11 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Honestly, as much as I would love to see an Avenger, I would prefer to go without rather than start chopping old ships. They're free to take the game that direction, but as I said, if they do then I'm out.

I mean, you do realize the implications of this?

A. You would love to buy the TIE Avenger and support FFG.

B. You won't let the TIE Advanced go.

C. You won't buy another TIE Advanced because you already would have in the last 7 years.

D. You expect FFG to keep producing a ship you won't buy or you'll quit.

E. FFG goes belly up making products you insist having in the market but won't purchase because of some bizarre form of FOMO if it disappears.

F. You're out anyways, cuz FFG goes bankrupt making old ships no one buys and the game is dead.

Do you think having 7 factions worth of ships has hurt sales as well? I myself have basically decided to only purchase 4 out of the 7 factions, due to budget and the fact that I do not play very regularly. So instead of buying everything in a wave like I used to in 1E, I am only buying the factions that I am actually going to play.

Also, if they are smart they will get the Razor Crest out as soon as possible. This is the way.

11 hours ago, TBot said:

Interesting read. Thanks.

Certainly made me nervous at the end...power creep , releasing must have upgrades on ships I dont want...

Hopefully it all works out. Second edition has been fantastic for me so far.

Agreed. I don’t want to see actual power creep appearing again. Second edition has been incredible for the players, and I don’t want that NPE of unplayable ships to come back.

I am ok with a rotating limited format for tournaments to drive sales of ships, both old (buy more of these!) and new (look new toy!).

I am even ok with having ships going out of print for a while. Like, here’s a few production runs but now it’s done for a while. That way they don’t have to keep up all the skus, just the most iconic of the iconic and the latest hotness.

Lastly, they need to keep worlds extended. I’m ok with making other tournament formats hyperspace, because I can play extended at my LGS whenever I want (or epic!) But I really think that they should keep everything in worlds as proof that all the toys are still playable: almost every ship was at worlds 2019 and it was amazing. Don’t make our globally diverse meta the same static thing by a limited format.

This is one of your best blogs yet. It stimulates thoughts and encourages dialogue about the cause and effect of what is ultimately the ultimate NPE; The potential for our beloved game to become fractured or rendered inert through no core design factor, but rather economical feasibility and ensuing managerial decisions made by the owning company. But we're all in this together, and we can bring the game to new heights, and more importantly, keep it solvent, if we embrace that philosophy.

For us veteran players;

1) We must recruit new players. This means growing our community and local scene by veterans taking a break from playing or endorsing a hyper competitive climate, and instead recruiting those who walk by the table and express interest. Capture their attention, and offer to spend a few hours with them on our FLGS casual night. Make their learning, and enjoyment, a priority.

2) We need to embrace new formats. It cannot hope to continue with just 200/6 dogfight, we've been there done that, the game cannot grow with the same people in the same cities playing the same ships. This means the local meta "influencers" play things publicly like Aces High. This means facilitating 6-8 people at a table playing Epic. This means keeping an environment open for a RPG mindset group, who might gravitate towards campaign play like HOTAC or Objectives. or hosting an alternative play format that NO one has never tried. Then we're all students of the game again.

3) Organize, Organize, Organize. FLGS are overwhelmed with the litany of products and events they offer. We have to stoke the fires and take the lead for them. Set up leagues, drafts, tournaments, events etc. Let the shops know when new kits are being offered. Volunteer to lead an event or several. I recently have really embraced this. Even though I will miss out on competing, I recently applied to be a judge the Fort Worth System Open---I'm not a rules veteran, but I figure if I am willing to give it a try I can be a better resource for others and help organize better in the future. I can maybe help continue the momentum in our local scene through my willingness to get out of my comfort zone as a player.

For FFG;

1) They must prevent power creep. If they fail to reign in power creep, several threats emerge; veteran players will run roughshod over new recruits, ultimately discouraging many new people from staying with the game. Veteran players who are faction specialists in the Original Trilogy and see other factions that they have zero desire to buy into just keep getting new and more powerful elements, will eventually shed their collections and play something else.

2) Reduce complexity. it cannot be emphasized enough; The game must be easy to understand so it can be enjoyed more sociably . This fundamental tenet is what saved D&D, as 5th edition exploded with player base growth once accessibility and ease of play loosened from the hyper precision of Warhammer 40kish 4e. New players take weeks, if not months, to wrap their brains around basics such as the System Phase, or Initiative Sweep ability effects like Biggs. Try finding 10 people in your local scene who can easily articulate the ability queue, or keep up with the latest Rules Reference (40 pages!!!!) .... it can become somewhat daunting. Don't even get started on the debacle of the app.

