I keep saying the best comparison to an N-1 is an RZ-1 (but non-force v1 is fair). How they feel on the table is kind of different, but on paper they're a fairly clean comparison. Same red dice. Defensive statline works out about pretty similar over time. They both have a bonus action, and are confined to a relatively limited set of moves in order to get their bonus action. It's the blues on an RZ-1, and the Throttled-Up moves on an N-1. A-Wing has the drawback of stress for their bonus action, but they've got a lot more practical mobility options overall. N-1 gains the benefit of being hard to push damage on with small attacks in a 1-on-1 situation (once more than 1 or 2 ships attacks, the gap is closed). Upgrades are probably a hair in the N-1 favor, but Torpedoes are a lot more expensive than missiles, so the squadbuilding is trickier.

In that light, generic N-1 seem fairly overpriced. 29 for a Phoenix vs 33 for a Bravo. Initiative matters, IMHO, so incorporating that I really think Bravos should probably be in the 30-31 price range.

@Ronu Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Please allow me to add some additional context to the post above, as I did not set up the whole of it for expedience... And it still took too long lol 🙄 😝

The batrep was mostly issued here to demonstrate the speed of the numbers break down. To be certain I had a great deal of experience with lists similar to this one as well as experience against the opponent and his list that he was still learning. In all truth, as he was getting ready for Outryder, the only way I 'cheated' was actually to coach him on two turns back to correct action pair selection (two focus over evade, to which my second casualty was attributed as well as a separate missed shot anyway) and a coordinate roll he had not considered/seen to net him a missile shot and chase position while preventing him from blocking himself. Nor does it include the few blocks that I got off rather sneakily besides. Sadly, the Force does not care about such things as blocks. Neither does coordinate it would seem lol 😅

I like to assume perfect play is a goal of practice games like this, as well as list testing. And as the math of the situation was clearly not to my favor from the list building phase, there was no reason to struggle needlessly. Once combat began he was dealing 7+ damage a round, to my roughly 3. Broken up attack arcs and action denial or not, this round went to stats.

You may be very pleased to know also that I aggressively used the T-roll twice in this game to be in nice flanking positions and eating obstacles the whole while, catching him very much off guard and out of pocket when I did, as that is the only way I actually did get my one well earned kill. It was crazy, but it worked 😎 . Though I could have in all cases gained far better positions, action economy, and time on target, if I merely had a K-turn instead, with it's much cleaner geometry. While I've never done much batrep wise, but for other variations I've played check out the original thread if you haven't already, lots of fun stuff in there. 😁

I will upload a picture here in a bit so you can see that it was also anything but a straight joust 👍 also as definite proof that 6 yellow tridents are beautiful 😄

Your point of comparison is not without some merit. I'm assuming you meant TIE/fo though? That would be the closer I think, yes? A Imp basic TIE is a third cheaper and does not have many other comparison points even after a shield? Also if we have to use up it's only upgrade slot, to modify it's cost and stat line. I wasn't trying to pick the V1 out of say spite, (okay a little lol) but on two major items: Cost, and Objective.

Both N and V are 'fast ordinance carriers'. Both are priced in the low 30s. Even were I to have made the comparison to the non-Force using Baron, as Fig is fair to protest and I acknowledge in the previous introduction, with all other points the same my little comparison would switch to the V still winning 9-1 down the page, and being five points cheaper, and not two more expensive.

Ultimately. Point for point. The V is strictly better, and trying to do the same thing, at almost the same cost.

I like and agree to your comment about an in-and-out fighter nature. As I've discussed previously in the old deep dive, it very much is exactly that. Unfortunately it is not alone in that nature and even there suffers a losing race against it's type. As, (posted literally while I've been typing 😂 ) @theBitterFig mentions the RZ1 wants this as an objective. So does the RZ2, TIE/sf, Firespray, Upsilon, Lambda, and ARC-170. Arguments to be made for others to be sure. They all go a little bit differently about it. But most of those have the clear cover of a rear gun to make it work. This one item is the clear line between the success and popularity of the two varieties of A-wings themselves for instance. Because as it turns out, disengage is a tactical move to buy time for a single ship, but does not constitute a game plan overall strategy by itself. Second edition got right that arcs matter. Which means butt shots matter. Sad for me that I do not have those lol.

This was better though back when you could Regen a little on the way out. Then you might actually survive your disengage, and maybe even your reengage. Prices now prohibit that unfortunately as I discussed awhile back but I'll give it another go at some point.

