How have people been playing Shield Toss on a minion with guard? I’ve been assuming the damage is assigned all at once so I haven’t been allowing myself to target both the minion and the villain in one use.

That's how I've done it as well. I think that's correct.

I would concur

Wouldn't the damage be applied one target at a time? Player chooses the order?

Card image for reference;

3 minutes ago, Majushi said:

Wouldn't the damage be applied one target at a time? Player chooses the order?

That's the way I see it. Because when Cap throws his shield, it doesn't hit everybody at the same time, it hits one, then the next one, and so on. I always play it that it hits the minion with guard first, then whoever else. It's what makes the most sense.

25 minutes ago, maniakmedic said:

That's the way I see it. Because when Cap throws his shield, it doesn't hit everybody at the same time, it hits one, then the next one, and so on. I always play it that it hits the minion with guard first, then whoever else. It's what makes the most sense.

Nope. There is nothing in this ability that would suggests that it happens anyway other than simultaneously. Thus, if you are engaged with a Guard minion, you can not also target the Villain with this attack.

That makes no thematic sense.

44 minutes ago, maniakmedic said:

That makes no thematic sense.

In this particular instance I think balance >>> theme.

1 hour ago, sverigesson said:

Nope. There is nothing in this ability that would suggests that it happens anyway other than simultaneously. Thus, if you are engaged with a Guard minion, you can not also target the Villain with this attack.

Is there any wording in the rules regarding things that happen simultaneously?

Didn't we get a ruling for Iron Man with his 'remove one threat from each scheme' being unable to remove threat from the main scheme while a Crisis scheme was in play, even if you're going to defeat the crisis scheme with the 1?

I would consider this pretty similar. It doesn't specify a sequence for the attacks, so I assume they are all simultaneous.

I would agree that you can't damage the villain with Shield Toss when you're engaged with a minion that has the guard keyword.

Think on the bright side though; you just saved yourself a card!

It is about the right time to have a pinned thread with Officially answered FAQs

Same would apply to Melee

1 hour ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

Same would apply to Melee

No, the damage from melee is 2 separate clauses - it isn’t “Deal 3 damage to 2 enemies” which would be simultaneous, it’s “Deal 3 Damage to an enemy. Deal 3 damage to another enemy”. You resolve the first sentence, then the second, so you could take out a Guard with the first damage and hit the villain with the second damage.

1 hour ago, FearLord said:

No, the damage from melee is 2 separate clauses - it isn’t “Deal 3 damage to 2 enemies” which would be simultaneous, it’s “Deal 3 Damage to an enemy. Deal 3 damage to another enemy”. You resolve the first sentence, then the second, so you could take out a Guard with the first damage and hit the villain with the second damage.

Ah yes! Well I unnecessarily made Armored Guard harder than I needed to last night then!

12 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

In this particular instance I think balance >>> theme.

Maybe but theme helps you remember the rules. It's like a mnemonic device. So it may be helpful to explore this issue he's having. I know if I can't resolve the theme of a ruling I do tend to resent the ruling even though I obviously adhere to it for game balance purposes. Also if we can't match theme to mechanics then what is the point? We might as well just play spider solitaire.

13 hours ago, maniakmedic said:

That makes no thematic sense.

In this instance I would consider that shield can't react to a dynamic situation. In that way Cap's targeting of the minions and villain is simultaneous. Cap pictures the angles of the room to try and hit all the enemies he is targeting, but that Guard changes that plan by literally jumping in front of the shield hit for the villain in the scene. So when the shield bounces from enemy to enemy it never has an opportunity to hit the villain since it bounces off his human shield jumping in front of the blow and continues onto the next enemy in the angle sequence that cap initiated.

5 minutes ago, phillos said:

In this instance I would consider that shield can't react to a dynamic situation. In that way Cap's targeting of the minions and villain is simultaneous. Cap pictures the angles of the room to try and hit all the enemies he is targeting, but that Guard changes that plan by literally jumping in front of the shield hit for the villain in the scene. So when the shield bounces from enemy to enemy it never has an opportunity to hit the villain since it bounces off his human shield jumping in front of the blow and continues onto the next enemy in the angle sequence that cap initiated.

I was actually thinking about the very same thing this morning. I think the prescribed thematic interpretation here is that once the shield is tossed, Cap can't change the way the shield ricochets around, an action he initially gauged under different conditions (i.e., the villain cannot be targeted).

Except in extreme cases, theme can always be adapted to rules without issues. Doing the reverse leads to overly complex rules with loads of special cases.

The games easy enough as is, I say let it hit whoever. That 4 damage doesn't really matter and it's much cooler to bonk that thing around. Love that card

I think strictly following the rules that you wouldn't be able to target the villain if you have minion with guard engaged with you.

As others point out, that stinks for the theme of the card but that's often an issue in games. Balance often wins that argument Might be a few ways to get around it through rulings, such as allowing attacks that target multiple characters to ignore guard, or allowing it if all minions with guard that are engaged with you will die from the attack.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 1:48 AM, Ascarel said:

I was actually thinking about the very same thing this morning. I think the prescribed thematic interpretation here is that once the shield is tossed, Cap can't change the way the shield ricochets around, an action he initially gauged under different conditions (i.e., the villain cannot be targeted).

The counter argument is that, once the shield is tossed and it K.O.'s that Guard minion first the minion no longer has the cognitive function to jump in the way of the shield bouncing it's merry way to hit the Villain.

29 minutes ago, Majushi said:

The counter argument is that, once the shield is tossed and it K.O.'s that Guard minion first the minion no longer has the cognitive function to jump in the way of the shield bouncing it's merry way to hit the Villain.

Captain America can’t control the Shield with his mind - he throws it at an angle that he’s calculated will bounce into additional people. If that’s interrupted, by someone jumping in the way or catching it or whatever ever, that can throw off his aim. If someone is really well protected by something it might not be possible for him to even throw it at his real target. It makes perfect sense that he can’t target the villain while they are being guarded...

1 hour ago, FearLord said:

Captain America can’t control the Shield with his mind - he throws it at an angle that he’s calculated will bounce into additional people. If that’s interrupted, by someone jumping in the way or catching it or whatever ever, that can throw off his aim. If someone is really well protected by something it might not be possible for him to even throw it at his real target. It makes perfect sense that he can’t target the villain while they are being guarded...

Unless he calculates that his toss will take out the guard first, leaving the villain unprotected.

But yeah, whatever.

The rules are pretty clear, and for balance I can see that Guard would still have to be relevant.

But the fluff excuses people are using are just as easily fluffed the other way if you want to.