3) Develop easily attainable official new product offerings that are high margin, and allow for a bit more personal customization of squads. The card packs, damage decks and plastic templates are a good start. How about some medium colored bases? Cardboard faction specific design token sets? Or the opposite, cardboard dial counters to reduce the high volume of hodgepodge components such as charges, shields, hull, and like what was done for Huge ships? A new mat? How many Outer Rim sets sold for those new dice? Card art sleeves for the new factions? Look at the innovation of Etsy merchants. There's a market. Also if you're are going to release 1.0 reprints (which you cannot just abandon) that are already plentiful on the secondary market, do high value ships in VERY limited quantities with new paintjobs to start to keep overhead low, WITH NEW TITLES, PILOTS AND CONFIGURATIONS instead of pure 1.0 reprint. Veterans will scarf up one or two much more readily, and you can always release those cards in follow-up packs next cycle or go with the traditional sculpt and release later after gauging demand. Get iconic characters in other ships where canonical instances apply.

4) Innovation . The changes to gas clouds and the introduction of deplete offer new challenges. Need to be careful bringing too many things into the mix, but look at how they changed tractor rules; That was something they did within an existing framework. Imagine what else they could introduce; What if when taking an Ion, the ionized player could elect to take a deplete token in place of executing a ion maneuver next turn? Or while stressed, a ship can still elect to perform a red manuever at a cost of one damage? Does that help large base ships now be a bit more viable with time on target? These are the sorts of things that can be looked at.

5) 2 New Factions ; Yup, I said it. Bring on KOTOR. I won't buy into prequel factions, but I sure as heck will grab an Ebon Hawk or a Fury Class interceptor. My wallet shudders at this possibility. The original 3 faction players also need new ships. The Mandalorian, new season of Rebels and maybe Kenobi should help here immensely.

All of this is just me thinking aloud on two cups of coffee... great blog that provoked analysis of the sausage making parts of the game as a business, and how we can create new dishes with said sausage.

13 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I mean, you do realize the implications of this?

A. You would love to buy the TIE Avenger and support FFG.

B. You won't let the TIE Advanced go.

C. You won't buy another TIE Advanced because you already would have in the last 7 years.

D. You expect FFG to keep producing a ship you won't buy or you'll quit.

E. FFG goes belly up making products you insist having in the market but won't purchase because of some bizarre form of FOMO if it disappears.

F. You're out anyways, cuz FFG goes bankrupt making old ships no one buys and the game is dead.

Well, as long as we're arguing using hyperbole and strawmen,

A. Star Wars fan hears about X-Wing and decides to look into it.

B. Star Wars fan sees people playing with his favorite ships and is excited.

C. Star Wars fan discovers that those particular ships are 3-4 years old and not available anymore nor ever again.

D. Star Wars fan decides against buying into X-Wing and swears vengeance against FFG.

E. X-Wing loses players through natural attrition faster than new players replace them, and the game dies.

F. Star Wars fan uses vast wealth and influence to sue FFG and force courts to rule against them.

G. FFG goes bankrupt and no one ever gets new content for any FFG game, because the company itself is dead.

H. JJ48 blames these events on the Scum faction.

Kidding aside, no one's saying that old product needs to be produced as much or as often as newer product. It's just that so long as we're still getting new players, and especially as long as the old product is still legal, it should be offered at least occasionally. A patient newbie should be able to obtain it without back-alley dealing at 3 AM.

10 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

All of this is just me thinking aloud on two cups of coffee... great blog that provoked analysis of the sausage making parts of the game as a business, and how we can create new dishes with said sausage.

I liked everything you said until the new factions. I really don’t care for that idea because I’m concerned that will spread their logistics way too thin and we will have challenges for all factions being able to purchase their ships.

As far as the player responsibility: a lot of that fits my player base perfectly. We’ve spent a year investing time into our LGS and have a growing xwing scene. We have everyone from 1.0 Adepticon competitors to folks who literally took on their first non-kitchen table game with the app this week (he told me his very first game of 200 points was that day: had done quick build at less than 8 before)

We are doing alternate game mode last week of the month starting next week. Will be running an aces high table then. We tried one epic mission in December and plan to revisit some of those.

