Just now, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Alright. You write balanced rules for explosives that are perfectly balanced AND match what we see in the media.
I mean, sure you'll have to compensate for internal vs. external armor and targeting specific components and the effects that would have on the vehicle, and when to inflict a critical injury vs. when it won't, but I'm sure that won't be very hard.
Alright. You pay me to do it and I'll get started.
Just now, P-47 Thunderbolt said:AND match what we see in the media.
1 minute ago, Ghostofman said:She's an NPC and it was just a flashy description that didn't impact the story in any meaningful way?
Except to establish an idiotic continuity-breaking example that vehicles can go down to light personal weapons. That's the biggest issue here; the RPG mechanics work best if you tell everyone to forget about what they see on the screen, in the real-game world , the rules say that crap can't happen.
Edited by Daeglan23 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:Probably more like a LRB, though he may have been referring to after he and BB-8 departed, when they just finished it off.
It was tripod mounted with a power generator...
24 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:That's the biggest issue here; the RPG mechanics work best if you tell everyone to forget about what they see on the screen, in the real-game world , the rules say that crap can't happen.
First off, I was agreeing that that's kinda a dumb solution that doesn't make sense.
All the others you can apply some logic to, be it the narrative dice system or the crunch. In a few cases it's a stretch, but still doable. But that one... no idea. Maybe it was an explosive arrow with stats that we haven't seen? Maybe there's some cut content explaining it in more detail? That movie does practically require you read a reference book to totally get it, so there's possibilities, even if they are all kinda lame.
Honestly though, if that's the core of your gripe, then it's not the system, it's all systems that will ever attempt to be Star Wars. The movies and TV shows weren't and aren't set up to follow any hard rules system (and don't get me started on the novels, comics, and video games). You'll always find a problem somewhere that won't add up, can't work, or is beyond the scope of the rules (unless your rules are so long and convoluted as to factor in every possible occurrence making the system likely unplayable.)
And then you'll end up with the old "good for the goose good for the gander" problem. Establish a hard mechanic that allows a bow and arrow to knock down a starfighter, and sooner or later the big gorram heroes (the players) go down like punks because of a bad die roll when a well thrown dirt clod comes through the YT-1300's windshield and kills them all. And all that because minor character did something goofy in a movie.
The most simple example being spacecraft movement. The Falcon is often identified as being very fast, both in hyperspace and at sublight. This is repeated in several films, even being a noted point in RoS.
But then watch the movies.
ANH: The Falcon is seen with 2 Star Destroyers outrunning it.
ESB: The Falcon is shown literally flying circles around 3 Star Destroyers.
ESB later: The Falcon is shown unable to escape a Star Destroyer.
ESB Even Later: The Falcon can't outrun standard TIEs.
RotJ: The Falcon is shown outrunning a TIE Interceptor.
RoS: The Falcon is called out as being the only craft fast enough to rescue Finn.
... Turning all that nonsense into a single, logical, and easy to understand rules system is a tall order, and probably impossible.
22 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:That is logically inconsistent, but okay. If something can ignore 10 points of Soak, it can, by definition, ignore 2 points of armor, since 5 personal scale damage equals point of armor.
A rule doesn't have to be logical as long as it practically works.
8 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:But then watch the movies.
ANH: The Falcon is seen with 2 Star Destroyers outrunning it.
ESB: The Falcon is shown literally flying circles around 3 Star Destroyers.
ESB later: The Falcon is shown unable to escape a Star Destroyer.
ESB Even Later: The Falcon can't outrun standard TIEs.
RotJ: The Falcon is shown outrunning a TIE Interceptor.
RoS: The Falcon is called out as being the only craft fast enough to rescue Finn.
... Turning all that nonsense into a single, logical, and easy to understand rules system is a tall order, and probably impossible.
Some of that can be explained away by simply being at a speed that is not its max speed. Not that not being at its max speed makes a ton of sense, but there might be explanations for that.
1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Some of that can be explained away by simply being at a speed that is not its max speed. Not that not being at its max speed makes a ton of sense, but there might be explanations for that.
Some, but not all. Eventually, it'll always break down.
And that's my point. If you want a solid crunchy world that always obeys the rules, Star Wars isn't it.
On 1/24/2020 at 4:35 PM, Ghostofman said:Turning all that nonsense into a single, logical, and easy to understand rules system is a tall order, and probably impossible.
Or is it?
QuoteANH: The Falcon is seen with 2 Star Destroyers outrunning it.
Those are fresh off the assembly line Star Destroyers and the Falcon was weighed down with the credits that Obi-Wan gave Han... Luke insisted on paying Han in pennies in protest for his ridiculous rate for transit to Alderaan, creating significant drag.
QuoteESB: The Falcon is shown literally flying circles around 3 Star Destroyers.
The Falcon just got an oil change and the targeting computer downloaded more RAM.
QuoteESB later: The Falcon is shown unable to escape a Star Destroyer.
Han was... pent up and not flying his best, could happen to anyone.
QuoteESB Even Later: The Falcon can't outrun standard TIEs.
The empire not only nerfed the hyperdrive, they poured blue milk into the gas tank.
QuoteRotJ: The Falcon is shown outrunning a TIE Interceptor.
Lando's back inside his ship and knows how to make that thing work, baby. 90% of time Lando can outfly an Interceptor 100% of the time.