While I've got Fig on the line about it though. The RZ1 isn't a bad pick for comparison at all either. Objective: fast ordinance carrier OR interceptor. It gets both, which makes it a bit better here as well. It can work it's(way better) maneuverability and action economy and just jam out with primes all day. But the defensive stat still goes clearly to the A over the N. Being able to get that third evade is just so good. Having played a lot of 6xA+CS of late, I have WAY more faith in the defense of a Focused A, than a Focused+Evading N-1. Radically more because I'll be able to get a Focused A, more consistent by miles than a Evading N-1 anyway. The conditions and constraints to get it on paper look nice, in game they don't work well. It's one of the reasons why I regret not listening to one local long ago when he told me Juke was a Banana Trap 😒 Smart dude he is.

More, your right about the cost. Like on our last thread I said I wouldn't be bothered by bananas at least at 33. But then A bunch of things got break drops and now we're back to too high still. Though I'm becoming more and more convinced that what the ship needs to be realized is not a points change, bit something else entirely. I just don't know what. Plenty of ideas but that's it.

2 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

@Ronu Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Please allow me to add some additional context to the post above, as I did not set up the whole of it for expedience... And it still took too long lol 🙄 😝

The batrep was mostly issued here to demonstrate the speed of the numbers break down. To be certain I had a great deal of experience with lists similar to this one as well as experience against the opponent and his list that he was still learning. In all truth, as he was getting ready for Outryder, the only way I 'cheated' was actually to coach him on two turns back to correct action pair selection (two focus over evade, to which my second casualty was attributed as well as a separate missed shot anyway) and a coordinate roll he had not considered/seen to net him a missile shot and chase position while preventing him from blocking himself. Nor does it include the few blocks that I got off rather sneakily besides. Sadly, the Force does not care about such things as blocks. Neither does coordinate it would seem lol 😅

I like to assume perfect play is a goal of practice games like this, as well as list testing. And as the math of the situation was clearly not to my favor from the list building phase, there was no reason to struggle needlessly. Once combat began he was dealing 7+ damage a round, to my roughly 3. Broken up attack arcs and action denial or not, this round went to stats.

You may be very pleased to know also that I aggressively used the T-roll twice in this game to be in nice flanking positions and eating obstacles the whole while, catching him very much off guard and out of pocket when I did, as that is the only way I actually did get my one well earned kill. It was crazy, but it worked 😎 . Though I could have in all cases gained far better positions, action economy, and time on target, if I merely had a K-turn instead, with it's much cleaner geometry. While I've never done much batrep wise, but for other variations I've played check out the original thread if you haven't already, lots of fun stuff in there. 😁

I will upload a picture here in a bit so you can see that it was also anything but a straight joust 👍 also as definite proof that 6 yellow tridents are beautiful 😄

Your point of comparison is not without some merit. I'm assuming you meant TIE/fo though? That would be the closer I think, yes? A Imp basic TIE is a third cheaper and does not have many other comparison points even after a shield? Also if we have to use up it's only upgrade slot, to modify it's cost and stat line. I wasn't trying to pick the V1 out of say spite, (okay a little lol) but on two major items: Cost, and Objective.

Both N and V are 'fast ordinance carriers'. Both are priced in the low 30s. Even were I to have made the comparison to the non-Force using Baron, as Fig is fair to protest and I acknowledge in the previous introduction, with all other points the same my little comparison would switch to the V still winning 9-1 down the page, and being five points cheaper, and not two more expensive.

Ultimately. Point for point. The V is strictly better, and trying to do the same thing, at almost the same cost.

I like and agree to your comment about an in-and-out fighter nature. As I've discussed previously in the old deep dive, it very much is exactly that. Unfortunately it is not alone in that nature and even there suffers a losing race against it's type. As, (posted literally while I've been typing 😂 ) @theBitterFig mentions the RZ1 wants this as an objective. So does the RZ2, TIE/sf, Firespray, Upsilon, Lambda, and ARC-170. Arguments to be made for others to be sure. They all go a little bit differently about it. But most of those have the clear cover of a rear gun to make it work. This one item is the clear line between the success and popularity of the two varieties of A-wings themselves for instance. Because as it turns out, disengage is a tactical move to buy time for a single ship, but does not constitute a game plan overall strategy by itself. Second edition got right that arcs matter. Which means butt shots matter. Sad for me that I do not have those lol.

This was better though back when you could Regen a little on the way out. Then you might actually survive your disengage, and maybe even your reengage. Prices now prohibit that unfortunately as I discussed awhile back but I'll give it another go at some point.

