Just now, JJ48 said:

I think his point was, does everyone need to be playing the same format? If you find someone else interested in a format, the two of you can arrange to play that a particular week without disrupting everyone else.

Point conceded. A group doesn't need to be only extended or only hyperspace.

33 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Well you need to specify format enough ahead of time that people can show up with appropriate lists prepared in my opinion. When you show up for group you shouldn't be spending that time figuring out lists and pulling cards and setting up ship tokens and such. It also helps avoid situations of guys plopping down hard counters and you don't want to show up with only extended lists and everyone else is doing hyperspace and doesn't want to play you. Everyone needs to be on the same page.

Just bring a list you want to play. If you want to arrange to play a specific format, let people know ahead of time that you are hoping to get (insert format here) practice in. Last week I played my Hyperspace list against an extended because there were no HS opponents available. I had a good time and still managed to learn some lessons about my list that proved valuable despite my opponent's list being "for a different format".

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Yeah, I think the, "Hyperspace is great for newbies," argument was much better back when it sounded like Hyperspace was just going to be everything 2E and only 2E, which never ended up happening.

I think this is the most valid point. New HS is bad for newbies, they are limited in list building and may have issues creating lists that work together, whereas a veteran player knows what ships are bad and what pilots to stay away from. I think a lot of older players are mad because a lot of the crutches are gone from HS, which I welcome. I am interested in HS tournaments from the view of seeing what people can come up with, not playing against regen 7b’s for 4 out of 6 games. I have been playing for years, have a big collection, and I am looking forward to using pilots I may not have used.

i am playing at my LGS tonight, using either 4 Skull fangs, or Fenn and 3 recruits. I have never ever flown Skulls or Recruits, their pilot cards are still pristine....

Give it a go, be imaginative. Don’t just pack it in because you can’t fly X for the millionth time.

4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

only 2E, which never ended up happening.

It did, in fact, happen. It happened in the last adjustment. Everything Hyperspace has a black box release for the first time ever.

We were never promised all of 2E releases and I don't think new players will need that either. Fewer options means that list building is easier, not harder. Choices only get harder as you add more and more and more options.

1 hour ago, Archangelspiv said:

I think this is the most valid point. New HS is bad for newbies, they are limited in list building and may have issues creating lists that work together, whereas a veteran player knows what ships are bad and what pilots to stay away from.

This is kind of backwards thinking in new HS. Things that were "Good" before were mostly taken out. Things that were "Bad" before were mostly buffed. It's anyone's guess what's good and bad in new-hyperspace-land (okay we all know that Iden with Hull Upgrade isn't going places but you know what I mean), and specifically removing Howl, Ensnare, etc. will make it significantly easier for newbies not to be absolutely trounced in the list-building phase.

Make no mistake: It's the veteran players that complain about losing Howl and Sinker. Newbies would hardly know the difference.

24 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It did, in fact, happen. It happened in the last adjustment. Everything Hyperspace has a black box release for the first time ever.

We were never promised all of 2E releases and I don't think new players will need that either. Fewer options means that list building is easier, not harder. Choices only get harder as you add more and more and more options.

For newbies, though, the "everything 2E" bit is rather important too, though. Remember that a newbie is less likely to be thoroughly familiar with the formats and less likely to have all the ships. Someone just starting the game who bought a Core Set, a TIE Interceptor, and an Inquisitors' TIE probably isn't going to feel a format is "newbie friendly" if he has to set aside half his ships and buy new ones before he can start playing.

Please note: I'm not criticizing Hyperspace (which sounds like a rather intriguing format); I'm just saying it seems geared more towards hardcore veterans than to newbies.

2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I'm just saying it seems geared more towards hardcore veterans than to newbies.

Maybe in that one aspect. But aren't there many where Hyperspace is more beginner friendly?

Fewer options means more understandable opposing lists and fewer maneuver dials to memorize, fewer ship abilities, pilot abilities etc.

More importantly, most unfun cards were removed. Some remain, but way fewer. That sounds more newbie friendly to me, as veterans generally build a higher tolerance over time and with their investment.

