6 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Ackbar is also a good matchup against the ship...

...Try some of the other Rebel commanders potentially?

We certainly need to put more games in the books, but we just hit a point where after four straight losses (and one very narrow victory) with it, two against Ackbar, one against Sato, one against Rieekan (with the narrow win over Leia), we were absolutely stumped with it.

It isn’t just losing, it’s losing in spectacular fashion to just about everything we throw at it... which leads me to believe that the problem must either lie with our SSD builds or strategies... or the ship just isn’t good. Which is what I’m trying to figure out.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

We certainly need to put more games in the books, but we just hit a point where after four straight losses (and one very narrow victory) with it, two against Ackbar, one against Sato, one against Rieekan (with the narrow win over Leia), we were absolutely stumped with it.

It isn’t just losing, it’s losing in spectacular fashion to just about everything we throw at it... which leads me to believe that the problem must either lie with our SSD builds or strategies... or the ship just isn’t good. Which is what I’m trying to figure out.

As you already said, people win many tournaments with it, so it can't be bad. A build that did well in a recent Polish Prime by Piotr "Świetlik" Świetlicki can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EipLSBdoeI0 starting around 5:19:28. Its not my favorite, but results are results.

2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

We certainly need to put more games in the books, but we just hit a point where after four straight losses (and one very narrow victory) with it, two against Ackbar, one against Sato, one against Rieekan (with the narrow win over Leia), we were absolutely stumped with it.

It isn’t just losing, it’s losing in spectacular fashion to just about everything we throw at it... which leads me to believe that the problem must either lie with our SSD builds or strategies... or the ship just isn’t good. Which is what I’m trying to figure out.

You are following all the new Huge ship rules? IE., it attacks 3 times a turn? It gets effectively a Strategic Advisor "built in"?

What builds have you tried with it?

Yep, we’re very experienced players, and I’m an obsessive rules guy. We aren’t “missing” anything like that. Fair question, though!

The builds we’ve tried have been varied, and the weird thing is that a great number of things have gone wrong with it, which is what leads me to question its viability. Lemme see if I can summarize without getting too wordy...

1) I flew it first, a Command Prototype Ravager captained by Piett with Krennic aboard. I think I had a Comms/Vader Gozanti, and a decent number of TIE Interceptors. I deleted a GR75 early on, after which a particularly troublesome dust field blocked most of my shots against the three MC30’s he flanked me with; by the time I got another chance to fire, it was turn four or five, and it was mostly rear arcs at close range (which made Krennic useless). I managed to stay alive and kill his MC30 flagship with Sato aboard, but got crippled, and having also lost my Gozanti and fighters, lost by a very wide margin. Lessons learned: ALWAYS DCO. Wide Area Barrage May not be my personal favorite Ordnance upgrade, but when the target is as big as an SSD, EVERYTHING can get wrecked by it. Also, dust fields suck.

2) My opponent tried an Assault Prototype build that revolved around running nothing but Concentrate Fire orders, and using a Defensive Liaison to change commands. Turn one, he hit an asteroid and got the “discard all command tokens, you can never have command tokens” crit. He basically conceded, and (as it was a friendly game), I allowed him to draw a different card, which turned out to be something like, “you can’t use accuracies.” He was terrified of Ackbar getting around behind him, so he declined to turn off the rocks on the following turn. That card turned out to be the “you cannot fire at long range,” crit. His guns were now basically neutered. He carried on for a couple more turns, dragging his belly over the rocks for increasingly awful crits, before I put the thing out of its misery on turn four with some blistering Ackbar broadsides. Lessons learned: NEVER hit an asteroid, and if you find yourself chasing an Ackbar conga line that’s spitting fire from the back flanks, turn away and disengage.

3) I again flew a similar Ackbar fleet against an SSD (maybe Command Prototype?) this time escorted by an ISD (I wanna say it was an ISD-I). I won this one easily, losing a Corvette but sinking the SSD on turn 6. I basically kept his ISD on the opposite side of his SSD, and he was never able to bring it to bear at all. Lessons learned: without significant upgrades, an SSD struggles to kill an Assault Frigate with ECMs before it outflanks the SSD. I don’t think this particular list was my opponent’s best work, but the fact that I pretty boldly waltzed my AFMkII right through his front arc basically untouched was pretty sad commentary on the killing power of the SSD.

4) I barely remember this one. I flew the big ship. I had a couple flotillas. I’m pretty sure he played Rieekan, I got crippled, lost the squadron game, lost some objective points, lost the game. Lessons learned: Rieekan is still far too good.

