator + lightsaber is as good as lightsaber x2 + tenacity on both

Unless you are in melee with multiple units, you are only forming a single attack pool that contains both lightsabers, so you only get a single red die added to the pool, not one red die per weapon.

Quote

Unless you are in melee with multiple units, you are only forming a single attack pool that contains both lightsabers, so you only get a single red die added to the pool, not one red die per weapon.

Even with 1 extra red dice im pretty sure lightsaber x2 + tenacity beats lightsaber + annihilator

Doesnt really change anything.

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

I prefer using tenacity with him to get the extra red die on both lightsaber attacks.

Only if you are somehow in melee with two different units and split his attacks.

7 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Even with 1 extra red dice im pretty sure lightsaber x2 + tenacity beats lightsaber + annihilator

Doesnt really change anything.

You can use tenacity in both cases as the annihilator is still a melee weapon and can be used in the melee attack pool to gain tenacity

13 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Only if you are somehow in melee with two different units and split his attacks.

I got

4.75 hits with x2 lightsaber + tenacity (only counted once)

4.15 hits for x1 lightsaber + annihilator

seems better to me. so im definitely not sold on the ranged weapon.

of course grievous can take the annihilator and tenacity and it would be better yet. but thats more points than I like to spend on Grievous. I think hes fine with just tenacity and aggressive tactics. thats all I run him with. hes already too expensive with just those two upgrades.

as soon as droids get a cheaper commander im dumping grievous so I can take the broken droid tank. barrage with 4 red dice is dumb.

16 minutes ago, Khobai said:

I got

4.75 hits with x2 lightsaber + tenacity (only counted once)

4.15 hits for x1 lightsaber + annihilator

Did you also account for Critical 1 added by the Annihilator? It doesn't seem like it at a glance. In a pool of 8 dice there should be on average 1 surge, so with Critical 1 wouldn't that end up closer to 5.15 hits?

2 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Did you also account for Critical 1 added by the Annihilator? It doesn't seem like it at a glance. In a pool of 8 dice there should be on average 1 surge, so with Critical 1 wouldn't that end up closer to 5.15 hits?

4.15 is right. Without Critical 1 it would average 3.5.

8 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

4.15 is right. Without Critical 1 it would average 3.5.

Ah, okay, hard to tell at a glance without the work being shown.

Edit: I also typically use calculators for statistical analysis and Critical X is hard to account for with the level of stats knowledge I have.

The gun on Grevious is almost as mandatory as saber throw on CVader, it lets you get the maximum value out of relentless and gives you some nice flexibility when in melee.

I think another possible reason you may want to add it to the melee instead of the second saber is if you really need a crit (against some dodge-stacked enemy maybe?). otherwise the difference seems minimal, but it's nice to know the exact numbers.

23 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Ah, okay, hard to tell at a glance without the work being shown.

Edit: I also typically use calculators for statistical analysis and Critical X is hard to account for with the level of stats knowledge I have.

When you're estimating it, it's very close to just having surge to crit given how relatively rare surge results are. Of course, as the dice pool expands to larger and larger numbers, it becomes more difficult to estimate.
But if you're comparing, say, Luke to Obi Wan's saber attacks, they have almost the same average damage given how rare it would be to roll 2 or more surges with Luke.

22 hours ago, Ringmaster80 said:

The gun on Grevious is almost as mandatory as saber throw on CVader, it lets you get the maximum value out of relentless and gives you some nice flexibility when in melee.

I think another possible reason you may want to add it to the melee instead of the second saber is if you really need a crit (against some dodge-stacked enemy maybe?). otherwise the difference seems minimal, but it's nice to know the exact numbers.

saber throw is mandatory on vader because hes only speed 1. the gun is way less mandatory on grievous because hes speed 2. also saber throw is only 5 points not 12 points. Id feel a lot better about taking the gun if it was only 5 points too. 12 points feels overcosted.

I really feel like droids are a swarm army and taking an expensive commander is counter-intuitive towards that end. grievous is unfortunately the cheapest commander they have at the moment and every upgrade you stick on grievous ends up being less B1s you can take.

the gun is certainly useful in some situations but I feel like having two extra B1s is better in most games. the gun doesnt really help me take objectives but two extra B1s makes my units that much harder to erase off the board.

I can definitely see the merits of taking the annihilator but its certainly not mandatory by any stretch. Grievous works perfectly fine without it. Whereas Vader without saber throw doesnt work at all. Vader will never get into melee against a good opponent because they just veto any objective hes good at and then stay more than 10" away from Vader and he cant do anything all game except throw his saber around a few times until he either gets shot to death or has to spend the rest of the game hiding. Its pretty sad. Fortunately Grievous being speed 2+relentless makes him way better than Vader at getting into melee.

I agree on what you said about vader and saber throw.

But i don't think 2 b1s are worth losing the gun, because it gives Grievous some more flexibility and it adds something CIS lists don't really have now: ranged pierce. I guess it's a matter of preference, i just would never leave home without it.

Regarding the 5 vs 12 point cost, maybe the speed-2+scale on GG , the critical 1(usefull to get past cover) and the versatile keyword are what makes the gun cost so mutch more, although is harder to tell how mutch saber throw should cost (in fact, it was changed form 10 iirc) because , while it's used mostly on vader, it's not a character-specific upgrade.

I like the gun on a speed 2 unit. Maybe he doesn't need it the same as Vader, but with relentless you can do shoot and scoot. For example you move up and trigger relentless for an attack then move again in behind some cover. With speed 2 you reach quite a bit.

12p is of course nothing to ignore, but get 2 shots of per game and it's worth it Imo

I really feel like the gun on Grievous is key to getting him to play well.

I can't speak for competitive events, but I play CIS almost exclusively now, and GG is very good at rushing in from out of sight, weakening at target with his lightsaber and holding them hostage while he a harasses or destroys other units nearby with the gun. It's actually pretty thematic.

One game in particular that comes to mind. The opponent had Krennic, DTs, shores and a mortar team all grouped up behind cover forming a pretty mean gunline on his side.



I moved grievous up to some LoS blocking terrain round 1, and at the end of round 2, after everything else had activated, I rushed him over the terrain and into a Melee with a group of shores, striking the shore with a saber reducing them to 2 minis and versatile shot at a nearby unit. Next round his 1 pip. I was able to delay his activation until one of those units had activated, then disengaged, moved into melee with that unit, split the attack again, and then followed the whole thing with a windmill killing off most of the stuff over there.

The B2s and dekkas were able to move up and start tossing HA blasts and suppression into the units not engaged while the B1s hunkered down to capture objectives.

If you withdraw from melee you cannot use any other actions.