I think these two alone make Hyperspace so much more fun - for newbies and veterans - that it's not even close for me.

12 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Someone just starting the game who bought a Core Set, a TIE Interceptor, and an Inquisitors' TIE probably isn't going to feel a format is "newbie friendly" if he has to set aside half his ships and buy new ones before he can start playing.

What I'm saying is that it's certainly not not noob friendly. What a new player would have to put aside pales in comparison to what an entrenched player would. What a new player has to buy pales in comparison to most entrenched players' conversion costs. It is particularly nice to new players in the sense that

1) Everything they need is readily available, no conversion necessary

2) Stuff that creates a punishing experience for new players was totally pulled out

3) List-building is a lot more straightforward since the options are fewer

4) An actually bad list is almost difficult to make since all of the superpowered stuff was removed and the awful stuff was buffed.

12 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I'm just saying it seems geared more towards hardcore veterans than to newbies.

I just don't see it. What it's geared towards is people who want to compete . New players don't all want to compete and they shouldn't feel like they have to. Side note: Stores, make sure you have plenty of Extended support on offer as well. But for players that are interested in competing in Hyperspace, this new rotation makes that especially achievable for new players.

Will there be new players that buy in and don't know that Hyperspace exists? Sure, and they probably couldn't care less about Hyperspace. Play extended all you want; it's my preferred format anyway. But if you are buying ships because you want to play a competitive game, they could hardly have given you a straighter path with a clearer roadmap.

I think that's more or less what I'm getting at.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I just don't see it. What it's geared towards is people who want to compete . New players don't all want to compete and they shouldn't feel like they have to. Side note: Stores, make sure you have plenty of Extended support on offer as well. But for players that are interested in competing in Hyperspace, this new rotation makes that especially achievable for new players.

Will there be new players that buy in and don't know that Hyperspace exists? Sure, and they probably couldn't care less about Hyperspace. Play extended all you want; it's my preference anyway. But if you are buying ships because you want to play a competitive game, they could hardly have given you a straighter path with a clearer roadmap.

I think that's more or less what I'm getting at.

Eh, maybe that's it. I guess I more or less assume new players will be casuals until they say otherwise.

On 1/22/2020 at 12:29 AM, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

If you are talking about MtG, Standard is a primary format because it (1) encourages card sales and (2) it evens the playing field in THAT environment. FFG went a different route by making 2.0 rather than banning cards/ships/pilots outright in a 1.0 setting. FFG also has points adjustments as a leveler. If WotC could modify the mana cost on cards, then Standard would make less sense in regard to reason 2.

If I were talking exclusively about MtG I would have said that. There are many other games that operate this way, and the points you've made (whilst valid) are not the only reasons games do this. The increase in ship counts for this hyperspace season suggests FFG are possibly gunning for an uptick in sales as well. That being said it could also be argued that they have done this to try and balance out Ace play. We can't assume there is a sole reason for game devs doing anything in terms of competitive structure.

On 1/21/2020 at 5:23 PM, DR4CO said:

Speak for yourself. The entire local scene here in Brisbane is playing nothing but Hyperspace at the moment. Just the fact that people don't have to worry about stuff like Inquisitors, regen Delta-7Bs, Whisper or Ensnare has been enough incentive.

As for the first round of Store Champs being HS, if my local stores were to try and run them as Extended (and therefore make people have to worry about stuff like Inquisitors, regen Delta-7Bs, Whisper and Ensnare again) I am fairly certain there would be an actual riot.

Take your own advice maybe? Or just take my comment for what it was, a means to give weight to my over-arcing point, just as yours was used.

Pedantry aside, I'm not against Hyperspace, I've made that pretty clear. Nor am I against a choice for players. For casual games my local community avoid these archetypes too, but when the prevalent and primary competitive format is the less restrictive format, you can't expect to walk in to your LGS and have everyone one of your opponents heed your request to play the more restrictive format. It's totally fine if your entire community is in total agreeance (and frequent communication), but you can't press that agenda against a stranger that just wants to have a game, nor can you expect a competitive player to stop practicing for tournaments when your preferred format is the lesser used format. If it were the other way around, with the more restrictive format being the primary format, this would be much less of an issue.