5) I tried a bit of a Leia experiment, but with some fundamentally solid ships. Vanguard had just come out, and I wanted to try out that title. He was flying a pretty properly kitted Assault variant, with a Gozanti. I had him like, one card from crippled when (on turn 5), his dice suddenly turned to lightning, and he wasted Vanguard, Admonition, and Bright Hope all in one turn. I think Phoenix Home limped away. Lessons learned: OK, it CAN win, but even though he managed it, in discussions after the game, we realized that if I had used Kanan Jarrus to apply even one more Raid token throughout the game, he would not have been able to repair his way out of trouble quickly enough, and I’d have won narrowly.

In the final analysis, we sort of concluded that it was an unacceptably risky and tricky ship to fly, at least given what we were trying to do with it. It always seems like an all-or-nothing proposition, where one mistake costs you the whole game, often as early as deployment (“whoops, I’m too close to that dust cloud,” “whoops, my support ship is on the wrong side of me,” “whoops, I have to choose between hitting that asteroid and letting him get behind me early”). Which can be true of any fleet, yes, but when the SSD is 75% of your fleet or more, those mistakes are often unfixable.

4 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Yep, we’re very experienced players, and I’m an obsessive rules guy. We aren’t “missing” anything like that. Fair question, though!

The builds we’ve tried have been varied, and the weird thing is that a great number of things have gone wrong with it, which is what leads me to question its viability. Lemme see if I can summarize without getting too wordy...

1) I flew it first, a Command Prototype Ravager captained by Piett with Krennic aboard. I think I had a Comms/Vader Gozanti, and a decent number of TIE Interceptors. I deleted a GR75 early on, after which a particularly troublesome dust field blocked most of my shots against the three MC30’s he flanked me with; by the time I got another chance to fire, it was turn four or five, and it was mostly rear arcs at close range (which made Krennic useless). I managed to stay alive and kill his MC30 flagship with Sato aboard, but got crippled, and having also lost my Gozanti and fighters, lost by a very wide margin. Lessons learned: ALWAYS DCO. Wide Area Barrage May not be my personal favorite Ordnance upgrade, but when the target is as big as an SSD, EVERYTHING can get wrecked by it. Also, dust fields suck.

2) My opponent tried an Assault Prototype build that revolved around running nothing but Concentrate Fire orders, and using a Defensive Liaison to change commands. Turn one, he hit an asteroid and got the “discard all command tokens, you can never have command tokens” crit. He basically conceded, and (as it was a friendly game), I allowed him to draw a different card, which turned out to be something like, “you can’t use accuracies.” He was terrified of Ackbar getting around behind him, so he declined to turn off the rocks on the following turn. That card turned out to be the “you cannot fire at long range,” crit. His guns were now basically neutered. He carried on for a couple more turns, dragging his belly over the rocks for increasingly awful crits, before I put the thing out of its misery on turn four with some blistering Ackbar broadsides. Lessons learned: NEVER hit an asteroid, and if you find yourself chasing an Ackbar conga line that’s spitting fire from the back flanks, turn away and disengage.

3) I again flew a similar Ackbar fleet against an SSD (maybe Command Prototype?) this time escorted by an ISD (I wanna say it was an ISD-I). I won this one easily, losing a Corvette but sinking the SSD on turn 6. I basically kept his ISD on the opposite side of his SSD, and he was never able to bring it to bear at all. Lessons learned: without significant upgrades, an SSD struggles to kill an Assault Frigate with ECMs before it outflanks the SSD. I don’t think this particular list was my opponent’s best work, but the fact that I pretty boldly waltzed my AFMkII right through his front arc basically untouched was pretty sad commentary on the killing power of the SSD.

4) I barely remember this one. I flew the big ship. I had a couple flotillas. I’m pretty sure he played Rieekan, I got crippled, lost the squadron game, lost some objective points, lost the game. Lessons learned: Rieekan is still far too good.

5) I tried a bit of a Leia experiment, but with some fundamentally solid ships. Vanguard had just come out, and I wanted to try out that title. He was flying a pretty properly kitted Assault variant, with a Gozanti. I had him like, one card from crippled when (on turn 5), his dice suddenly turned to lightning, and he wasted Vanguard, Admonition, and Bright Hope all in one turn. I think Phoenix Home limped away. Lessons learned: OK, it CAN win, but even though he managed it, in discussions after the game, we realized that if I had used Kanan Jarrus to apply even one more Raid token throughout the game, he would not have been able to repair his way out of trouble quickly enough, and I’d have won narrowly.

In the final analysis, we sort of concluded that it was an unacceptably risky and tricky ship to fly, at least given what we were trying to do with it. It always seems like an all-or-nothing proposition, where one mistake costs you the whole game, often as early as deployment (“whoops, I’m too close to that dust cloud,” “whoops, my support ship is on the wrong side of me,” “whoops, I have to choose between hitting that asteroid and letting him get behind me early”). Which can be true of any fleet, yes, but when the SSD is 75% of your fleet or more, those mistakes are often unfixable.