The only challenge we’ve hit is having unconventional formats on the weekly night where we can’t always make sure everyone knows it’s a thing. We do what we can with social media but it’s never 100% effective.

After my experiences this week, I’ll make a plan to always have a starter friendly squad on hand instead of just my couple of normal ones. It got messy playing our brand new player with some of those annoying Roger Rogers (no Nantex though!)

Just now, ScummyRebel said:

I liked everything you said until the new factions. I really don’t care for that idea because I’m concerned that will spread their logistics way too thin and we will have challenges for all factions being able to purchase their ships.

I hear ya. But if Warhammer can be the top selling miniatures game in the world right now with 26 factions, I think X-Wing can still be quite healthy with a couple more.

Admittedly, I loved KOTOR in ways I never loved half of the movies or cartoon series, because I got to play a part in the narrative. It's universally considered one of the best video games ever made. There's nostalgia there too.

Disney has already said they are looking to do the High Republic era. So best we embrace it now. And if it keeps XWM profitable, and viable for another 2-3 years, I'm down.

6 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

I hear ya. But if Warhammer can be the top selling miniatures game in the world right now with 26 factions, I think X-Wing can still be quite healthy with a couple more.

Admittedly, I loved KOTOR in ways I never loved half of the movies or cartoon series, because I got to play a part in the narrative. It's universally considered one of the best video games ever made. There's nostalgia there too.

Disney has already said they are looking to do the High Republic era. So best we embrace it now. And if it keeps XWM profitable, and viable for another 2-3 years, I'm down.

Do we know whether Warhammer sells well because of players or because of collectors? I suspect it's the second group and if that'S true I think it's hard to replicate this for X-Wing.

36 minutes ago, Tobbert said:

Do we know whether Warhammer sells well because of players or because of collectors? I suspect it's the second group and if that'S true I think it's hard to replicate this for X-Wing.

Anecdotal, but my local X-Wing night is also a WH40K night, and the Warhammer folks are *always* buying into new factions and changing stuff around. Start off with one Marines faction. Maybe stick to it over time, but buy into Tau, then sell Tau and buy Chaos. They're always churning through factions.

Within factions, folks often seem to be changing units dramatically. Maybe a certain kind of super-heavy Marines get buffed, and they'll pick up two squads. Maybe they get nerfed the next update and they just start gathering dust. Maybe you can get transports like Rhinos or Drop Pods free in a particular kind of army composition, so you go out buy those for the whole army.

I suspect a lot of X-Wing players would be really p***ed off if FFG operated a lot like that. A couple-hundred dollars worth of an army becomes useless, and it'll take another few hundred to replace it with the next essentially-mandatory unit.

That's mostly an outsider's perspective just looking over folks shoulders. I could be wrong about the extent of these things, maybe it's not that bad at all. But it seems almost like the worst aspects of the 1e style of "fix cards" from Veteran's Packs, combined with a very heavy hand on the points updates.

2 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I wonder about this, as well. Any opinion from @Stay OT Leader about Epic Battles and/or Huge ships would be appreciated. Will they enter Organized Play? Or will it only be Hyperspace? There is room for Epic Battles to do some interesting stuff and I was hoping for something to come out supporting that. I am starting to have my doubts that anything like that will happen. Or that they will even release any new Huge ships. Or content.

Do you think that Hyperspace might include those scenario rules that come in the card packs? As in, Round 1 will be played with Mynock Infestation at the Hyperspace event.

Your guess is as good as mine. My guess would be that Epic is coming nowhere near common Organised Play formats and never will.

It's possible that they'll play with the scenario rules but I doubt it will break out beyond side events. I wouldn't expect any deviation from the tried and trusted OP formats of 200pts/3 obstacles.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Kidding aside, no one's saying that old product needs to be produced as much or as often as newer product. It's just that so long as we're still getting new players, and especially as long as the old product is still legal, it should be offered at least occasionally. A patient newbie should be able to obtain it without back-alley dealing at 3 AM.

Yeah, there is an easy middle-ground approach:

- Iconic, core ships are always in print. X-Wing, TIE fighters, Slave 1, Vulture Droids, and so on, and so forth.

- Non-core ships are printed and stocked for a certain period of time.

- Regular reviews of which ships (both from a game perspective and a business one) should be "renewed" for future printings.)