QuoteRoS: The Falcon is called out as being the only craft fast enough to rescue Finn.
Look I only have so much energy for this, there was a wizard involved.
I was looking at the AoR Soldier signature "The bigger they are..." and thought to myself: Well it's great that you can negate the armor but isn't a weapon still only going to be making one damage point if successfully generating 10 personal scale damage (if lucky)?
Thinking that an At-ST for example has about 15 Hit points, this ability will not make any difference since you'll have to shoot about 15 times before you can take it down. Or am I missing a rule?
So I searched the forum on damaging vehicles and came to this thread.
Crits! Pretty much the only way to take down an armored vehicle is with crits.
I think that a lot of "anti-vehicle" ordnance is a bit underpowered against the intended target, but that is largely an issue of avoiding abuse against personal scale targets (the Anti-Vehicle Flechette Launcher actually balances this well).
1 hour ago, cvallinie said:I was looking at the AoR Soldier signature "The bigger they are..." and thought to myself: Well it's great that you can negate the armor but isn't a weapon still only going to be making one damage point if successfully generating 10 personal scale damage (if lucky)?
Thinking that an At-ST for example has about 15 Hit points, this ability will not make any difference since you'll have to shoot about 15 times before you can take it down. Or am I missing a rule?
So I searched the forum on damaging vehicles and came to this thread.
Indeed the 1/10 rule still applies regarding damage
Still allows characters to punch way above their category. If you factor 10+ damage personal firearms with autofire and other heavy weapons, these 15 HT will go down quickly if several people got them, remember the ability applies to several characters
Also critical hit rule applies, regardless of armor with the signature ability active, so you could literally down an AT-AT with a lucky hit from personal scale firearms with 10+ damage
Which, for added fun, include disruptors.
If used correctly, "The bigger they are..." is EXTREMELY powerful
You don't actually need to deal HT to trigger a crit, you just need to beat armor. Even .1 planetary scale damage would be eligible to trigger a crit.
6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Crits! Pretty much the only way to take down an armored vehicle is with crits.
I think that a lot of "anti-vehicle" ordnance is a bit underpowered against the intended target, but that is largely an issue of avoiding abuse against personal scale targets (the Anti-Vehicle Flechette Launcher actually balances this well).
5 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:You don't actually need to deal HT to trigger a crit, you just need to beat armor. Even .1 planetary scale damage would be eligible to trigger a crit.
This is literally the explanation to all of those previous examples. The standard blaster rifle does just enough damage to deal 1 HT... whether or not it is enough to break through an Armor rating is not really important in those examples, but the right Crit or use of Destiny is enough to do something catastrophic to a vehicle. In most cases that were given, the personal scale weapons dont outright destroy a vehicle, but disable it to the point of being unusable or lead to the events that destroy it.
Edited by GameboyAKThanks P-47, MB Fr and GameboyAK. Your answers are very helpful. I appreciate your valuable input.
One way to think about it is a RPG just puts a hole through a vehicle in real life so effectively it is doing a vicious crit. leaving most of the vehicle intact.
You need to pass Soak/Armor for a critical hit.
For critting a Tie with hand held weapons: Base damage + pierce + talents like deadly accuracy + a few success and a well build character easily goes through 2 points of armor. Also a Tie is a minion so it dies with a crit.
The scene with poes x-wing is still questionable, I admit.
Edited by Vader is Love2 hours ago, Vader is Love said:The scene with poes x-wing is still questionable, I admit.
You can explain that with a "Poe rolled a Despair" while trying to take off. Same goes for Ezra and his A-wing vs. the Tuskens.
It's not the most crunchtastic solution, but it's a solution. Just be wiling to have it roll both ways "The Inquisitor rolled a Despair while trying to escape."
The problem I'm seeing with the argument that the rules as are work for the setting, because it IS possible to kill vehicles with personal weapons, it's INCREDIBLY difficult and often takes very high point characters to pull off. While in the presented media, it's not too unusual for it to happen. They're not expecting a one in a million shot, or for it to be something only a crack commando can pull off; Grunts are expecting to do damage with a decent hit, and heavy repeaters are deployed as a weapon to use against vehicles.
On 2/17/2020 at 12:32 PM, Ghostofman said:You can explain that with a "Poe rolled a Despair" while trying to take off. Same goes for Ezra and his A-wing vs. the Tuskens.
It's not the most crunchtastic solution, but it's a solution. Just be wiling to have it roll both ways "The Inquisitor rolled a Despair while trying to escape."
The problem is that the game needs butt-pull explanations to make possible scenes that are not all that uncommon in the media. D6 was way better in this regard with its scaling rules.
x5 instead of x10 for smaller silhouettes.
6 minutes ago, Sturn said:x5 instead of x10 for smaller silhouettes.
yeah a speeder level vehicle damage would be helpful
4 hours ago, Daeglan said:yeah a speeder level vehicle damage would be helpful
And a higher one to show a split between small and large (capital) starships too. Like in D6...
44 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:And a higher one to show a split between small and large (capital) starships too. Like in D6...
I think we can accomplish that by just making bigger guns.
29 minutes ago, Daeglan said:I think we can accomplish that by just making bigger guns.
The scaling system is more elegant and it helps scale successes in addition to just base damage. That's an important difference.