The Command Prototype doesn't kill ships particularly well without work from whatever else is in the fleet. Interceptors aren't ship killers, neither is an ISD trapped on the wrong side of the dreadnought. The Assault Prototype was the "meta list," provided it's flown without running over asteroids repeatedly (or at least having a repair command/repair crews ready.)

3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The Command Prototype doesn't kill ships particularly well without work from whatever else is in the fleet. Interceptors aren't ship killers, neither is an ISD trapped on the wrong side of the dreadnought. The Assault Prototype was the "meta list," provided it's flown without running over asteroids repeatedly (or at least having a repair command/repair crews ready.)

Agreed. When people say 'the SSD is OP', what they actually mean is 'JJ or Piett + Assault Prototype is tricky to beat'. And then *at least* Gunnery Team and DCO. Otherwise flavor to taste.

I do acknowledge that more experience is probably needed. We got sort of ticked off at the thing for a bit, then got distracted by an RitR Campaign, and just haven’t played 400 point games in a while. I’m really just here looking for a starting point, because we really aren’t sure what the issue is. Should we be gunning for initiative? Going for Super Juggernaut, “I AM the fleet” builds with zero support? Going for lightly-upgraded Command Prototypes and putting in more support ships and activations? Squadronless with Offensive Retrofit upgrades? Aces? Generic swarms? Can Sloane work? Piett? Is Jerjerrod really “The Guy?”

Ravager/kallus/dco(or brunson)/IO/GT/HIE/H9/QTC/LS on the assault with JJ or Piett commander, 2 gozers one with vader/Comms and the other with repair crew. Try that build. When flown *not* over a bunch of rocks and pulling the worst crits it’s very difficult to approach.

not impossible, but difficult. Which is fun

I must however also mention that in my Vassal tests, a proper Agate Starhawk can win 1:1 against a Ravager.

9 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Agreed. When people say 'the SSD is OP', what they actually mean is 'JJ or Piett + Assault Prototype is tricky to beat'. And then *at least* Gunnery Team and DCO. Otherwise flavor to taste.

... and that’s sort of the conclusion I’ve been reaching in my theorycrafting. It just feels like it has far too many holes in its defenses.

10 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Ravager/kallus/dco(or brunson)/IO/GT/HIE/H9/QTC/LS on the assault with JJ or Piett commander, 2 gozers one with vader/Comms and the other with repair crew. Try that build. When flown *not* over a bunch of rocks and pulling the worst crits it’s very difficult to approach.

not impossible, but difficult. Which is fun

Can that really stand up against squadrons though? Don’t Y-Wings and B-Wings take turns bombing your face and moving off to the station to repair and have a good laugh before coming right back for more?

5 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

I must however also mention that in my Vassal tests, a proper Agate Starhawk can win 1:1 against a Ravager.

And THIS is what really worries me. The combination of Magnite Tractor Beams, Salvo, and huge ship crippling rules just look like big wet sloppy tears for the Imperial SSDs.

When you say, “can win,” how often do you feel that happens? 50% of the time? 33%? 75%?

9 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Can that really stand up against squadrons though? Don’t Y-Wings and B-Wings take turns bombing your face and moving off to the station to repair and have a good laugh before coming right back for more?

Forgot the QLT as well. Counter is a MASSIVE part of it. Kallus will trigger vs aces every counter, as will h9/qtc (which you can then reroll if not shooting an ace). This combined with flak (that can be ravagered) can make short work of bomber balls, especially if they are planning on trying to double tap via Yavaris/Jendon. High hull generics can weather the storm, but it’s not like they’ve been tearing it up compared to aces so I’d like to see them make a comeback

Yeah, I figured that was probably a piece of the puzzle, and probably Point-Defense Reroute as well. Otherwise enemy squads can just tee off on you with no worries from turn one to turn six, and that sounds like ****.

19 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Yeah, I figured that was probably a piece of the puzzle, and probably Point-Defense Reroute as well. Otherwise enemy squads can just tee off on you with no worries from turn one to turn six, and that sounds like ****.

I like PDR as a sort of soft annihilator replacement, but it’s not always taken by others

8 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Yes, I have seen that thread. Wherein a couple people seem to have posted a couple of lists, but mostly nobody can remember what anyone played. Not to discount the fact that some very dedicated people are taking the time to do a card-by-card statistical breakdown (love that, thank you!), but I don’t understand why the lists they’re taking that info from aren’t being copy-pasted (even just the top 3 from each major event?).