While I've got Fig on the line about it though. The RZ1 isn't a bad pick for comparison at all either. Objective: fast ordinance carrier OR interceptor. It gets both, which makes it a bit better here as well. It can work it's(way better) maneuverability and action economy and just jam out with primes all day. But the defensive stat still goes clearly to the A over the N. Being able to get that third evade is just so good. Having played a lot of 6xA+CS of late, I have WAY more faith in the defense of a Focused A, than a Focused+Evading N-1. Radically more because I'll be able to get a Focused A, more consistent by miles than a Evading N-1 anyway. The conditions and constraints to get it on paper look nice, in game they don't work well. It's one of the reasons why I regret not listening to one local long ago when he told me Juke was a Banana Trap 😒 Smart dude he is.

More, your right about the cost. Like on our last thread I said I wouldn't be bothered by bananas at least at 33. But then A bunch of things got break drops and now we're back to too high still. Though I'm becoming more and more convinced that what the ship needs to be realized is not a points change, bit something else entirely. I just don't know what. Plenty of ideas but that's it.

No I actually meant the TIE/ln for the comparison. 31 points with the shield upgrade for an I2 and a very similar dial. Still sounds like more than one matchup is needed to really see limits but that’s a personal assessment.

18 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

While I've got Fig on the line about it though. The RZ1 isn't a bad pick for comparison at all either. Objective: fast ordinance carrier OR interceptor. It gets both, which makes it a bit better here as well. It can work it's(way better) maneuverability and action economy and just jam out with primes all day. But the defensive stat still goes clearly to the A over the N. Being able to get that third evade is just so good. Having played a lot of 6xA+CS of late, I have WAY more faith in the defense of a Focused A, than a Focused+Evading N-1. Radically more because I'll be able to get a Focused A, more consistent by miles than a Evading N-1 anyway. The conditions and constraints to get it on paper look nice, in game they don't work well. It's one of the reasons why I regret not listening to one local long ago when he told me Juke was a Banana Trap 😒 Smart dude he is.

That's fair.

On paper, things do work out pretty similar for the defensive stats. The dice calcs are a great sandbox.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=giAAAAAAAAAA&a1=AgMAAA&a2=AgMAAA&a3=AgMAAA

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=AgMAAA&a2=AgMAAA&a3=AgMAAA

However, one thing the A-Wing certainly has is highroll potential. On some of these edge-case ships, where the squad maybe isn't the strongest squad, you've sometimes got to put yourself in a position for some luck to carry the day. In any game with randomness, you've got to be aware of and play to your outs.

//

And then that dial. I had an absolutely miserable game playing with some N-1s against some Nantex; I think I got maybe two shots with my N-1s the entire game. When they were previewed, there was a lot of "Defender 2.0" to the buzz about them, but they really aren't. The awkwardness of turning around on a low-init N-1 is real, and it seems really easy for these to just not click on the table.

15 hours ago, Ronu said:

No I actually meant the TIE/ln for the comparison. 31 points with the shield upgrade for an I2 and a very similar dial. Still sounds like more than one matchup is needed to really see limits but that’s a personal assessment.

I really just don't see anything useful in that comparison. TIE/ln misses the boost, doesn't have access to any bonus action effects, and ultimately flies--not just a little--but incredibly differently. Add in that the Scyk and TIE/fo are both the same statline as the shielded TIE/ln, but at 25 points.

53 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That's fair.

On paper, things do work out pretty similar for the defensive stats. The dice calcs are a great sandbox.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=giAAAAAAAAAA&a1=AgMAAA&a2=AgMAAA&a3=AgMAAA

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=AgMAAA&a2=AgMAAA&a3=AgMAAA

However, one thing the A-Wing certainly has is highroll potential. On some of these edge-case ships, where the squad maybe isn't the strongest squad, you've sometimes got to put yourself in a position for some luck to carry the day. In any game with randomness, you've got to be aware of and play to your outs.

//

And then that dial. I had an absolutely miserable game playing with some N-1s against some Nantex; I think I got maybe two shots with my N-1s the entire game. When they were previewed, there was a lot of "Defender 2.0" to the buzz about them, but they really aren't. The awkwardness of turning around on a low-init N-1 is real, and it seems really easy for these to just not click on the table.

I really just don't see anything useful in that comparison. TIE/ln misses the boost, doesn't have access to any bonus action effects, and ultimately flies--not just a little--but incredibly differently. Add in that the Scyk and TIE/fo are both the same statline as the shielded TIE/ln, but at 25 points.