As far as the store champs goes, I agree there would most likely be some player backlash at varying levels in most cases. My point was that they aren't premiere events. They are in no way adjudicated by FFG directly. With the minimal and delayed correspondence FFGop that we're seeing out here, if a store decided to run it as extended, there would be minimal if any repercussions on behalf of FFG. They most likely wouldn't ever know it happened. The management structure of the lower tiers of competitive play is too loose for this to have any real bearing on stores and local communities. I'm fairly sure if my local stores were to poll their players on which their preferred format would be, the majority would vote extended in this new/current season. The only repercussions stores would feel would be that of the local players.

On 1/21/2020 at 5:04 PM, Managarmr said:

One: you have to be careful, not making a game too expensive, by forcing players to buy new ships all the time. Old players with extensive collections do not care that much. But for a new player aiming for competitive play? E.g. a newbie who has just bought 2 or more Nantexes? Would be really sad now, if HS was the format.

X-wing ships are not cheap nowadays, together with the complexity creep accelerating really fast right now, these can be steep hurdles for new players interested on competitive play!

Also people have different preferences what they like to fly (e.g. some Scum players really dislike the Mando dominance in HS scum ships)

Two: in this case FFG would have to SERIOUSLY step up their distribution and get a grip on releases. Cause in Southern America, East Europe, North Europe (do not know for Asia) you really have problems to get enough of the new ships (or at all) before the already next points change comes (while simultaneously Australia and Barnes and Nobles releases come weeks too early).

It could be argued they are doing exactly what you outlined in your first point. 5 X-wings, 4 Fearless Fangs, 7 Fireballs etc. etc. the ship counts are going up, and that will most likely lead to increased unit sales. I don't personally believe that's the case (or at least their sole goal) but it could be argued that it seems that way.

In regards to your second point, I think that is a major issue regarding of which format is king. Their distribution is also terrible in Asia-Pacific, that one case where we ended up getting it seems to have been an anomaly. If they want new players and continue to grow the game, adequate stock levels and equal distribution is important regardless of game mode.

So, thinking further on the subject of FFG wanting OP to encourage sales of Second Edition ships... the new Hyperspace format does give space for them to redefine Extended format to be all rereleased Second Edition product. You then create a ‘Classic’ format for First Ed ships and throw that format down a dark hole, which is how WOTC tackled this issue originally with Magic.

14 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

So, thinking further on the subject of FFG wanting OP to encourage sales of Second Edition ships... the new Hyperspace format does give space for them to redefine Extended format to be all rereleased Second Edition product. You then create a ‘Classic’ format for First Ed ships and throw that format down a dark hole, which is how WOTC tackled this issue originally with Magic.

For FFG it definitely makes sense to avoid reprinting some of the less viable/marketable ships.

Hyperspace is definitely turning into the limited format.

So I could see extended morphing into the 2.0 catalog but I am curious how many reprints they would do before they felt it was justifiable to pull a plug 1.0 conversions.

14 hours ago, reqent said:

For FFG it definitely makes sense to avoid reprinting some of the less viable/marketable ships.

Hyperspace is definitely turning into the limited format.

So I could see extended morphing into the 2.0 catalog but I am curious how many reprints they would do before they felt it was justifiable to pull a plug 1.0 conversions.

I can't remember where I heard it, but FFG said that they aren't doing any more 1.0 reprints for 2.0 for a while. Don't know how they will flesh out the waves now Ep 9 is done, but it shall surely be interesting to see what they do.

I consider myself a complete newbie at the game. So here is my take:

You cannot have a "new-player-friendly" format that bans certain ships completely.

Imagine a new player who purchased a ship from amazon, from someone on ebay, or simply got one as a present from granny. Are you going to tell him he can't use his brand new plastic ship because it's not "legal"? Imagine he is a fan of the Rebel's show and got himself the Ghost. "Sorry kid. Put that away. Want to buy some B-Wings? They are articulated!"