The first post of that thread has a link to a spreadsheet. Second page of that spreadsheet has all the lists. There’s about 450 lists in there at this point detailing location, placing, points... basically everything but who flew it.

4 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Can that really stand up against squadrons though? Don’t Y-Wings and B-Wings take turns bombing your face and moving off to the station to repair and have a good laugh before coming right back for more?

And THIS is what really worries me. The combination of Magnite Tractor Beams, Salvo, and huge ship crippling rules just look like big wet sloppy tears for the Imperial SSDs.

When you say, “can win,” how often do you feel that happens? 50% of the time? 33%? 75%?

Depends on the upgrades really 🙂. The Starhawk can often double arc it quite easily, parking in the front or a side arc, Agate says I can always brace...something the SSD might not be able to do. Salvo is also key, but the SSD might get Salvo via that one officer.

46 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

Depends on the upgrades really 🙂. The Starhawk can often double arc it quite easily, parking in the front or a side arc, Agate says I can always brace...something the SSD might not be able to do. Salvo is also key, but the SSD might get Salvo via that one officer.

What officer? It's a weapons team, which means your super is going Gunnery team less. Which IM FINE WITH*

*someone may be a Rebel only, who's to say?

13 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Yes, I have seen that thread. Wherein a couple people seem to have posted a couple of lists, but mostly nobody can remember what anyone played. Not to discount the fact that some very dedicated people are taking the time to do a card-by-card statistical breakdown (love that, thank you!), but I don’t understand why the lists they’re taking that info from aren’t being copy-pasted (even just the top 3 from each major event?).

Go to the Google sheet itself linked in the first post. The lists are all there in the second tab of the sheet. It's not the best format for casual viewing, but it's all the raw information you're looking for. The reason few people are copy and pasting into the thread is because the vast majority of lists are sent to me as just pictures. Because of the format I use for the Excel sheet, there's no real format that saves me any time. Meanwhile, just snapping pictures saves the TOs a ton of time, so I encourage them to do so.

5 hours ago, geek19 said:

What officer? It's a weapons team, which means your super is going Gunnery team less. Which IM FINE WITH*

*someone may be a Rebel only, who's to say?

Ah yes, my mistake.

Yeah, that they made the Salvo guy a weapons team is a kick in the... restraining bolts. I mean, maybe you set it up with that dude, take Advanced Gunnery, and look for the most awful, horribly unfair blue and yellow objectives you can find? Seems iffy. But yeah, I really think the SSD should have Salvo.

And to the guys who pointed out how to access the lists: thank you. And thank you for all the work you do on the statistical breakdowns.

7 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

But yeah, I really think the SSD should have Salvo.

All a 4th! attack each round out of the super costs you is your Gunnery team slot. Do you REALLY need it? I mean, how often are opponents going to cluster into one arc and then not mind about a 3 dice shot into one ship? That'll NEVER happen. Drop gunnery teams, add salvo upgrade, profit.

(Guys stop laughing the imps might do it! Shh shh shh shh!)

My problem with the SSD is not that it is to strong or to weak but that there seems to be only exactly one single list that works with it. That list ist an Assault SSD with JJ or Piet, with DCO/Brunson, Kallus, Gunnery Team, QLT, leading shots, H9 and Ravager + upgrades as you see fit. Always with no squads and exactly two Gozantis, one with Repair Crews and one with Comms Net and Hondo and or Vader sprinkled in for good measure. It is very rare to see any other SSD list be successful. That is really boring and I wisch more list variety was viable with this ship.

1 hour ago, LordCola said:

My problem with the SSD is not that it is to strong or to weak but that there seems to be only exactly one single list that works with it. That list ist an Assault SSD with JJ or Piet, with DCO/Brunson, Kallus, Gunnery Team, QLT, leading shots, H9 and Ravager + upgrades as you see fit. Always with no squads and exactly two Gozantis, one with Repair Crews and one with Comms Net and Hondo and or Vader sprinkled in for good measure. It is very rare to see any other SSD list be successful. That is really boring and I wisch more list variety was viable with this ship.

Is it that only one list is successful or is it that it's easier to start from what's good and make changes if needed? Be the change you wish to see in the meta. Try out Executor or a command or Tagge or whatever.

19 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Is it that only one list is successful or is it that it's easier to start from what's good and make changes if needed? Be the change you wish to see in the meta. Try out Executor or a command or Tagge or whatever.

Don't get me wrong, I am not calling for changes to the SSD (just yet 😋). The ship is far to new for that. My previous statement was merely an observation. The current state seems to be that there is only one viable SSD list. For now that is just fine but if in a year from now there still would be only this one successful SSD list I would be worried.

I wouldn’t be surprised if a year from now, we don’t see them at all, because the StarHawk has sent them packing...

once again hoping I’m wrong here.