So for me when I look at the N-1 I suppose I look at it from a Dial outward perspective. Which is why I lean towards the TIE Fighter with a shield over the FO though admittedly forgot about the Syck though even that from a dial isn’t quite close enough for me personally after looking at it again.

The N-1’s ability is a perk more than a reliable source of action economy unlike how a defender makes use of the same ability. The boost allows it to be a better blocker but the LN’s ability to take an evade naturally is a bit of an offset to the actions that will likely be taken during a match. Since both ships will just about always focus unless a need to do a barrel roll or boost is required or they are doing a K Turn/T-roll. The other thing I look at is if it does a k-Turn or T-roll is how many places can it go? A TIE has 2 places it ends up similar to the N-1. How they get to those spots is quite different but still similar spots.

The FO has a similar skill set though an overall better dial and lower cost 26 for it’s I2 vs 33 on the N-1.

Though something else just kinda clicked and do not ask me why this just hit me. @ForceSensitive let’s look at the N-1 in comparison to an X-wing with the S-foils in a closed position and you’re saying you have no way to open the S-foils. You’re moves to clear stress are slightly different and the N-1 doesn’t have the 4-k. It does get the bonus evade at certain speeds though its only slightly less durable hp wise.

On 2/7/2020 at 12:06 PM, theBitterFig said:

30-31 price range

Same for me here, I’ve tried them with Torps and PS or a Battle Med carrier and they are not terrible but the lists tend to compromise a little too much.

I also always want to make Dinee work, but for 3-4 more you can get Ani/Ric and it’s easy to justify those extra points. I’d like her at 34-35

37 minutes ago, FriendofYoda said:

Same for me here, I’ve tried them with Torps and PS or a Battle Med carrier and they are not terrible but the lists tend to compromise a little too much.

I also always want to make Dinee work, but for 3-4 more you can get Ani/Ric and it’s easy to justify those extra points. I’d like her at 34-35

Yeah, makes sense.

If I were to do the whole line:

Bravo 31.

Dinee 36. That's a bit more conservative, but at this price, she'd be 5 cheaper than Ani, which is meaningful, plus going down the same 2 as a Bravo.

Anakin 41.

Ric 42.

Padme 41. The fact that her pilot ability effects anything in her firing arc on every attack to or from anyone is potentially scary, but the effect is small. I'd give her a bit of the "Leia treatment" to get folks to try it, and see how it works out. If it's literally the same cost to bring Padme as established "good" ships, that might be enough to get the ball rolling.

Handmaiden 36. These ones I'd really push. They've got a really neat ability, but they've been so expensive that it hasn't really worked out. 36 points is the Biggs/Blue ratio of 48:40, scaled to a 31 point Bravo, and -1 for the Init reduction.

12 hours ago, Ronu said:

So for me when I look at the N-1 I suppose I look at it from a Dial outward perspective. Which is why I lean towards the TIE Fighter with a shield over the FO though admittedly forgot about the Syck though even that from a dial isn’t quite close enough for me personally after looking at it again.

The N-1’s ability is a perk more than a reliable source of action economy unlike how a defender makes use of the same ability. The boost allows it to be a better blocker but the LN’s ability to take an evade naturally is a bit of an offset to the actions that will likely be taken during a match. Since both ships will just about always focus unless a need to do a barrel roll or boost is required or they are doing a K Turn/T-roll. The other thing I look at is if it does a k-Turn or T-roll is how many places can it go? A TIE has 2 places it ends up similar to the N-1. How they get to those spots is quite different but still similar spots.

Looking at things from a dial perspective, probably the most important move on the TIE's dial is the 1-hard. That's what makes them a great stay-in-and-block ship. N-1s lack that, and particularly with Full Throttle, they're more incentivized to get out of a fight once they aren't immediately useful. Maybe that winds up being a mistake, because N-1s aren't great at getting back into a fight, but they really can't knife-fight like a TIE Fighter or TIE/fo.

Likewise, I don't think the K-Turn/T-Roll reduces neatly to how many final positions are possible. K-Turns and S-Loops are vastly better most of the time. The big difference, at least to me, is that T-Rolls can't really cover anything in front of where your ship's current position was. That makes it a lot harder to use in a lot of cases. Meanwhile, since shops typically fight in lanes, it's a lot easier to find safe landing spots for K-Turns and S-Loops.

Add in the boost. That adds a tonne of options to the N-1 that a TIE Fighter doesn't have.