If FFG plans to keep making money out of the game, they can either suck dry the already heavily invested player base, or enlarge the number of players coming into the game some of which will spend hundreds of dollars in it. I hope they choose the second path.

So, if you want to attract new players, let them play with their toys. By all means, tackle all the NPEs and abusive combos by banning pilots, upgrades, obstacles or even full rules (no tractoring? No ions?). But if some newbie got himself a Nantex, let him fly it. Does he have a Lambda, the cool emperor shuttle? Let him fly it. Otherwise, you are ushering him away. Is there any ship in the game that could be an issue even if flown by it's cheapest generic pilot and no upgrades?

If FFG needs an alternative competitive format to "shake-up the meta", push sales of new models or whatever else, great, go ahead. But maybe you won't get that and also a welcoming format for new people to the game.

Just my 2 imperial credits.

On 1/21/2020 at 3:43 AM, gadwag said:

X-Wing ships are still significantly cheaper than any other miniatures game

that isnt true.

X-wing requires a $40 core, a $40 game mat, and then whatever you want to fly in addition. this is at absolute minimum $40 (for 2 small expansions) but most lists require $80 to $100 of further investment. youre getting in cheap if you buy a core, game mat, a deci and vader at $150.

Warhammer Beastgraves cheapest buy in is $70, which is a full game for 2 players.

Necromunda is $125 for 2 players. 2 full factions, a board, terrain, and all components. this is enough for 2 players to make dozens of unique lists each.

Kill team core box has 2 full faction lists worth of minis, a board, terrain, and all game components and rules. costs $150. enough for 2 players to split. you dont really need anything else unless you want to do KTs version of Epic.

Warcry offers the same for 2 players at $170.

Thats just GW games.

Gaslands is a core set and a hotwheels car, likely under $60.

Magic has multiple formats you can play for a $20 or less buy in.

TLDR: X-wing is NOT the game you play cause its cheap

The mat has never been necessary.

And the core set is even less necessary now.

4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

that isnt true.

X-wing requires a $40 core, a $40 game mat, and then whatever you want to fly in addition. this is at absolute minimum $40 (for 2 small expansions) but most lists require $80 to $100 of further investment. youre getting in cheap if you buy a core, game mat, a deci and vader at $150.

Warhammer Beastgraves cheapest buy in is $70, which is a full game for 2 players.

Gaslands is a core set and a hotwheels car, likely under $60.

Magic has multiple formats you can play for a $20 or less buy in.

Xwing does not require a mat. Additionally, aside from the core learn to play with three ships, the game is meant to be you buying one list not two players lists. So only tack on the cost for the rest of your starter list. I could see $80 at full msrp.

Warhammer underworlds (of which Beastgrave is set 3) may have what you need for a two player game in the core box, but you cannot “split” the core anymore than xwing. It’s slightly more ready for two in the sense you’re playing with legal warband sizes, but that’s about it. Although I’d argue the cost of a competitive WHU setup is far higher than some xwing ones, but that’s a whole other discussion not talking about getting people started.

Also, WHU is somewhere between a minis game and a card game with how it’s deck system works.

Gaslands? Ok, that one is fair in that you can get started with a $20 rule book and some 99 cent cars. Gotta get dice and templates somewhere (or scan/print the ones out of the back of the book).

Lastly, magic is a card game not a minis game so it’s really apples and oranges.

TL;DR xwing is still one of the more budget friendly options out there in miniatures gaming.

This certainly applies to X-Wing

12 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

I consider myself a complete newbie at the game. So here is my take:

You cannot have a "new-player-friendly" format that bans certain ships completely.

Imagine a new player who purchased a ship from amazon, from someone on ebay, or simply got one as a present from granny. Are you going to tell him he can't use his brand new plastic ship because it's not "legal"? Imagine he is a fan of the Rebel's show and got himself the Ghost. "Sorry kid. Put that away. Want to buy some B-Wings? They are articulated!"