- Replace stuff that falls out with new ships (or, if the game goes on long enough, reprints)

This is basically a rotation, like you have with any number of card games. Some cards are "evergreen" and always in the game. Others rotate out after some period of time to make way for new product.

7 minutes ago, player3503606 said:

This is basically a rotation, like you have with any number of card games. Some cards are "evergreen" and always in the game. Others rotate out after some period of time to make way for new product.

Maybe, though the only experience I have with a card game rotation is the Legend of the Five Rings CCG, which also had a continuous story helping the rotation feel like an advancement.

It would also raise the question, "What are the iconic ships?" Are Lambda s iconic? B-Wings? Do we choose one per faction? Two? I guess I'm not entirely convinced the pool is deep enough to support that level of permanent rotation.

25 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Your guess is as good as mine. My guess would be that Epic is coming nowhere near common Organised Play formats and never will.

At this time stamp he seems to imply there's a future for Epic in OP. "Starting out with side events and things, but yes, we're looking to push it a bit more" seems to imply there could be more in the future.

Possibly/probably not on the route to Worlds, but OP support for Epic can only be a good thing for pushing product IMO.

Side events.

8 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Side events.

Side events are fine. A very good use for alternative formats. Those of us who like them better will play them and those who don't like them can concentrate on the main event. Win-win?

2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I liked everything you said until the new factions. I really don’t care for that idea because I’m concerned that will spread their logistics way too thin and we will have challenges for all factions being able to purchase their ships .

The game is already having that challenge. I think new factions offer new avenues of growth.

But it should be New Republic and Imperial Remnant alternate universe.

2 hours ago, Tobbert said:

Do we know whether Warhammer sells well because of players or because of collectors? I suspect it's the second group and if that'S true I think it's hard to replicate this for X-Wing.

Why??

Folks have shown an enthusiasm to collect the repaints. . .

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

B. Star Wars fan sees people playing with his favorite ships and is excited.

C. Star Wars fan discovers that those particular ships are 3-4 years old and not available anymore nor ever again.

I said 1-2 years, and not never again. But I do agree this is a factor--folks will want the iconic ships.

Quote

E. X-Wing loses players through natural attrition faster than new players replace them, and the game dies.

Global warming affects us all.

Quote

Kidding aside, no one's saying that old product needs to be produced as much or as often as newer product. It's just that so long as we're still getting new players, and especially as long as the old product is still legal, it should be offered at least occasionally. A patient newbie should be able to obtain it without back-alley dealing at 3 AM.

Agreed.

Currently Empire is sitting at 13 ships; Rebels has 17 (but several are shuttles and one-offs like the Stolen TIE) and Scum has 19 (but no intra-faction divisions, so it is bogusly representing 3 eras).

Using Empire as the "standard," it could be decided that a dozen ships = a full faction. About a half-dozen of these are likely iconic, and probably stay, basically, in print at all times. You might even be able to knock that down to 4 or 5.

The other 1/2 dozen are now free to be rotated in and out of print. The game will never lack for ships; what is currently lacking is the incentive to purchase. Like @Cloaker points out, if the TIE Advanced were rotated out (as our working example), perhaps Vader is one of the pilots for the TIE Avenger. Meaning a new player will always have access to Vader, but an old player gets access to a new chassis.

But basically, what @Cloaker said. For example, this is what the TIE Defender rerelease should have looked like:

Edit: And while writing my response, @player3503606 nails it on the head.

7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The other 1/2 dozen are now free to be rotated in and out of print. The game will never lack for ships; what is currently lacking is the incentive to purchase. Like @Cloaker points out, if the TIE Advanced were rotated out (as our working example), perhaps Vader is one of the pilots for the TIE Avenger. Meaning a new player will always have access to Vader, but an old player gets access to a new chassis.

What on earth are we considering iconic to the Empire if not the TIE Advanced? O_o TIE Fighter, certainly, and perhaps the Lambda , but I would place the TIE Advanced above even the TIE Bomber or TIE Interceptor; and I don't even care for the thing!

Maybe it would help if we used an example that actually has some small chance of being in the game at some point? As much as I like the TIE Avenger, I don't see it as a happening thing, regardless of rotation.

17 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

What on earth are we considering iconic to the Empire if not the TIE Advanced? O_o TIE Fighter, certainly, and perhaps the Lambda , but I would place the TIE Advanced above even the TIE Bomber or TIE Interceptor; and I don't even care for the thing!