These ships just move so radically different. The inversion of the 1-speed maneuvers, the incredibly different flip moves, the presence/absence of boost. A lot of things that make TIE/fo a rather solid ship WILL NOT WORK with N-1s. N-1, even ignoring Full Throttle, just do not move in anything close to the same way.

I wanted to give it a few days to sit in my mind about dial based comparison when @Ronu brought it up, as I've not really looked at it from a focus of that angle. I've looked a lot at the dial in other ways, but never much as just a whole. Specific maneuvers, not whole sets.

Interesting choice then. Took some time to mull it over. I'd argue that it would be a bad choice to compare because based on other major differences, it's a lot to stretch to just get the cost right to me, if you see what I'm saying? Like, an Ln doesn't have boost, lock (ord), an inherent shield... Wait, wouldn't you have to give it two copies (illegal I know) to get the comparison to be equal-ish? Taking the strength of the TIE is it's swarm capacity, and towards that it's priced to that goal as a advantage, so to my mind stapling even the one shield to it and raising it's base cost by a third, just to make them comparable in price so you can compare them is a highly inefficient way to do it to me, again if that makes sense? Even if the dial by itself is similar, which it sorta is, there's way more differences to the two. And, I'd still happily steal it's K-turn lol 😒 😅

I guess if I had to pick a dial based comparison to run with, I may be better off using a Zed 95? Similar restricted special moves, and general turning ability. Even if you still have a disparity between top speed (and really, you don't use 5-straight all that often anyway) and blues overall. Though I feel the Zed's blues better handle what it tries to accomplish for itself, more than the ones on a Royal achieve for it's goals.

I'd also use the Zed as a better comparison because of other items like same firepower, agility, Shields, and ordinance. To use your approach, if I start with a Tala Zed, and add a Hull upgrade for only about 20% more(opposed to say the /Ln example), I'm still darn close in cost but I'd say closer over all in capability for comparison. Or for some really fancy modding you could go with Afterburner and Debris Gambit on a Tala, and have an ironic level of similarity between them (for the time they'll likely live anyway) and be only a point different. Which is actually pretty cool to think about. Maybe I should test that too at some point?

@theBitterFig and I agree pretty hard on the dial items he talks about. For blocking boost is good, especially in an opening sequence. But over time 1-hard+any repo is way better. Not that it's a requirement. Many ships can accomplish the goal in other ways like the B-wing with it's 2-K and 1-T, On top of plain 1-straight+roll.

Also on the viability of T-roll as a whole. It had the ability to be very useful, but the how and why are a little different. Not that every move can't be, but for Talons you kind of have to invest something. Consider: Talon roll is the one special maneuver that can't be reversed along the same path. If you S-loop or K-turn at any speed, the matching speed Bank or Straight will get you safely back across the same line as the original move you made, if you didn't have any obstacles in your way on the Special move. Assuming no blocks of course. Talon rolls in the geometry of the game have this nasty habit of offering you positions staring straight at a rock. Obviously not ideal. As mentioned I had to intentionally use this in my last game just to throw off my opponent.

But if you have the ability to manipulate your Talon roll with some additional tricks, it can become extremely, EXTREMELY, good. Like (ta-da!) Anakin feat LimpBizkit rolling. Getting a chance to Barrel Roll before your T-roll, and then since Anakin isn't doing this as an action he can do it again the following round WHILE STILL STRESSED, move into a blue, and then yet ANOTHER roll. Well holy Force friends the possibilities are astounding and you should all race to go launch one of these kids into your next game.

To repeat myself, I fear Anakin's design, while strong, thematic, and overall good, may have negatively hindered the overall ships design.

Further, the ship has a sensor slot. I'm not inherently opposed to this at all. It is one of my favs and realistically there's like three options the N-1 could feasibly fill it with, so not exactly a game breaker. Indeed it's thanks to this slot at all we've got something to work with most of the time with Passive Sensors. But one of those other options is Advanced Sensors. And chances are good that when the N-1 was in design, AdvSen had a very different price. And since it easily gave the whole chassis a way to do what Anakin did, and expounded the potential abuse of Ani himself... Well you see how that could make a difference. So it could have exacerbated the issue.

Worth nothing that an early version of this experiment tried a Tri-ace build with three Nana's, all with AdvSen. It was the only time since the original TIE Phantom that I saw an opponent just give up in trying to figure out where a ship on my side was going to be. And that ship was Ani. Let's just say it's good he's stuck at I4. I partly haven't returned to that concept yet because of the apparent NPE it caused. Even now I confess it may be one of the 'technically' better builds I had in the overall experiment.