If FFG plans to keep making money out of the game, they can either suck dry the already heavily invested player base, or enlarge the number of players coming into the game some of which will spend hundreds of dollars in it. I hope they choose the second path.

So, if you want to attract new players, let them play with their toys. By all means, tackle all the NPEs and abusive combos by banning pilots, upgrades, obstacles or even full rules (no tractoring? No ions?). But if some newbie got himself a Nantex, let him fly it. Does he have a Lambda, the cool emperor shuttle? Let him fly it. Otherwise, you are ushering him away. Is there any ship in the game that could be an issue even if flown by it's cheapest generic pilot and no upgrades?

If FFG needs an alternative competitive format to "shake-up the meta", push sales of new models or whatever else, great, go ahead. But maybe you won't get that and also welcoming format for new people to the game.

Just my 2 imperial credits.

So we are assuming that new players start there venture into X-wing with a Hyperspace tournament? Going in completely uninformed into a tournament?

That player you describe can play with whatever ship he/she bought. At home with friends, at the lgs game nights etc. And even at an extended tournament. Which are scheduled to be more of in comparison to Hyperspace tournaments this year anyway.

After some experience in the game the player can decide if he/she wants to play Hyperspace or not.

Having different formats to play the game will make it more appealing to a bigger variety of players I believe and keeps it fresh for another group of players who otherwise might lose interest and quit instead of buying some more of it. But I think these formats are mostly of interest to experienced/tournament players.

29 minutes ago, Revanur said:

So we are assuming that new players start there venture into X-wing with a Hyperspace tournament? Going in completely uninformed into a tournament?

That player you describe can play with whatever ship he/she bought. At home with friends, at the lgs game nights etc. And even at an extended tournament. Which are scheduled to be more of in comparison to Hyperspace tournaments this year anyway.

The point of the argument you responded to was a response to others calling hyperspace “new friendly” because of less choices. There was also some call somewhere to make extended “all 2.0 rereleases” and have everything else just fall off into some third mode.

Both of which would be bad for a new player.

That poster nor anyone else really thinks a new person heads straight for a store champ without playing a game somewhere before

16 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

The point of the argument you responded to was a response to others calling hyperspace “new friendly” because of less choices. There was also some call somewhere to make extended “all 2.0 rereleases” and have everything else just fall off into some third mode.

Both of which would be bad for a new player.

That poster nor anyone else really thinks a new person heads straight for a store champ without playing a game somewhere before

Even if it's a response to that conversation, then it is still a strange point in that argument, which I disagreed with. As it still implied Hyperspaces current form as being a bad thing to exist for new players. As it would scare of new players according to the post I reply to. Which I think is untrue as new players don't care about formats until they get serious about wanting to play competitively.

My point was: want to have a "curated" competitive format? Go ahead. I think it's a good idea. But if you end up banning ships completely, then it's no longer beginner friendly.

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

That poster nor anyone else really thinks a new person heads straight for a store champ without playing a game somewhere before

Exactly

1 hour ago, LUZ_TAK said:

My point was: want to have a "curated" competitive format? Go ahead. I think it's a good idea. But if you end up banning ships completely, then it's no longer beginner friendly.

I can understand your point. Just thought the argument you used to support your point was strange as I find the player you described very different from a player that will care about tournament formats.

Maybe we should divide this between beginning tournament player and new player to the complete game.

Then indeed Hyperspace is not beginner friendly to the completely new player, but also not important to that player either. I do think it is friendly for someone playing their first tournament. As the player has a lot less possible interactions and ways his/her opponents can move around to remember/know.

On 1/24/2020 at 9:24 AM, Stay OT Leader said:

So, thinking further on the subject of FFG wanting OP to encourage sales of Second Edition ships... the new Hyperspace format does give space for them to redefine Extended format to be all rereleased Second Edition product. You then create a ‘Classic’ format for First Ed ships and throw that format down a dark hole, which is how WOTC tackled this issue originally with Magic.

*Explicit* that.

Most of my faction/collection is 1e release only. I couldn't be more vehemently opposed to this.