Just for the sake of argument, I could say that they TIE Advanced is used by 1 character in 1 scene in 1 movie. In the actual XWM game, it is only ever flown as a way to field DV. Put the man in black in another ship and nothing is lost.

Also, the TIE Bomber and Lambda have different in-game roles and are less replaceable for faction balance and utility that just-another-starfighter, which is all the TIE Adv is for the Imperial faction. If it wasn't Vader's ride, it's utterly replaceable.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Just for the sake of argument, I could say that they TIE Advanced is used by 1 character in 1 scene in 1 movie. In the actual XWM game, it is only ever flown as a way to field DV. Put the man in black in another ship and nothing is lost.

Also, the TIE Bomber and Lambda have different in-game roles and are less replaceable for faction balance and utility that just-another-starfighter, which is all the TIE Adv is for the Imperial faction. If it wasn't Vader's ride, it's utterly replaceable.

Granted. However, we're not discussing which is most useful in-game; we're discussing which is most iconic. To this end, it's not just, "1 character in 1 scene in 1 movie," but the big villain flying against the hero during the climax of the first movie.

22 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The game is already having that challenge. I think new factions offer new avenues of growth.

But it should be New Republic and Imperial Remnant alternate universe.

If it’s already having that challenge, you don’t make it better by doubling down and making it bigger.

If they can get their house in order with the current set (whether that be 2-3 Iconic ships always in stock plus rotating runs of the rest, or they just figure out some other method), then we can talk about adding factions.

PS - I personally would love to see wraith squadron / hawkbats alternate paint for t65 and tie interceptor. But that’s not terribly likely. Just establishing I don’t dislike the idea at its core, just have issues with how they’re handling logistics currently and how that wouldn’t help yet.

Also, we need some more proper huge ships but that’s another story.

29 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

But basically, what @Cloaker said. For example, this is what the TIE Defender re-release should have looked like:

And with a ever so slight buff, they would be worth the points and I would have actually shelled out for one. But, as it is, nah.

However, in FFGs defense, I might just get into Resistance beyond my 3 T-70s and 3 RZ-2 A-wings for this one... really for only this pilot, for really fun pint games. He just fits me in too many ways to count:

Well played FFG, well played.

I am talking about volumes of models bought/money spent. Especially people who are only painting and sculpting are buying like crazy in my observation.

11 minutes ago, Tobbert said:

I am talking about volumes of models bought/money spent. Especially people who are only painting and sculpting are buying like crazy in my observation.

Even so, there’s a non-negligible sector of the purchasing demographic that buys these only as display models (see: Amazon reviews).

I think there may be collectible potential, but we know that’s not FFG’s goal.

A good X-Wing Epic Campaign series - possible thematically for the 3 time periods - would allow people to put more ships on the table and hence generate more sales. Producing plastic/acrylic for cardboard ships and devices etc for scenarios and epic play could link into this making kits worth buying rather than just downloading/printing the rulebooks. Modular space stations (HOTAC style), turrets, transports, boarding craft, etc. There is scope for a few expansions here generic to all factions.

Another area I think that could drive X-Wing into new expanded space with new models, is a variation for "in atmosphere" planet side variation that integrates existing x-wing ships with to scale ground forces like troop squads and AT-ATs etc for reproducing great movie scenes like Rogue One Scarif, and ESB Hoth's opening battle scene etc. And then we have the turrets like those for capital ship and ground base attacks. Shield "walls" would be a thing as they are the movies for ground forces. Again homebrew 3D prints and rules are floating around but FFG could make this core with competitive Legion and Armada type objectives. This would be a whole new game in a way with scenery, squad blocks, tanks - think Attack of the Clones final battle, half of Clone Wars TV series (as well as the aforementioned). There are years to mine here with strong integration between existing "space" X-Wing and ground forces - LAATs dropping ATTEs, Gozanti dropping AT-ATs and AT-DPs or for Scum speeders and troops, and Mandalorian jetpack troopers, U-Wings dropping troops.... Ships could be downed and form cover...

For both of these ideas some of these stuff has been done for years in the home-brew x-wing game space - FFG could expand its game and bring in Legion/Armada type objectives to shake the game up for fun but also potentially for competitive play to make the game more than just most dogfighting for points.

I'd say more official game modes are necessary. Dogfight is fun, but it becomes 'samey' after a while.